'Grease' on lens elements

[Barry Kirsten]

I like my glass to be spotless - don't we all! I decided to dismantle my 5.6/135 Symmar as there appeared to be something in the front group that shouldn't be there. In fact it was something greasy on the inner surface of the rear element which I have managed to significantly reduce, but not eliminate completely.

The thing is, that when I clean each element of group, I usually get good results when each is held against a strong light, but when the whole lot is reassembled there is a magnifying effect which makes any contamination on the rear element look worse. Maybe this effect is a function of the focal point of the group, which would be at the iris, right?, and therefore more prominent.

My question is, how important is this in practical terms? It's impossible to keep lenses perfectly clean as there is usually something present like dust specks and even faint 'cleaning marks' (which are never a problem according to those who are selling lenses ;) ). I can't remember anyone complaining about degraded images from their dirty lenses.

My feeling is that this film is probably OK, as it is hard to see without a strong light. However it's still there, and therefore will have some effect on image quality, however small. It's also really hard to get at, being at the bottom of the metal body that holds the front elements together, and there is no way that I can see to safely remove it (I think it's a press fit). So, advice please... stop being paranoid and learn to live with it, or send it somewhere for a proper job?

Many thanks,

Barry.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Barry,

You're probably causing more harm to the lenses with your cleaning. If there is grease, then that's a problem. Panchro Lens Cleaner is the standard of the Film Industry. I personally rarely clean my lenses, but do blow them off with nitrogen. All those little "cleaning" marks add to internal refraction and lower the contrast of the lens. Could make a lens really beautiful, but you could do the same with a diffusion filter and still have a good contrasty lens.

[GPS]

As said, the effect that it could have is mostly on the contrast. And that is impossible to see or to measure without direct comparisons with a healthy lens. Even so, the atmosphere alone can change the contrast of your pictures...
And indeed, to disassemble lens to individual lens cells is more dangerous than you probably would like to know.

[Kevin Crisp]

I think that your assumption that we all want our lenses "spotless" is probably off the mark. I shoot the dust off them when I get back from a trip. Unless I put a finger on the glass by accident (and you always know the moment you do that) I don't use tissue on lenses. I'm sure some of mine haven't been touched with tissue in 5+ years. Repetitive and unnecessary cleanings in the pursuit of perfect glass can lead to damage in the long run. How many eBay lenses have "cleaning marks"? Much better if they'd been left alone, although proper cleaning would certainly have helped avoid the marks.

A ring of moderate fog as often seen in convertible Symmars and similar vintage lenses makes no difference in the negative if you are stopping down to typical landscape apertures. I don't buy lenses with damaged rims because they can't be disassembled some day if it is worst than that. I do take them apart myself carefully with the excellent SK Grimes wrench, but I have never had internal fog or haze (fungus is another story) that can't be cleaned with a breath and one tissue. I'm not sure where your grease would come from in a non-focusing lens assembly. Getting back to your original question, try acetone sparingly, heeding the dangers on the can, followed by a breath and a tissue. Don't let the acetone get in the joint of a cemented element.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Kevin,

I'd be careful about breathing on the lens. I've had lens techs tell me that that can be a source of fungus. I know when I've shot features in the south, the good ACs do not use their breath on the lens for that reason. Again, Panchro Lens Cleaner is the standard in my industry. Here's a link to Film Tools: http://www.filmtools.com/panlencleanf.html

[GPS]

And also, forget completely about acetone. Unless you want to replace the greasy marks with paint diluted in acetone marks...

[Kevin Crisp]

Well GPS, I knew there was little possibility that you and I could actually agree on anything. I got the idea from Mr. Grimes and it has worked well for me. Yes if you soak the edge of the element, as I suggested avoiding, it can dissolve black paint. Used judiciously, as on the end of a q-tip, this is not a problem.

I also use acetone as the final wipe on lens elements I am gluing, a process I think you said people should forget trying to do at home. Works very well for that as well.

Mark...I'll try some, thanks. $15 for 4 oz but I just ordered it.

