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Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 17:31
I have a question for our resident lens experts as I know I am not but I do love all the bargains I seem to find when it comes to lenses.. I picked up the front and rear elements for this lens from the bay. I have an old Acme ( patent September 14, 1915) shutter and the elements screw in just fine. Now I don't know if they are spaced right and probably not. If I try to screw them in real tight the shutter binds. Do I need spacers? How does one tell? How much of a difference does it make? Do I just shoot something on the 8x10 and find out? I'm sorry if this question is insulting to any of my esteemed lens experts but I just don't know.
The elements look like they are almost brand new and very, very clean. They are from 1948 I believe. # 769798.

Thanks,

Jim

cdholden
20-Dec-2010, 17:37
Jim,
I've got a 19" APO Artar (pre-Red Dot) that lives in an Acme #4. I'm not sure about direct placement of that focal length in your shutter, but if it won't focus (requiring spacers or reduction in collar length), that will be apparent on the ground glass.

Best of luck,
Chris

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 17:43
Chris, thanks. I'm looking for a board to mount it on.

Jim

Steve Hamley
20-Dec-2010, 17:49
Jim,

My Ilex #4 for my 16-1/2" Red Dot Artar is 1.880" front-to-rear. If yours isn't within a few thousandths of this, I'd call Adam Dau at S.K. Grimes and see if he has spacing information because he's certainly seen many in barrel and in shutter.

If your shutter is very close to this, then you need to proceed to determine if the iris is in the same place relative to a reference (factory mount) lens.

Cheers, Steve

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 17:59
Steve, thanks. I don't have digital calipers but my calipers are awful close to what you measured.

Jim

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 19:19
Wow, I mounted the lens on a board and focused it. Shutter works fine. I'll have to run some film through to be sure but it looks good on the GG. Now I have to redo the F stop scale.

BTW, the nice thing is that this whole set up only cost me $64.00
Jim

cdholden
20-Dec-2010, 20:04
Jim,
Spend another $20-40 and get a decent, yet inexpensive micrometer/caliper. Athletic tape and a fine tip sharpie will make a temporary iris scale (replace before the adhesive comes out in the summer months) help you note the important apertures you want to use on your shutter... and you've got a caliper to measure with for when this happens again!

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 21:02
Chris, good idea! I do need a digital caliper. I know where I'm going tomorrow.Can't wait to use the lens.

Jim

c.d.ewen
20-Dec-2010, 21:25
Jim:

I've got a lens marked: "Goerz Apochromatic Aratr F:9.5 Focus 16 1/2 In No 755598"

Close in serial number, but not quite the same company.

For what it's worth, my barrel measures 1.741".

Charley

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 22:26
Charley, I appreciate this information. I've mounted the lens on a board and put it on the 8x10 and it comes into sharp focus. So I guess I'm okay. I'll shoot some images when I can and let everyone know how they come out. Looks like a great lens if everything is right. So far so good.

Jim

Curt
20-Dec-2010, 22:36
Jim those lens elements suck so you should send them to me right away! I had a Kodak Ektar that did the same as what you described, when the rear was screwed in all the way the aperture wouldn't move, I put a spacer in and it focused and worked fine afterward.

My 16 1/2" RD Artar is in a #4 Acme Synchro Ilex shutter. The elements are spaced 40.50 mm. There are two aluminum inserts or extenders on the front and back of the shutter but the elements are 40.50 mm apart at the threaded end, where the base of the element is in contact with the aluminum extender. The aluminum was added to make the spacing correct.

I have a 19" RD Artar that that fits into this shutter also and it works fine, I tried it one day just to see.

Jim Fitzgerald
20-Dec-2010, 23:42
Curt, thanks for the info. It looks like the spacing is okay. I'll get some good calipers and check it. Everything is in focus. It is kind of funny having a shutter. It is only the second one I own. With my 10 minute exposures I guess my barrel lenses are okay. It does look nice though. BTW I have a 19" Artar in barrel on the way. Got this one for a good price also.

