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Scotty230358
17-Dec-2010, 16:27
Having searched this forum and done quite a bit of reading I am somewhat confused.

I have a lens that is marked "CP Goerz Berlin Dagor Series III f6.8 120mm No 610814". There are no markings on the rear of the lens.

Now - There are conflicting posts about these lenses. So far I have read that

a) Burke and James lenses (that usually enjoy a poor reputation) are simply marked

BERLIN DAGOR

b) lenses marked like mine are not Burke and James lenses but "pukka" Goerz lenses.

However other posts suggest that lenses marked the same as mine are said Burke and James lenses and that Goerz lenses are marked "CP Goerz Berlin Dagor Serie III"

Could someone who knows about these lenses tell me have I got a Goerz lens or a Burke and James "booty glass special".

I have attached a photo.

Thank you.

Ash
17-Dec-2010, 16:39
It won't make a huge difference unless you're looking to sell it.

The Double-Anastigmat formula became a popular one for many manufacturers because of the good quality results.

To me it looks a bit too clean and modern to be an old German one, but I may be wrong.

John Schneider
17-Dec-2010, 16:43
As I remember, real Berlin Dagors said "Serie"; B&J versions said "Series."

Dan Fromm
17-Dec-2010, 17:21
Whatever it is, its been reshuttered. The lens' s/n puts it in 1923, probably, or a little later but certainly before 1926. The Compur Rapid was introduced in 1934. Both dates from P-H Pont's little book.

Shoot it and be happy.

DanK
17-Dec-2010, 17:29
Whatever it is, its been reshuttered. The lens' s/n puts it in 1923, probably, or a little later but certainly before 1926. The Compur Rapid was introduced in 1934. Both dates from P-H Pont's little book.

Shoot it and be happy.

Dan,

Speaking of shutters, was an Optimo shutter ever an original mount for a Dagor...

Thanks,
Dan

Scotty230358
18-Dec-2010, 00:18
Whatever it is, its been reshuttered. The lens' s/n puts it in 1923, probably, or a little later but certainly before 1926. The Compur Rapid was introduced in 1934. Both dates from P-H Pont's little book.

Shoot it and be happy.

I would conclude that if the lens is between 1923 and 1926 it is probably not one of those "booty glass specials" of ill repute. I was looking to sell it but did state in the auction that I doubted it was in the same league as those Dagors that command the really high prices. In fact my asking price was a tad over $150. Apart from its compact size and incredibly light weight it is not of sufficient "character" to make it a substitute for my 125mm Fuji lens (unlike the meniscus lens that nice Mr Galli sold me). If it does not sell I'll just keep it as a spare. I think I paid just under $200 for it.

Dan Fromm
18-Dec-2010, 06:12
Dan, I don't know for sure, don't see why not. Goerz was in the lens business, not very much in the shutter business.

There's a Dagor, focal length not specified in the listing and not visible in the product shot but probably not very long, in an Optimo on eBay right now. I thought about buying it for a few seconds, then decided that if the Optimo needs service I can't provide it and it isn't clear who can.

goamules
18-Dec-2010, 06:23
Dan, you probably know this, but all the Optimo shutters I've ever handled worked well and were fairly accurate. They are reliable.

On the mix and match Dagors B&J made, I always heard they just read "Berlin Dagor" with no "Goerz" on them. Someone who has one of the good and bad should make a webguide..... this question comes up a lot, with a lot of guesswork...like I'm doing!

Steven Tribe
18-Dec-2010, 06:36
These 1900-1920's 120mm dagors started their life as the best option on the Goerz tenax 9x12 folder and, until recently at least, could be picked up for very little when still attached to a ruined 9x12. But you take a chance with the reliability of the original dial shutter.

E. von Hoegh
18-Dec-2010, 08:20
This one is marked "Series".
Also, by the time CPG Berlin got to the 600,000 range they were no longer using the "Serie" designation.
Therefore it is a B&J remount, which does not mean it is junk - it might be just fine.