[Steven Tribe]

Fungus caused by breathing on a lens is an old wives' tale. Fungus spores are everywhere in quite ordinary environments - they are very tiny. Moisture on a lens will make the spores adhere and develop into a fungal growth.

[GPS]

Well GPS, I knew there was little possibility that you and I could actually agree on anything. I got the idea from Mr. Grimes and it has worked well for me. Yes if you soak the edge of the element, as I suggested avoiding, it can dissolve black paint. Used judiciously, as on the end of a q-tip, this is not a problem.

I also use acetone as the final wipe on lens elements I am gluing, a process I think you said people should forget trying to do at home. Works very well for that as well.

Mark...I'll try some, thanks. $15 for 4 oz but I just ordered it.

Kevin, Qtips are not a judicious way of cleaning a lens. And when you try to clean the whole surface of a lens with "the end of a q-tip" you'll see why it doesn't work either. Let alone trying to do so with a q-tip wet with acetone...
Doesn't work well, whatever Mr.Grimes says about it. First it doesn't go the the lens surface extreme (and you want to clean it there too because it's there where most of the grit is, isn't it?), second the Q tip is not a proper material (damages coating with its lint) third the acetone dilutes the paint on the lens rim, why the heck would you do something like that to your lens. Never mind.

[Kevin Crisp]

Maybe I just have really soft q-tips. They are also apparently relatively lint-free since that has never been an issue. I think you could carefully glide a moist q-tip on a lens for a lifetime and not harm it. There will not be remaining lint after the final cleaning before reassembly.

As mentioned in my response, the q-tip was for getting the grease off, followed up by a conventional cleaning and reassembly. The q-tip will leave some streaks of whatever it was you dissolved, but my experience has been that those will then yield to a conventional cleaning. Acetone is only for serious cleaning problems that a conventional cleaning can't deal with. I've seen it work, just as I've seen mere amateurs learn to successfully separate and recement classic lenses at home.

You lost me on 'the lens surface extreme,' whatever that is, and I didn't think we were talking about grit which should be blown off before any cleaning.

I've been saying all along that acetone in contact with the paint on the rim of an element can dissolve it, or, as you put it, dilute it. I would not use anything with acetone on it where there is so much liquid slopping around that this might happen. That was why I said use it "judiciously."

[GPS]

Kevin, whatever you Gospel is, to clean a lens with something that is not made for lens cleaning and that makes it impossible to clean the whole lens surface and impossible to clean it without damaging its rim and putting more problem on the lens is not a good idea. But it is your idea and you will defend it ad nauseum.

[Barry Kirsten]

And indeed, to disassemble lens to individual lens cells is more dangerous than you probably would like to know.

Actually I would like to know. Apart from obvious risks like damaging lens surfaces and coatings, and careless use of solvents, the only danger I can imagine is mis-alignment of cells on reassembly.

Given that some on this forum have successfully cleaned and re-cemented infected/separated/crystallised lenses, attempting a thorough cleaning of a dirty lens seems well within the capability of careful and thoughtful photographer.

Thanks to all for your interesting and helpful comments.

Baz.

[Mark Woods]

The Panchro cleaning fluid lasts a very long time. I've had 3 bottles of it for over 8 years. All you need is a little push on the top to spray the solution onto the glass surface. I think you'll be happy. It doesn't seem to matter if you spray it and get it on the metal (almost impossible not to). I've never seen it harm any lens.

BTW, Steve, I believe there is moisture in your breath that could help the fungus adhere to the glass. I stand by what I said. Nitrogen blast, and if needed, Panchro lens cleaner followed by another Nitrogen blast. I have a tank in my dark room to blast the film before I close the dark slide. I also use it to blow off the negs before they go into the enlarger or contact printer. Once you have a tank, the refills are about $25 (for a small tank). I rarely have to spot any print.

[GPS]

...

Given that some on this forum have successfully cleaned and re-cemented infected/separated/crystallised lenses, attempting a thorough cleaning of a dirty lens seems well within the capability of careful and thoughtful photographer.

...
Baz.

