A Tale of Two Lenses

[Steven Tribe]

Photo no. 1 shows a Rapid Rectilinear "Optimus" for 9x7" marketed by the London Stereoscopic Company.
Photo no. 2 shows a Rapid Rectilinear "Optimus" for 9x7" sold by the actual makers Perken, Son & Rayment.
In other words, identical lenses.
The first is in original lacquer with more than average loss of lacquer, brass discolouration. The second has been recently relacquered as the brass is still pale in colour.
Both were bought on e**y uk.
The first in 2009 by the poster for between 10 and 20 uk pounds.
The second a few days ago for 268 uk pounds.

Is this a confirmation of the increasing interest in RR's? Or is it just that product presentation means everything?

[eddie]

prices have been rising on most everything. RR just the same.

not really comparing apples to apples. one has no flange, no hood, no cap. if you were to have those items made they would cost another 250-300$....that puts it right in line with the "complete" lens. also rebranded lenses get less than original.....

veritos do not seem to be rising much if any.

ask garrett he will tell you shinny lenses get more. i do accident repair on cars. i shine things at work. no way am i doing it home. i like the older look anyhow.

[Matt_Bigwood]

Slightly off topic, but I've noticed the price of 178mm f2.5 Aero Ektars going through the roof - I bought one about five years ago for £33 (wish I still had it) and have seen one sell for over £1000 this year on ebay, and regularly they sell for hundreds of pounds.

[GPS]

Nothing to complain about, Steven. Get to work...;)

[Steven Tribe]

Eddie, it came with the flange. And this version (it was on the market for decades)never had a hood.
"Rebranded" - more like "Linhof selected"!! The London Stereoscopic Company had at least a good reputation as P, S & P. P, S & P never bothered with serial no. but LSC did!

[goamules]

I'd agree w/ Eddie, the higher priced lens is complete and shiny. Add 150% to the price of a ratty one. But it also depends on the day/market on the auction site. We've all seen one petzval go for a ton, while 6 others go for less than 200 dollars in a week. There is also a trickle down effect with brass lenses, where everyone hopes each type will increase in value. So they bid more and more...and the value increases!

[Steven Tribe]

Having taken a good look at my Optimus, I have decided it falls into the category "in need of refurbishment". Mainly because the seller used "unauthorised" methods to be able to read the engraving back then.

[Steven Tribe]

And this is what lens no. 1 looks like to-day.

[GPS]

And this is what lens no. 1 looks like to-day.

Finally you got the message...:) You have some good lens there, must be pretty rare and expensive...

[Steven Tribe]

There are thousands of RR/Aplanats around. This was often forgotten in one of my boxes - as it needed a new set of Waterhouse stops. The "Optimus" (Perken, Son and Rayment) were made for 20 years at least. The right "yellow" tinge in the lacquer comes after about 10 years!

[GPS]

There are thousands of RR/Aplanats around.
...!

But a lens with that glitter cannot be any of them...
After the time of clockwork shutters brass lenses were not often made. It wasn't up to the Fine Art Schneider that we could see some nice brass again - and heck, what the price of brass went up in that time...;)

[renes]

Anyone knows what focal lenght is 'Optimus' 5x7"? Could it be 7-inch?

Can't find any lenses data of Perken Son and Rayment.

[Steven Tribe]

I found the data for P,S & P through google at the time. They gave not only covering sizes but also focal length. It was not a "nice" catalogue - just machine text scanned adverts in a journal (something like P#ken, Smith and Nayment!).
Will do a quick search for you.

[Richard Rankin]

An Optimus 5x7 should be right under 9". A 9x7, like the one I have, is 12"

Richard

[Steven Tribe]

I found the list of focal length and sizes covered, but the layout was degraded, so I can't say for certain the match.
It is not easy as they are many sizes and includes 5x7, 5x8, 9x7, 8x10 etc.

They were made in following sizes:

5,6,7,8,9,10,12,1?, and 18"

So 12" is 9x7, 10" is full plate, 9" is probably 8x5" and 8" is 7x5", perhaps?

[renes]

Thanks Richard and Steven.

If 7-inch "Optimus" was in the foci line, than I will try to find it. But most of the time I see 5x7" and it seems to be 8" or 9".

[Steven Tribe]

7" could well be the size which is labelled for 1/2 plate.
The corresponding (original) RR for Dallmeyer had the following:

1/4 plate 4"
5x4 6"
6x5 8.25"
full plate 11"

[Richard Rankin]

There is supposed to be a 6.75" for 5x6 according to the Lens VM, but I've never seen one.

Richard

[renes]

I have just checked it too, it says 5.5in for 5x4, 6.75in for 6x5, 8.8in for 5x7, 12in for 7x9... I never seen 6x5" as well, hope I will find one.