Jim

Jim Graves
20-Dec-2010, 23:52
Jim ... I think you should bring the whole settup and your new 14x17 camera to Per's Tonopah workshop in May and let Jim Galli take a look at it. As a bonus, you'll get at least ten great new shots and see an encyclopedia of lenses.

Curt
20-Dec-2010, 23:54
Jim send me the next good priced lens when you find one. Ha, Ha. I'm going to use the 19" on the 11x14 when it's done. I have to decide if I want a single or double extension, I don't think I need that long of a bellow draw, I'm not going for closeup photography. I checked the Custom Bellows site and they make either a square corner or a "truncated" or clipped corner for their bellows. The square corner is old fashioned looking and really quite nice. Which one did you get for the 14X17? With long exposures the only reason to have the shutter is for "T" or "B" but who knows maybe 1 second.

I've only used the 16 1/2" RD on an 8x10, have you used it on the 11x14 camera? I assume it wouldn't cover movements and would have to be stopped down but that's OK.

Curt

Jim Fitzgerald
21-Dec-2010, 00:05
Jim, I can't make it to see Jim but one day I will. He still needs to see the $90.00 16" Darlot in got off of e-bay. I'm glad he was asleep at the wheel. Just shot with it about a week ago and it is a marvelous lens. That one is going to the grave with me.

Curt, I ended up with the truncated bellows as that is what is on my other cameras. Keep the look the same you know. I've got about 32" of extension on the 11x14 and I've never used all of it yet Went with double extension on mine.
The 14x17 has a fold down rail like the Folmer & Schwing and is 29" without an extension rail. 36" of bellows on this one I think is more than enough and I think it is going to come it at about 22 LBS. I should have it done by first of the year.
I just got the 16 1/2" Artar tonight so have not used it yet on anything. Hope to soon. Should cover the 11x14 stopped down.

Jim

Curt
21-Dec-2010, 00:19
Thanks, that's good to know, maybe a single extension is plenty, I was figuring that I could get in the neighborhood of 34" with it. If I get hard up I could make an extension but hey why make it more complicated than it already is.

This winter is a good time to make a camera isn't it. I've got the rack and pinion but I have to make the other hardware. Brass is so easy to work with and pleasant too but oh so heavy when it's all added up. I really don't like working with aluminum that much but it's easy to mill too. I'm leaning toward brass on this like my first camera which was brass.

Curt

Jim Graves
21-Dec-2010, 00:48
How come you guys aren't out watching (or shooting) the eclipse?

Curt ... are you going to Tonopah again?

Curt
21-Dec-2010, 07:40
Jim, I saw some of it but the clouds ruined the last part, I saw it 3/4 covered. I'd go to Tonopah if I didn't have a previous engagement. I was all set to go then when I was reminded, I'd like to see all of the guys again sometime. The 5Churches workshop was an exhausting one that took a lot of planning and cost a bunch to do.

I would like to do a John Sexton workshop and a Formulary carbon workshop along with a Yosemite carbon workshop with Vaughn. It's beginning to look like this year is going to be void of workshops. If Vaughn has a Newport OR workshop I'll be there for it, I had the best time at the last one and wouldn't miss another for anything. There is another shorter and closer get together that I will attend later in the summer.

How's the NuArc working for you? I have to move mine from the garage to the second floor and it's on a stand and top heavy. I'm going to have to take it apart and I'll worry all the time about the glass and breaking something. It's a wonder it came in one piece being loaded on a pallet with shrink wrap in the back of a UPS freight truck and being moved around by fork lifts.

Curt

Jim Fitzgerald
21-Dec-2010, 07:48
Well, down here it has been raining for days so nothing but clouds. Can't see a thing. Tonopah would be nice but I have other commitments and only so much vacation time!Going to be teaching a lot also.

jim

E. von Hoegh
22-Dec-2010, 08:22
My 16 1/2 marked "Goerz Apochromat Artar F:9.5 focus 16 1/2in. No 756525" has a barrel that measures 1.6800" from seating surface to seating surface. The barrel is brass, but the cells appear to be bronze.