That's bad logic. The lenses Kevin speaks about were his classical lenses. That is not the same class as more modern lenses. Now if thorough cleaning of a dirty lens means for you lens disassembly to the individual lens cells then you're well off with your logic. Ever seen modern assembly lines of photo lenses? Well within capability of "careful and thoughtful photographer"? What BS... :rolleyes:

[Steven Tribe]

As an avid dismantler and re-balsammer, I have to agree with GPS here. Just looking at the outside of modern Zeiss/Leitz gives me a headache. It's not just the specially designed tools which are necessary but also the allignment problems which puts it out of the reach of the amateur. You can compare it with fiddling with a Ford A and solving the ingition problem of a modern car.

[patrickjames]

If you really want to get a lens surface clean there is a substance called Opti-Clean that is painted on and allowed to dry, then peeled off. It is the best thing I have ever used. It isn't cheap though! I only use it on the interior surfaces.

The old ROR was amazing, and the new stuff is good, but it smells different. Zeiss cleaner is also good. I have used acetone and vodka as well. Kim Wipes are better to use than microfibers with the liquid cleaners.

Thanks for the tip on the Pancro Lens Cleaner. I'll have to try it out.

[Barry Kirsten]

That's bad logic. The lenses Kevin speaks about were his classical lenses. That is not the same class as more modern lenses. Now if thorough cleaning of a dirty lens means for you lens disassembly to the individual lens cells then you're well off with your logic. Ever seen modern assembly lines of photo lenses? Well within capability of "careful and thoughtful photographer"? What BS... :rolleyes:

I find the tone of your reply offensive. If you can't reply with more civility, don't bother.

Barry.

[Kevin Crisp]

The available instructions on lens repair often suggest acetone used on cheese cloth for the final critical wipe before applying the cement. I know the manufacturer of the UV cure cement I use recommends it. Specifically lab grade purity. I'm sorry that you, as someone who hasn't actually done this, find this a dumb idea. I can only say it has worked the 30+ times I've done it.

Getting back to an earlier question I think with care a non pro with a Grimes wrench with flat tips can take apart and clean a modern plasmat. If the slots in the retaining ring are buggered up don't attempt it send it to Focal Point or Balham Ltd. The glass is ground so precisely that the fit is often air tight in the barrel. If you don't misinstall or misplace shims it will be fine

Getting back to GPS I do pimp you sometimes in threads where you chime in as though you just whirled around in God Almighty's desk chair and dug the answer out of His reference books. Especially where you clearly haven't personally tried what you are going on about.

The forum is a delightful ever changing mix of mostly experience and opinions and, with the exception of physical laws and established formulas, few absolutes. My opinions are no more valid than yours except maybe when I've actually tried and had success something you say can't be done.

What I've taken away from this thread is that there may be a great lens cleaner or maybe two of them I didn't know about and for that I am grateful.

[Mark Woods]

BTW, I use acetone all the time when I'm gluing things together and also if I'm painting metal. It's a great cleaner. I just wouldn't use it on a lens that's already mounted in a barrel. There's other options for me.

[Kevin Crisp]

I sure didn't mean to say use acetone as a general lens cleaner or on assembled lenses. It was a suggestion on grease that was internal and wouldn't otherwise come off. As I said I've never found the fog or internal haze at all difficult to clean off. I do take the affected elements out of the mount first.

[Barry Kirsten]

For the record, this is an early Symmar from around 1960, and I do have a Grimes wrench. It came apart simply and re-assembled simply. I wouldn't even dream about dismantling a modern lens.

Common sense tells me that to use acetone on the rear element in its metal housing would invite trouble from dissolved paint getting onto the glass, making the problem worse than the original, so that's not an option in this case.

I have made an improvement by using Formula MC from The Filter Connection, and was thinking I'd leave it at that, however Mark's recommendation of Panchro cleaning fluid is worth trying. Next problem: where to buy it in Oz.

Thanks for the helpful comments.

Baz.

[Kevin Crisp]

Barry: The newer ones disassemble just like the 1960's versions. But if you aren't comfortable with it, don't try it. For whatever reason I seem to get the fog more often on G Clarons than anything else, including relatively newer ones.

[GPS]

I find the tone of your reply offensive. If you can't reply with more civility, don't bother.

Barry.

