Flash Advice Needed for "X-Sync" Lenses

[rguinter]

Good golly!

I'm one who has done 20+ years of outdoor hobby photography without even a thought of using flash. Never owned one.

But now my religion is changing and I find myself wanting to use fill-flash with certain subjects... especially back-lit subjects with infrared film.

To keep (somewhat) in tune with my old-fashioned (geezerly) ways I would love to use flashbulbs... but that is a problem because all my MF/LF camera lenses are "X-Sync." And I doubt their contacts could withstand the high current short-circuit needed to fire the old bulbs.

So to my question: does anyone have a recommendation for a modern X-Sync flash unit that could fill my needs? Would have to fit a hot-shoe for my MF cameras and be externally mountable for LF.

Or maybe someone has a suggestion how to fire up the old bulbs with X-Sync flash circuits? I was quite handy with a schematic and soldering iron some years ago.

I'm open to any suggestions... and any and all are welcome.

Cheers.

Bob G.

[Brian C. Miller]

Hate to break it to you, but X-sync means that the flash only fires when the shutter is completely open. It isn't a question of firing off the bulbs, it's a question of when the flash timing happens.

[Gem Singer]

A Vivitar 285HV is a nice shoe-mount flash.

Can be adapted to LF cameras by means of a mounting bracket, or mounted on a light stand and umbrella.

Versatile, inexpensive, and easily available (both new and used).

Operates off of four penlight cells, or an A.C. adapter.

Guide Number of 120 is sufficient for fill flash use.

[Jim Jones]

The X-sync contacts close just as the shutter reaches its fully open position. If this is used to trigger flashbulbs, and the shutter remains open long enough, you will get normal flash exposure. Flashbulbs produce most of their light within 40 milliseconds, or maybe 20 ms for smaller bulbs, after the contacts close. Therefore, shutter speeds of 1/15 or sometimes 1/30 second should work. Using electronic flash with shutters synced for flash bulbs is a problem. The flash will fire before the shutter opens.

On older shutters the same contacts were used for both strobes and flashbulbs. They should handle the current. Some electronic flashes had a high surge current, too. There may be problems with some newer flashes, especially if they use an electronic circuit instead of mechanical contacts.

[Mark Woods]

I think you'll have a problem getting the flash bulbs. In Hollywood some of them sell for upwards of $5 each since they aren't manufactured any more.

[rguinter]

Hate to break it to you, but X-sync means that the flash only fires when the shutter is completely open. It isn't a question of firing off the bulbs, it's a question of when the flash timing happens.

Yes Brian I know about the M-, F-, and X-sync timing and how soon prior to shutter opening they occur. With M- occurring about 20-25 milliseconds early, F- a little later but still early with respect to shutter timing, and so forth.

I understand the X- actually stands for Xenon when it was first established to fire Xenon flash tubes at precisely the moment when the shutter was open. Xenon requires extremely high voltage and very low current.

But as a result, the X-sync contacts are also designed to handle much lower current and therein would be quite a large problem for using flashbulbs with X-Sync circuits... even given that the flash peak would likely occur too late to do the most good for lighting purposes.

As I stated in the opening post... I would love to use flashbulbs because I'm old fashioned and tend to reject new technology... but I probably can't.

But anyway still looking for a reasonable solution to add some frontal infrared energy to back lit subjects in daylight.

Cheers. Bob G.

[rguinter]

I think you'll have a problem getting the flash bulbs. In Hollywood some of them sell for upwards of $5 each since they aren't manufactured any more.

Actually I have quite a bunch of them. Would like to use them for my purposes if I can. But alas... probably can't.

Cheers. Bob G.