Jim Fitzgerald
22-Dec-2010, 08:30
Thanks for measuring your lens. There seems to be some tolerance differences based on the measurements I've seen. Looks like mine falls in between everyone measurements. Thanks everyone.


Jim

E. von Hoegh
22-Dec-2010, 08:40
Jim,

1.880", 1.6800", and 40.50mm (1.594") is WAY more than a tolerance! Goerz did some superlative machining; when I snug - just slightly snug - the barrel into the mounting flange, I can no longer unscrew the rear cell. Loosen the barrel in the flange, and the cell unscrews smoothly and easily.

The lenses destined for shutter mounting may have had the cells made to different dimensions, as well.

I'm dyslexic, so I'll double check my measurement later.

c.d.ewen
22-Dec-2010, 09:47
I'm dyslexic, so I'll double check my measurement later.

I'll claim I am also - my lens is actually marked "Artar", not "Aratr" :o

Additionally, I'll beg pity for being arithmetically challenged, as the barrel really measures 1.741". See the photo. One of these days I'll spend the money for a digital readout but, as you must know, it's hard to leave the analog world. :)

I've found that measuring barrels with a caliper, particularly a smaller one, i.e., 6", leads to a great deal of confusion. Taking a 6" caliper to this barrel, I can find areas that measure between 1.738" and 1.742", depending on how flat you get get the caliper to sit. Using a 12" caliper narrows the range down to 1.739" and 1.741". I've resolved to use a depth micrometer with the barrel sitting on ground granite, and take a series of measurements while rotating the barrel, then flipping it over and rotating it again. Then I make a decision on what the measurement "should be".

The S/N on E. von Hoegh's exemplar is less than 1,000 from mine, but differs substantially in barrel length. That's only mildly surprising. See the second photo, of two 300mm Dagors, both Serie III No 6's, that also have substantially different barrel lengths.

I don't know what kind of metal my lens casings are made out of; some sort of red brass (lots of copper, I suppose), but whether or not it's bronze, I can't tell. The bright shiny thing around the top of the lens in my first post is a 67mm filter adapter I made to screw onto the front.

Charley

E. von Hoegh
22-Dec-2010, 12:06
It is, indeed, 1.6800 as per B&S micrometer and Pierre Roche 6" dial calipers, both of which agree with the gauge blocks.
There's that big slot in the Artar's barrel, how does that relate to the differences? Mine is dead square.

c.d.ewen
22-Dec-2010, 13:05
There's that big slot in the Artar's barrel, how does that relate to the differences? Mine is dead square.

Measuring from the end of the barrel to the beginning of the opening, mine is roughly 0.2" closer to the front of the barrel.

The iris is 0.910" from the front end of the barrel, 0.780" from the rear end.

Charley

Jim Fitzgerald
22-Dec-2010, 19:23
Again, I say thanks to all. I guess the real test is the images I can produce with the lens, is it not? Hopefully I got lucky and if not then I guess I'll have to make another Walnut barrel like I did for the 13" Commercial Ektar that works damn good!

Jim

E. von Hoegh
23-Dec-2010, 10:19
OK. The distance from the center of the front element to the center of the rear element comes to 2.1275", about. I measured this with a mike having carbide anvils, so was very gentle in bringing the anvils in contact with the (much softer) glass. It could be a few tenths less.
It seems to me that this is the only dimension that matters, assuming the lenses in comparison are made with the same glasses, therefore to the same "prescription".

Dan Fromm
23-Dec-2010, 12:04
E., I don't know the various Goerz companies' practice but I am acquainted with Boyer's. Boyer bought their glass in batches, measured properties on arrival and recalculated the prescriptions of lenses to take best advantage of the glasses on hand's properties. This because the glass they bought had some batch-to-batch variation in RI and Abbe number; it wasn't ever exactly to specification.

E. von Hoegh
23-Dec-2010, 14:53
Yep, I think that is pretty much what all lens makers did/do.