[cyberjunkie]

There is an f/6 version, sold as "Rapid Euryscope" (and also as "Portrait RR", as per the VadeMecum), which should be one of the most affordable RR lenses with more than average speed.
I have seen some of them on the bay, and i purchased one, with the intention to try it wide open.
These lenses have an iris diaphragm, and the build quality is at least average.
Payed mine 78 USD, plus shipping from Holland.
Cheaper than most f/6 RR's, and a lot cheaper than my Versar...

I am very far from understanding Ebay price dynamics for LF vintage lenses.
What's quite clear is that brand name plays a major role :D


have fun

CJ

[Steven Tribe]

There were quite a lot of makers of F6 aplanats who followed in the footsteps of Voigtländer - using the new glass, I think. Not too keen on giving the names here as I need a couple with the right coverage.

[cyberjunkie]

My knowledge is more limited than yours, of course. It's just a recent interest for me.
I didn't pay a lot of attention to Aplanats/RR's, until i found that they can be much better than what i thought. Especially faster types, with speed > f/8, can be used as nice portrait lenses, even today.

Unfortunately the lenses made by the most respected brands are not cheap.
Faster Voigtlander and Suter Aplanats are a good example. Extremely fast types like Dallmeyer Portrait RR f/3 should be rare and very, very expensive.
A Goerz Lynkeioskop isn't exactly cheap either, as a few french lenses i have seen on sale.
Other makers could be more affordable, like a Meyer Rapid Aristoskop, or Busch Aplanats of medium speed (not the f/4 Portrait Aplanat, though!).
Most other makers should be quite affordable, i have seen Beck, Laach, Fritsch, Ernemann, Detective Aplanats from various makers, and many others... most of them between f/6 and f/7, sold for affordable prices.
Most (if not all) of them were probably made with "new glass".
Nevertheless, P, S & R Optimus f/6 lenses seem to be underappreciated, and get routinely sold for very little.
The same model i own, with an early fashion iris diaphragm, was seen on Ebay UK a good number of times, in the last two years or so.
Mine came with no flange, which is a nuisance, but i don't have to make new waterhouse stops, at least :D

One interesting thing: while other makers suggest to use a 12" FL for 8x10" format, the Optimus is engraved for 7x9". I am sure that the lens would cover the 8x10" format stopped down a bit, but i am not so sure that the corners would be sharp, if shot wide open. It should definitely illuminate the format, cause i don't think that there is any mechanical vignetting (used only in recent lenses, AFAIK).
I wouldn't complain if the lens gets mildly soft at full aperture, quite the contrary, in fact!

have fun

CJ

[Steven Tribe]

I am absolutely sure (well I have actually done it!) that the 9x7 Optimus covers 10x8" quite easily.
The Goerz Lynkeioskop series C, which has from F5.5 to F6.3 is the one I was thinking about. But this is not a cheap buy on E**y - but it is elsewhere.
RRs/Aplanats were often labelled for coverage (in makers' catalogues) differently for Portrait and Landscapes.
Dallmeyer gives the 13" as Port/Land coverage Full Plate/10x8".

[cyberjunkie]

I am absolutely sure (well I have actually done it!) that the 9x7 Optimus covers 10x8" quite easily.
The Goerz Lynkeioskop series C, which has from F5.5 to F6.3 is the one I was thinking about. But this is not a cheap buy on E**y - but it is elsewhere.


Good! I am very happy to learn that the 7x9" Optimus actually covers the larger format.
Do you have any idea about the vintage of the lens? (see the picture i posted)

I think there is one Lynkeioskop on the bay right now, but the back glass is cracked.
You are right about prices, many lenses get sold for prices i wouldn't pay, even if i had a much thicker wallet :)
Some time ago i used to go to camera fairs held in my area. In the last years i didn't go anymore, because Internet auctions were definitely cheaper.
One month ago a friend went to one of the larger fairs (in Italy) and told me that there was a very big diaphragm lens holder, that wasn't sold, despite the asking price of around 100 euros (which included something else that i forgot).
A similar item was sold for more than 250 euros, about the same time, on Ebay EU.
Of course there are items that are very popular, and looked for, in one country, and that get limited interest in other places, but i think that it's probably the right time to start to move my old tired ass, once again, to try to score some nice find :D
Buying stuff from a computer keyboard is very easy and very comfortable, it's a true pity that i haven't regained interest in vintage LF gears a few years before! Not so late to miss all the cheap stuff, though...

have fun

CJ

[Steven Tribe]

Yes it (was) a nice size no. 7 18x24 to 30x30cm. This is huge internal flake,I think, rather than a "crack". RR's seem to mange well with surface damage but this is over the limit. It just might be possible to recement and get rid of the fracture glass/glass phase problems at the same time.
I can't date the F6 P,S & R, but they were a late starting firm.