[Robert Perrin]

Your "x" sync shutters can be sync'd for bulbs with a solenoid. Most, if not all, are adjustable for accurate synchronization. And in my opinion it's the best means for tripping a LF shutter whether with flash bulbs, electronic flash or ambient light. A google search should turn up sources for bulbs. Here's one example: http://www.meggaflash.com/

[rguinter]

The X-sync contacts close just as the shutter reaches its fully open position. If this is used to trigger flashbulbs, and the shutter remains open long enough, you will get normal flash exposure. Flashbulbs produce most of their light within 40 milliseconds, or maybe 20 ms for smaller bulbs, after the contacts close. Therefore, shutter speeds of 1/15 or sometimes 1/30 second should work. Using electronic flash with shutters synced for flash bulbs is a problem. The flash will fire before the shutter opens.

On older shutters the same contacts were used for both strobes and flashbulbs. They should handle the current. Some electronic flashes had a high surge current, too. There may be problems with some newer flashes, especially if they use an electronic circuit instead of mechanical contacts.

I do have a couple of older shutters with vintage lenses... but unfortunately I rarely use them and they are not the ones I want to use for this project.

Although one of the Ilex shutters actually has a sync setting switch that allows one to preset either 20-, 5-, or 0-millisecond advances for flash timing. But my guess that, given its age, unless the flash contacts were gold-plated, they are probably corroded and unusable.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

P.S. For the sake of clarifying my original post, and for those that think timing may be a serious issue, it probably really isn't. My real purpose for wanting to use fill flash is to fill in some infrared light on back-lit subjects with infrared film.

And my normal exposure time for these subjects is 1 - 4 seconds.

So I really don't care if the flashbulb takes an extra 25-50 milliseconds to really burn. The shutter will be open during and after this time.

Bob G.

[John Koehrer]

They may be tarnished but not likely corroded..
There's only one set of contacts in the shutter, plus a delay feature. There is no difference in how much voltage, current they'll handle as far as photographic flash units go.
Open switch voltage (that's what is going to hit the switch) would typically run between 200-300V @ minimal amperage.

[rguinter]

Your "x" sync shutters can be sync'd for bulbs with a solenoid. Most, if not all, are adjustable for accurate synchronization. And in my opinion it's the best means for tripping a LF shutter whether with flash bulbs, electronic flash or ambient light. A google search should turn up sources for bulbs. Here's one example: http://www.meggaflash.com/

Robert:

This sounds interesting... using a solenoid. I saw their website many moons ago when I first thought about this concept.

But I don't recall seeing anything in there about their methods for actually using the bulbs.

So I'll peruse them closely and see if they have any suggestions for equipment.

Thanks for reminding me of the site with your link.

Cheers. Bob G.

P.S. I'm wondering if any of our Bell Labs researchers went over to Sandia. We had a couple of joint projects with Sandia over the years. I have an associate who went to Argonne but I can't recall anyone going to Sandia. Probably some did but I just didn't know them.........

[rguinter]

They may be tarnished but not likely corroded..
There's only one set of contacts in the shutter, plus a delay feature. There is no difference in how much voltage, current they'll handle as far as photographic flash units go.
Open switch voltage (that's what is going to hit the switch) would typically run between 200-300V @ minimal amperage.

Well John that may be an option.

I just checked the little roller switch that controls the timing setting and it still rolls. That in itself is a good sign.

And the shutter is fitted with a 305-mm Caltar that I do use sometimes.

Cheers. Bob G.

[Leigh]

But as a result, the X-sync contacts are also designed to handle much lower current and therein would be quite a large problem for using flashbulbs with X-Sync circuits...
As Jim Jones said earlier...

There's only one set of contacts inside the shutter.

The choice of sync mode only affects the timing, not the routing of the electrical signal.

- Leigh

[Brian C. Miller]

Speedotron produced a flash accessory for their packs which drops the 70V trigger to 3V or so for use with 35mm cameras and various digis which can't handle the current. I think that all LF lenses can accomodate the voltage, but isolating the current of 3A (data link (http://www.flashbulbs.com/Megaflash_Pg1.htm)) is probably a good idea.

Since you are using slow shutter speeds, then of course the exact timing wouldn't matter, and you could just fire the flash by hand instead of worrying about syncing it with the shutter.