Dan Fromm
18-Dec-2010, 08:34
Dan, you probably know this, but all the Optimo shutters I've ever handled worked well and were fairly accurate. They are reliable. <snip>

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Dan Fromm
18-Dec-2010, 08:45
I would conclude that if the lens is between 1923 and 1926 it is probably not one of those "booty glass specials" of ill repute. I was looking to sell it but did state in the auction that I doubted it was in the same league as those Dagors that command the really high prices. In fact my asking price was a tad over $150. Apart from its compact size and incredibly light weight it is not of sufficient "character" to make it a substitute for my 125mm Fuji lens (unlike the meniscus lens that nice Mr Galli sold me). If it does not sell I'll just keep it as a spare. I think I paid just under $200 for it.Scotty, I think you're being too apologetic about y'r little Dagor.

I've checked with Eric Beltrando's calculated curves for Dagors, based on prescriptions in Goerz patents, and for the 1965 recalculation of the Boyer Beryl, based on a prescription in the Boyer archives. The Beryl is very much a Dagor.

They're all much the same. The expensive relatively modern Dagors are mainly long focus lenses. Focal length may explain their prices. Mystique, sometimes spelled mass hysteria, may also be involved.

As for "character," that's very subjective. Everything I've read about lenses' character makes me think that it is a consequence of lens abuse, i.e., of using a lens on a format larger than it was made to cover. But then I'm an ignorant barbarian and insensitive to the finer points ...

Scotty230358
19-Dec-2010, 01:29
This one is marked "Series".
Also, by the time CPG Berlin got to the 600,000 range they were no longer using the "Serie" designation.
Therefore it is a B&J remount, which does not mean it is junk - it might be just fine.


This one is marked "Series".
Also, by the time CPG Berlin got to the 600,000 range they were no longer using the "Serie" designation.
Therefore it is a B&J remount, which does not mean it is junk - it might be just fine.

It is, indeed, a fine lens. It does exhibit focus shift and is not as contrasty as my more modern glass but covers 4x5 with enough room for movements when used for landscape photography. When I bought it I was attracted by the very reasonable price and, if I am honest, I was probably seduced by the "Dagor Ledgend". At the same time I was looking at a Fuji 125 that was at a very very reasonable price. I put a bid in on both and to my surprise won them both. Basically I got two nice lenses for the price of one. Then, as is my habit, I started doing some research after I bought it. It certainly is a more than capable lens for when my Photography involves arduous trekking. I can solve the any contrast issues with a bit of judicious extended development.

Steve Hamley
19-Dec-2010, 08:40
As for focus shift, a friend of mine who's been a successful commercial photographer for over 60 years said that "all lenses exhibit some degree of focus shift when stopped down. You should focus at the taking aperture or as close to it as you reasonably can." I try to follow this advice even with the latest lenses, although in any specific case it may or may not result in an observable difference. It just seems like very sound advice.

Cheers, Steve

Scotty230358
19-Dec-2010, 08:44
Steve

Thanks for that. I'm a bit of an LF newbie so helpful tips like that are always useful.

Adrian

E. von Hoegh
20-Dec-2010, 08:28
It is, indeed, a fine lens. It does exhibit focus shift and is not as contrasty as my more modern glass but covers 4x5 with enough room for movements when used for landscape photography. When I bought it I was attracted by the very reasonable price and, if I am honest, I was probably seduced by the "Dagor Ledgend". At the same time I was looking at a Fuji 125 that was at a very very reasonable price. I put a bid in on both and to my surprise won them both. Basically I got two nice lenses for the price of one. Then, as is my habit, I started doing some research after I bought it. It certainly is a more than capable lens for when my Photography involves arduous trekking. I can solve the any contrast issues with a bit of judicious extended development.

Scotty,

Back in the last millenium I did an A/B comparison between a 1959-ish 150mm convertible Symmar and a 1907-ish 6" Goerz New York Dagor.The Dagor is, of course, uncoated.
I used Fuji 50 and a compendium shade for both lenses; the shot was a landscape including the ski jumps at Lake Placid, N.Y. Film processing was simultaneous.
The results were in ALL ways indistinguishable.
The Symmar is part of a 3 lens Linhof STIV outfit. The Dagor cost me $40.00

Yours may or may not be as good as a pukka Dagor - but shade it well, focus at the working aperture, and it sounds like it will do just fine.

Now if you want a REALLY contrasty lens, there's always the 355 multicoated Gold Dot Dagor......

