Is it 7 or 8?

[Shen45]

I am not a ZS user as such but have a question that has intrigued me for a while.

Assuming z3 is the shadow reading to determine the exposure for the shot in front of you, which zone do you as an individual photographer assign as the highlight value?

The same scene with 3 and 7 will definitely produce a different negative compared to the same scene pegged at 3 and 8.

I'm looking at this to understand as where you would position your normal shadow and highlight with the ZS, and which value you use for the out limit.

Also if you are shooting a scene that has an obvious z3 but the highest value is say z6 how do you accurately determine a genuine highlight value?

[Gem Singer]

For black and white film:

Place the shadow areas in the scene (where you still want to maintain some detail) in Zone III and let the highlights fall where they may.

Read the brightest highlight areas in the scene

A 5 stop spread between the highlights and the shadows gets normal development (ZIII-ZVII).

More than a 5 stop spread gets reduced development (ZIII-ZVIII).

Less than a 5 stop spread gets additional development (ZIII-ZVI).

Using a Pyro film developer also helps to reduce the chances of blowing-out the highlights where there is more than a 5 stop spread.

[Preston]

Steve, Gem's advice is right on. If you would like more info on place-fall, and expanded and contracted development, give Ansel Adams', 'The Negative' a read.

--P

[Shen45]

I suppose my question is based on not what I know or don't know about the ZS but more on the conflicting information presented by different photographers.

Most I concur use z3 to set the exposure but I have read often many people seem to use z7 as the anchor for the brightest highlight while others use z8 for the same "brightest highlight". I use BTZS but not the ZS functionality of the Palm software. Simply placing the highlight on z7 as opposed to z8 alters the SBR rendering, the negative contrast [g] the film speed [iso] and the development time for the scene will also be different between the sheets.

I understand the mechanics of the system but 2 alternative approaches to the highlight value [z7 or z8] alters tone rendering in the high values and mid values reasonably dramatically. I'm referring to this as the ZS normal approach to placing values.

[Brian Ellis]

You don't assign the highlight value when making the exposure. The highlight value will fall wherever it falls, based on where you set the shadow value (3 in your example). Highlight values are controlled by development.

There is no fixed rule about using any particular zone for the highlights (or the shadows either for that matter), it just depends on what you want the print to look like. E.g., say you place the darkest important shadow on Zone 3 and that results in the brightest important highlight falling on Zone 8. But that's too bright for this particular image, you prefer a somewhat darker highlight so you develop to N - 1 instead of N to bring the highlight down to Zone 7. It doesn't matter where other photographers place their brightest important highlight,anyone who follows a rule of always placing the brightest important highlight on one particular zone isn't using the zone system to its best advantage IMHO.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I set my shadows on 3 and then let the highlights fall where they may but I make note of them. Develop in Pyrocat and you can control them. Now i print in carbon transfer and I have prints that have full tonal range from zone II to X and sometimes more.

Jim

[Shen45]

Thanks for the information on how you approach the subject. I think I relate to the fact that your personal interpretation of the scene translated to a print will probably be the greatest influence.
Brian when you say you don't assign the highlight value I understand what you mean by the zones falling where they do but is there a set highlight zone [7 or 8 for silver printing] that becomes the point from which a scene is expanded or contracted? I suppose in reality it matters not as long as that is a consistent thing?

[rdenney]

Thanks for the information on how you approach the subject. I think I relate to the fact that your personal interpretation of the scene translated to a print will probably be the greatest influence.
Brian when you say you don't assign the highlight value I understand what you mean by the zones falling where they do but is there a set highlight zone [7 or 8 for silver printing] that becomes the point from which a scene is expanded or contracted? I suppose in reality it matters not as long as that is a consistent thing?

What do you mean by "the point from which a scene is expanded or contracted"? When you set the exposure for Zone III, and then adjust development to control the highlights, Zone III is the point from which the scene is expanded or contracted--that's where you are trying to achieve a predicted density sufficient to show Zone III shadow texture. The point is that if you set your exposure based on capturing shadow detail, you can't assign the highlights. You measure where the highlights fall. If highlight detail that you would like to place on Zone VII (whatever Zone VII looks like to you) ends up on what seems like Zone VIII (when printed as you normally would), then your development is achieving too much contrast. Or, you could use a softer paper grade. I think you'll find that Zone VII and Zone VIII are easy enough to compare to a strip chart, but when interpreting zones in an actual scene, there is a lot of interpretation as to which zone describes given highlights areas.

Much of the Zone System is tailoring the concepts to your work flow so that you get the results you want predictably, not on achieving certain sensitometric values or other intermediate measurements achieved by someone else.

Rick "suspecting any process can be subject to too much analysis" Denney

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks for the information on how you approach the subject. I think I relate to the fact that your personal interpretation of the scene translated to a print will probably be the greatest influence.
Brian when you say you don't assign the highlight value I understand what you mean by the zones falling where they do but is there a set highlight zone [7 or 8 for silver printing] that becomes the point from which a scene is expanded or contracted? I suppose in reality it matters not as long as that is a consistent thing?