Since when are others under your orders? If you don't like my posts don't read it.:rolleyes:


For the record, this is an early Symmar from around 1960, and I do have a Grimes wrench. It came apart simply and re-assembled simply. I wouldn't even dream about dismantling a modern lens.
...
Baz.

The fact that one can disassemble and reassemble a lens into the the individual lens cells easily is in no way any indication that it is a clever way to clean lenses.
Wouldn't even dream about dismantling a modern lens? Why not - if you can do so "easily"?:rolleyes: ;)

[GPS]

...
My opinions are no more valid than yours except maybe when I've actually tried and had success something you say can't be done.

...

You have an example where "I said something cannot be done" or is in your wild imagination only?;)

[Kevin Crisp]

My interest in this thread goes only so far but since responding is so easy...

1. Acetone is as terrible way to clean a lens that has stubborn grease on it, this won't work. The phrase you used repeatedly in this very thread was "impossible," which I think equates with your present question's "cannot be done." This opinion, so strongly expressed. despite the fact that Mr. Grimes and, for crying out loud, Summers Optical, recommend using Acetone for the final cleaning to make absolutely sure glass is clean and ready for cementing. You discouraged lens disassembly by the amateur. It does not appear that you have actually personally disassembled a lens and used acetone to clean it. It works very well. Grimes was right and so was Summers. And for once, so was I. The best response for the grease situation may be the Hollywood lens cleaner somebody recommended and I look forward to trying it out.

Your opinion did no harm here, but not so on the following from our earlier debate (a year ago? Something like that...) which was the last time everything I said was wrong and I wouldn't admit it you might be....

2. An amateur can't successfully separate and recement lenses at home. A number of us have climbed the learning curve and are doing this. It was clear to me that you have not personally, successfully, separated and recemented a vintage lens. You were just telling people it couldn't be done based on "wild imagination," perhaps, or some need to express an opinion on the topic. Or maybe you tried it (which I doubt from your comments) and gave up after leaving cemented fingerprints everywhere. The fact is, it can be done. Several people asked me how to do this after our last debate and I gave them detailed instructions. I don't know if they tried it and pulled it off, but the number of specific follow up questions suggests they did in some cases. I recemented a lens as a favor for one fellow who seemed like a nice guy, and he was pleased with how it worked when he got it back. It can be done. And for that reason I don't understand why a person who didn't personally have experience with the process would discourage people from trying it.

Here I think your uninformed opinion could do some harm. With the passing of Mr. Grimes, I don't know of a pro (Lens-4-Shutter, Balham, Focal Point) that can recement the 6 cemented surfaces of a separated double protar for anything near what the lens is worth. I am not accusing those pros of being unfair in their pricing -- if you try this some day you will appreciate how much work is involved. They do incredible work -- from personal experience with Focal Point and Balham. So if money is an object, you either do it yourself or the lens is a junker.

It seems to me that the original poster with the greased lens element has that problem licked. And I learned about some new lens cleaners. Maybe the thread is long enough?

[GPS]

My interest in this thread goes only so far but since responding is so easy...

1. Acetone is as terrible way to clean a lens that has stubborn grease on it, this won't work. The phrase you used repeatedly in this very thread was "impossible," which I think equates with your present question's "cannot be done." ...

Your opinion did no harm here, but not so on the following from our earlier debate (a year ago? Something like that...) which was the last time everything I said was wrong and I wouldn't admit it you might be....

2. An amateur can't successfully separate and recement lenses at home. ...

The "quotes" you have fabricated are nowhere in my posts. If you disagree, show them...
You invent "quotes" and then fight that what has never been said as you "quote" it? Kevin, have you got tumour on your brain? :rolleyes:

[E. von Hoegh]

For the record, this is an early Symmar from around 1960, and I do have a Grimes wrench. It came apart simply and re-assembled simply. I wouldn't even dream about dismantling a modern lens.

Common sense tells me that to use acetone on the rear element in its metal housing would invite trouble from dissolved paint getting onto the glass, making the problem worse than the original, so that's not an option in this case.