[Doug Herta]

If you are worried about frying the x-sync with a flashgun/flashbulbs the solenoid idea is an excellent one.

I think you are fine with using the x-sync directly connected to the flash gun and keeping the shutter speed at or below 1/30 - even the boxes of flashbulbs suggest doing this (at least the "modern" boxes of bulbs from the 70's). I am not sure what delicate electronics hide in YOUR lenses, mine are big chunks of glass with mechanical shutters.

As an avid flashbulb user, I think they are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. For goodness sake, there is the whole under-40 crowd who have never even SEEN them before. I hesitate to let the cat out of the bag so to speak, but flashbulbs are readily available at everyone's favorite auction site and sometimes at good prices at the Goodwill auction site.

Get a Honeywell Tilt-a-Mite flash gun. It takes 3 bulb types (AG, M, and press-type) and the battery and capacitor are easy to find and replace. And - drum roll - it tilts!

Now lets talk infrared. You mentioned you want to do backlighting with infrared? Get some infrared flashbulbs! There are a dozen on ebay as we type! What fun!

Now don't get all addicted to large format flashbulb photography. There is a finite supply of NOS (New Old Stock) bulbs that are going for reasonable prices on the auction sites at this time. We can't start bidding wars now.

If anyone wants to sell me their flashbulbs, please PM me.

[mandoman7]

Not to go on a tangent, but, it seems like you'd want to be sure about the look before going to a lot of trouble configuring equipment. If its an old timey look that's desired, modern on-camera flash will rarely be helpful in that regard. Its hard to dial it back enough to ever look nice IMO. There's something different about the look of the old bulb-lit shots with speed graphics that just doesn't happen with vivitar 285's. But those weren't "fill" lights anyway, people used bulbs as the main source usually.

For fill, I would highly recommend getting one of these (http://www.adorama.com/PFLD52WS.html?utm_source=gbase&utm_medium=Shopping%20Site&utm_campaign=Other&utm_term=Other), which can be supported with a light stand. The advantages: never needs batteries or cables, and never looks phoney, never distracts your from the sitter. I've used them in portraits for years, as reflectors or for diffusion from the sun. Of course, the OP didn't really say portraits I guess, did he?

[Leigh]

There's something different about the look of the old bulb-lit shots with speed graphics that just doesn't happen with Vivitar 285's.
It's mostly the size of the light source.

The old Graflex flash with the #5 bulbs had a huge reflector, much larger than any of the modern on-camera strobes. It gave a look similar to a soft box.

I was shooting that combination 50 years ago, and loved everything about it except the burned fingers. :rolleyes:

- Leigh

[rdenney]

It's easy enough to use a modifier on a modern flash to get whatever look you wanted.

A Vivitar 285/283 isn't exactly modern. Originals would be 35 years old at this point. Or, you could find a Honeywell Strobonar and it would be 40+ years old.

The notion of using a switching solenoid circuit to do this id rather amusing. The components in that circuit might be much more modern than an old 283.

The trigger voltage of an old 283 is about 300 volts. It is voltage Rather than the tiny current that is the problem for electronic cameras--the switching is done by TTL ot CMOS devices that can't tolerate over about 6 volts. The contacts on mechanical shutters are big enough not to arc at the higher voltages. I use a switching device with my Speedotron flash head to protect modern cameras, as previosly mentioned. Oh, those Speedotron heads are at least 40-year-old technology.

Personally, I think you ought to use magnesium flash powder.

Rick "thing an old Norman portable might look old enough" Denney

[mandoman7]

Well, yes, its possible that if you had the right size reflector and it had the right specularity, you could replicate a lot of the old news photog's flash look. But isn't there still part of the look that has to do with the duration of the flash? ;)

[Ash]

I second Gem's early comment of buying a Vivitar 285. Mine was great until I broke it. Otherwise a Metz 45. Failing that save and buy a bare-bulb flash for the look similar to the bulbs

[rguinter]

I...As an avid flashbulb user, I think they are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. For goodness sake, there is the whole under-40 crowd who have never even SEEN them before

Doug:

Thanks for a great post with lots of info. About the under 40-crowd... yes I know. I hauled some flashbulbs out of the closet last week when my son was over. He is 15 and lives with his mother most of the time.