Not everyone does it the same way but "standard" zone system testing (as explained, for example, in Adams' book "The Negative" and Fred Picker's book "The Zone VI Workshop") is a test to determine the development time needed for a Zone VIII density. The development time that produces a Zone VIII density would be your normal or "N" time and you'd adjust from there if you learn the zone system as taught by everything I've read about it and learned in the workshops I've attended.

I just skimmed Rick Denney's response quickly so maybe I misunderstood it but it's not correct to say that Zone III is the point from which you expand or contract development. You established Zone III (or whatever zone you used for darkest important shadows, I actually used Zone IV a lot of the time) when you made the exposure. Since the darkest areas of the image (lightest areas of the negative) are fully developed roughly a third of the way through the total development time it wouldn't be practical to base your normal, plus, and minus development times on Zone III.

It's important to remember that it's the "zone" system, not the "pin-point" system. Adams and Archer devised the zone system as a teaching tool for understanding exposure and development. They figured it would be easier to understand and use if each zone corresponded to one full f stop. But that results in a fair amount of variation in density within each zone. They could have achieved greater precision if they had based it on half stops and doubled the number of zones or based it on thirds of stops and tripled the zones but they didn't think that was necessary.

The point is that you don't have to become obsessive about numbers and testing and all of that stuff to use the zone system. The goal isn't a theoretically "perfect" negative, the idea is to allow you to produce a negative from which you can make the print you want to make as easily and quickly as possible.

[Ron Marshall]

Some good advice above.

See Adams or Picker or Bruce Barnbaum's new edition of The Art of Photography for a fuller understanding.

[Gem Singer]

The Zone System devised by AA, F.Archer, and others, was meant to be a simple method of teaching exposure and development of a negative in order to match it to the printing paper being used.

Unfortunately, many folks who wrote about photography attempted to expand the Zone System concept, and by doing so, made it appear to be rocket science.

The Zone System has one basic premise: "Expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. If it's not on the film, there is no way to get it in the print."

Using Pyrocat-HD with Ilford HP-5+, I have been able to control highlight development by the frequency of agitation, rather than by changing the total development time.

Continuous agitation for the first minute. Then agitate for 15 sec. every 2 minutes- reduces contrast.

Continuous agitation for the first 30 sec. Then 15 sec. agitation every minute- increases contrast.

[rdenney]

I just skimmed Rick Denney's response quickly so maybe I misunderstood it but it's not correct to say that Zone III is the point from which you expand or contract development.

I asked what he meant by that statement--I didn't get the connection from what he said that he was using VIII as the point for expanding or contracting development, but rather for expanding or contracting the scene. I was thinking exposure rather than development. It makes sense that he was talking about development and I just missed it.

Rick "who now thinks of the Zone System as more of a visualization tool" Denney

[Bill Burk]

Gem Singer,

I think it's great that you use Pyro and vary the contrast by changing your agitation.

I use time/temperature(compntemp)/D-76/sensitometer/densitometer. I get a certain CI in mind and then develop and check that I hit my aim. I find that I have to "pull" my left hand out of the developer with my right hand and count to ten because otherwise I over-agitate.

So back to an earlier point, you measured a shadow and placed it on zone III because it has important detail you want to see clearly. That is the value you placed. Now you look at the important highlight, not sky, not specular. If it only reads zone VI then you start to think. What do you want to do? I'd be tempted to make that negative N+1 because it has a short range. I have a note that I measured one fairly flat scene with clouds from zone II to zone VI and I picked N+1 to put the VI on VII.

I think I saw others say that whether you place important highlights on VII or VIII doesn't much matter so long as you are consistent. I tend to agree. You are in the area of highlights where a few percent won't make a big difference.

Just don't go too far into the highlights unless you are using a compensating development technique like Gem Singer.

[Chuck P.]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]The point is that if you set your exposure based on capturing shadow detail, you can't assign the highlights.You measure where the highlights fall.

I didn not read all the posts before stating this, so if it repeats another, sorry.

But it doesn't have to end there in the decision making process before the shutter is released. You measure where the highlights fall as stated. If you measure the most important highlight in the scene and it "falls" on Zone VII, then you can plan "N+1" development to develop that Zone VII luminance value to a "normal" Zone VIII negative density value. Zone VIII is considered the highest print value that retains some adequate texture, whereas Zone VII is a print value that is considered to retain full texture. So, the development time to achieve the desired Zone VIII negative density value is the proverbial "normal" development time.

It can go the the other way by developing a Zone IX measured luminance value to a "normal" Zone VIII negative density value with "N-1" development. The goal with "+" and "-" times is to retain the negative density range from Zone I (.09 to .11 density) to Zone VIII (1.25 to 1.35 density). "Normal" development defines that range, that would be 1.3 -0.1 = 1.2 if using the middle of those ranges.

So, essentially, one can "assign" where the important highlight is to be developed versus the brightness value where it was measured. In the case with "-" development, high luminance values are developed to stay within the range of the paper's printable densities.