I have made an improvement by using Formula MC from The Filter Connection, and was thinking I'd leave it at that, however Mark's recommendation of Panchro cleaning fluid is worth trying. Next problem: where to buy it in Oz.

Thanks for the helpful comments.

Baz.

For what it's worth, I de-hazed the very same lans, same vintage, with isopropyl alcohol,lab grade. Haze between the elements, use a very slightly damp tissue - you do Not want iso getting where it doesn't belong.

[GPS]

...
Common sense tells me that to use acetone on the rear element in its metal housing would invite trouble from dissolved paint getting onto the glass, making the problem worse than the original, so that's not an option in this case.

...

Thanks for the helpful comments.

Baz.

That's correct in my opinion too. At least on something we agree.:)

[Kevin Crisp]

GPS

Thank you for your concern about my having a brain tumor. I don't believe that is the case. I do have a close friend in a losing battle with a brain tumor, but as far as I know, the irresistible urge to deflate self-righteous, uninformed know-it-alls is not one of his symptoms. He mostly sleeps a lot now and tires easily. Part of this, I am sure, is the pain medication.

The portions of my last post in [B]bold[B] were simple statements, paraphrasing the two discussions on which you have an apparent failure of recollection. By paraphrasing instead of going back and retrieving multiple quotes, some more than a year old, I was merely teeing up the subject in a concise way, in response to your invitation. It is easy to tell when I am quoting since -- and this may just be a quirk of mine -- I put little marks like this around the words that are verbatim: " ".

On reflection, I think both paraphrases were fair summaries of your prior positions.

On the subject of acetone I did quote your prior posts in which you said that what I suggested was impossible; the equivalent in my book of something 'that can't be done,' which is how I accurately paraphrased you earlier.

You did, of course, previously declare DIY lens repair as something that could not be successfully accomplished. You can go back and find that prior discussion if you wish. As I said, my interest in this goes only so far.

What is particularly interesting is that you have not claimed, even when repeatedly baited, any experience whatsoever in cleaning glass with acetone and/or lens separation and recementing, the two topics on which you provided your opinions about what would or would not work. My point wasn't so much that you and I disagreed, which was fine with me, it was that vociferous opinions were being presented (vociferous as in you offended someone else in this very thread) without having any personal knowledge or experience behind them.

And now maybe it is my undiagnosed brain tumor talking but you know, I am so, so, so sorry I questioned your views. You must have been entirely right, at all times, in every way, in the manner only a gifted, "theoretical" problem spotter and solver can be. I am sorry I questioned you and I may not do it again. And with that profuse and heartfelt apology I am going to leave this thread behind.

[GPS]

I didn't ask you to paraphrase but to quote. If you cannot quote I'm not interested in discussions where you invent someone's quotes and then you argue with them.

[GPS]

Actually I would like to know. Apart from obvious risks like damaging lens surfaces and coatings, and careless use of solvents, the only danger I can imagine is mis-alignment of cells on reassembly.

...
Thanks to all for your interesting and helpful comments.

Baz.

Not only the alignment or the correct spacing but also the damage to stubborn spacing rings and threads, the quality of the air (dust) in your room (something you're concerned about a lot...), its humidity etc. It's not for no reason that assembling lenses is done in a strictly controlled environment and with a plenty of special equipment at hand. Unless you have all that and the know how then to disassemble a modern lens means to lower its value and performance.
Once I gave a lens for cleaning of some internal dust to a firm that was doing that. When I got it cleaned and commented on the presence of some residual dust in it the technician told me - that I cannot do as we don't have the sterile rooms they use for assembling of these lenses... In hearing that I appreciated his honesty....:)

[vpwphoto]

I just disassembled the cels of my old scrungy Wooley 7 1/4 Velosostigmat. IV.
Got the front ring off with the careful coaxing of a safety pin applying force in the "period" engraved in the ring. The rear cell came apart with the help of a rubber eraser pushed onto the ring and kept judiciously away from the element. The elements popped out of the brass with a little tapping of the ring on a countertop. Cleaned the inner haze and crud... almost as good as new. Hats off to the Woolensack folks for the wonderful machining. Neat to see pencil marks on the side of the elements form the 1930's.