He took one look at the bulb and asked me if it could be used more than once. I think he was surprised to learn that it was a single-use disposable.

Haven't used a flashbulb in years. The thing I miss the most is the characteristic "fried-bulb" smell of the cooked lacquer. The house was always full of that smell at every gathering.

And then of course there was always the stumble-bum looks on people's faces after they'd been blinded with a sudden flash. "Gotcha aunt Gertie!" Probably why so many of us geezers have cataracts... but such fun it was to watch the after-effects.

I have the Nikon version of the tilt-a-mite. But for some reason it won't fire any more. I tore it all apart, checked the capacitor... 300 uf and it holds a charge for days. Checked the circuit through and can't find the fault. Probably that tiny little wire-wound resistor that slows down the capacitor charge-rate and prevents a dead short when plugging in a bulb. I mean... who wants a bulb to pop in their hand when plugging it in? Not a good thing.

The old resister measures a couple k-ohms but I haven't found an old circuit diagram to let me know what resistance it was when new.

Even if I do get it working though, I'm pretty sure the dead short firing current across the hotshoe and into the contacts of modern Copal shutters will cause their early death.

I'll keep working on it.

Finally, I'd not heard of infrared bulbs. I'll have to go over to the auction site and check it out. Something I never knew about.

Cheers. Bob g.

[rguinter]

As Jim Jones said earlier...

There's only one set of contacts inside the shutter.

The choice of sync mode only affects the timing, not the routing of the electrical signal.

- Leigh

Absolutely true with the older shutters and I agree.

But my real concern is with my modern X-sync only copal shutters on my MF cameras and LF lenses.

No longer made for high current (i.e., hundreds of milliamps) that flows in flashbulb firing circuits.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

Speedotron produced a flash accessory for their packs which drops the 70V trigger to 3V or so for use with 35mm cameras and various digis which can't handle the current. I think that all LF lenses can accomodate the voltage, but isolating the current of 3A (data link (http://www.flashbulbs.com/Megaflash_Pg1.htm)) is probably a good idea.

Since you are using slow shutter speeds, then of course the exact timing wouldn't matter, and you could just fire the flash by hand instead of worrying about syncing it with the shutter.

Brian: Thanks for reminding me.

Yes I actually did think of this... trying to fire the flashbulb by hand while the shutter is open. Short the contacts on the hotshoe connector with a penny... or maybe get fancy and build a pushbutton circuit to connect.

I may try this but during my original thinking I concluded that my two fumbly hands are usually already busy with a stopwatch and shutter release cable.

Thanks for the Speedotron suggestion. I'd never heard of them. I'll google them and see what I can find.

Cheers. Bob G.

[rguinter]

I second Gem's early comment of buying a Vivitar 285. Mine was great until I broke it. Otherwise a Metz 45. Failing that save and buy a bare-bulb flash for the look similar to the bulbs

Had one of the earlier Vivitar's many years ago that worked well with my 35-mm equipment... ca. 1980s. Can't recall the model but probably a predecessor of the 285.

But unfortunately it got left behind with the ex after divorce. I would try it if I still had it. It was a nice rugged unit.

I see they are not very expensive and I may buy a new one to give it a try.

But my gut feeling is the output of xenon may be too fast and too feeble in the near infrared region to do what I want.

Bob G.

[al olson]

. . .
A Vivitar 285/283 isn't exactly modern. Originals would be 35 years old at this point. Or, you could find a Honeywell Strobonar and it would be 40+ years old.

The notion of using a switching solenoid circuit to do this id rather amusing. The components in that circuit might be much more modern than an old 283.
. . .


Actually, for the period look, the strobes go back as far as into the 50s. In 1957 I purchased a Heiland Strobonar (I believe it was branded as a Graflex Strobonar, IIRC) with my Super Graphic. They had been around for several years at that time. The Strobonars were powerful and would light up a hockey rink from the photographers loft (I believe the flash duration was somewhere in the 1/8000 to 1/10,000 sec range.)

In 1963 I traded my system in for a Nikon with a Honeywell Strobonar (seems like there might have been a trademark issue here). Due to infrequent use, the electrolytics in the Honeywell would go flat. When they would no longer restore, I had them replaced. The next time I could no longer get replacements. Hence, I would be surprised if there are any working Honeywells around these days.

I have a used Crown Graphic lens board (never installed) that has a solenoid mounted on it. These could be used with the Graflite flash. These flash units have been available at auction (but have become popular for use as light sabers). I bought one to use (sans batteries) as a handle for my current Toyo Super Graphic (makes it look more authentic even though I don't mount the reflector).

The popular bulbs for amateur and for press were the #5 and #25. They were the same size, shape, and light output. The #5s were made by GE and Westinghouse. The #25s were Sylvania products. I am not certain if the #25 had plastic IR coating, but the #5R was available as an IR flash bulb.

There were also IR filters that were designed to fit over the flash reflector.

I started doing IR photography in the early 50s after seeing an article about Weegee in one of the photo magazines. For several years I only used it with flash. It was great for doing candids at events.

So you might consider getting a used Graflite flash and a lens board with a mounted solenoid. These are still available. Paramount fabricates the electric connectors, including the Y-cords, for use with such a system.

[Kevin Crisp]

I think Doug's suggestion is a good one and it is what I have done. The Honeywell tilt-a-mites are a dime a dozen, well made, and fire at least three different sizes of bulbs. It has a push button on it so during your 1 to 4 second exposures push the button or, if you want to get fancy, use a switch off the unit to check that you have a good circuit through the bulb. Then just short the cord, which is a conventional pc type. I think there is a flash firing button on the unit as well, but I'm not looking at it. Pretty sure it is the red button, with a separate green button to check and make sure contacts are good to fire the flash.

I'm at work with no boxes of flashbulbs in front of me, but most of the boxes do cover use with X sync. You have to use a slow speed but I think they will work.

[rguinter]

Lots of good info. Thanks everybody. Some things reminders of what I already knew (at one time). And quite a few new thoughts that never crossed my mind.

Best infrared photos are in the spring and summer when foliage is on the trees here in NJ. So getting this act together is something to do over the winter.

But I do think I want to use bulbs rather than a xenon flash unit if I can. Clear flashbulbs will certainly produce lots of infrared energy in the 600 to 900 nanometer range where my stockpile of IR films are sensitive. I doubt xenon will do this.

Cheers. Bob G.

[Neal Chaves]

I have a quantity of flash bulbs in various sizes, some very large (2B). Not much current is required to ignite the bulbs and view lens shutters can handle it easily. One Press 25 bulb equaled the output of a 1200WS Ascor electronic flash. Of course now all these bulbs have to be used at 1/15 or more with "X" sync only shutters, as faster speeds will cut off part of the flash. You can measure the output of bulbs very accurately with an electronic flash meter like Calcuflash II. I suppose you could measure at the ground glass and compute what the effective exposure is at higher shutter speeds. You can use an isolator like the Wein SafeSynch if you ignite the bulbs with higher voltages. Anyone who wants those bulbs, PM me and I will inventory and price. See the work of Winston Link and Wegee.

[Neal Chaves]

I have also heard, although I have not verified this myself that flash bulbs in contact with one another will set themselves off and that whole baskets of No.2s were used that way on some jobs. I think there is some kind of warning on the boxes. When I pull them out of storage I may find it.

[jp]

Vivitar 285hv. Simple to use, reliable, inexpensive, lower sync voltage.

I think the old speed-graphic+bulb looks is largely the result of the 6" aluminum dish behind the bulb.