Jim Galli
20-Dec-2010, 09:24
I have put on my Johnny Carson 'Carnac the Magnificent' turbine and determined by holding one hand on my monitor and the other to my forehead that this lens is in fact a Burke and James product.

Nothing wrong with that. Bunk and Junk gets a LOT of bad press they DO NOT deserve. They ended up with a carload of old German production Dagor lenses after the dust of wwii ended. Who's to say that the greater percentage of those were not matched numbered sets that had remained together since manufacture? So if B&J put them into shutters and sold them, so what. I think the whole discussion of value based on provenance and direct blood line is pretty silly. Unless of course you bought something from 'galli'. That as we all know is impeccable provenance :cool: .

Mark Sawyer
20-Dec-2010, 12:18
They're all much the same. The expensive relatively modern Dagors are mainly long focus lenses. Focal length may explain their prices. Mystique, sometimes spelled mass hysteria, may also be involved...

I think it's the AR coatings and more modern shutters that boost the price among knowledgeable buyers, (and the pretty gold rims and dots among the rest of us...) My experience (based on a pretty small sampling, two new and three old Dagors) is that the more modern Dagors are also sharper at the corners. This might from better-engineered choices in the glass, but that's just my speculation...

It might be worth interjecting that the modern Plasmat was a derivative of the Dagor, known early in its life as the "air-spaced Dagor". The inner elements of the cemented Dagor triplets were separated, allowing a little more tweaking on those surfaces. It also introduced four more air-glass surfaces, making for a noticeably less-contrasty lens. Then AR coatings came along and solved that problem.


Unless of course you bought something from 'galli'. That as we all know is impeccable provenance :cool: .

Well geez, Jim, you could take the lens off a Model T headlight, stick it on a 2D, and make it shine! :D

E. von Hoegh
20-Dec-2010, 14:27
I have put on my Johnny Carson 'Carnac the Magnificent' turbine (snip) .

Now just what sort of turbine would this be? A Parsons steam turbine? A Francis? A Leffel? Some other sort that I cannot recall the name of?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:D

Scotty230358
21-Dec-2010, 14:15
As it has failed to sell I have decided to keep it and enjoy using it when appropriate.

Scotty230358
26-Dec-2010, 04:19
Just a though - is there any value in getting the moderate cleaning marks polished out?

Steven Tribe
26-Dec-2010, 05:09
Most cleaning marks that can be seen with the naked eye are so deep that polishing without the original matching profile tool will not maintain the designed radius. I don't know whether the few "jobbing" repolishing shops worldwide have machine controled polishers which can automatically measure and "follow" the original surface radius? But, in practice, you wouldn't detect any improvement in performance!

Steve Hamley
27-Dec-2010, 05:17
And polishing the marks out typically costs more than a lens with cleaning marks is worth. Usually reserved for very rare and/or expensive lenses.

Your best bet financially would be to sell the lens (or trade it in) and buy a better example.

Cheers, Steve

Nathan Smith
27-Dec-2010, 06:53
Dan, I think I bought the lens you refer to, but it hasn't yet arrived. If so, you have good eyes - no wonder it's hard to find a 'steal' on ebay any more:) It was listed under "Cameras & Photo > Digital Cameras" as an "Optimo TB 1-300 enlarging lens". Looking at the photo, all that is visible is "Goerz Dagor F:6.8 Series III", no focal length. I'd be willing to bet that the shutter is duff as a couple of holes in the sides indicate missing parts, but the price ($30) was ok and I can always use it on my Speed Graphic with the shutter blades open. I'm curious to see if it'll fit into another shutter without a special adapter.

My understanding is that Optimo shutters were actually very good and quite accurate, but the blades were made of hard rubber or "vulcanite", which were problematic - and worse, they react badly to many solvents commonly used to clean shutters, like naptha.

Nathan


Dan, I don't know for sure, don't see why not. Goerz was in the lens business, not very much in the shutter business.

There's a Dagor, focal length not specified in the listing and not visible in the product shot but probably not very long, in an Optimo on eBay right now. I thought about buying it for a few seconds, then decided that if the Optimo needs service I can't provide it and it isn't clear who can.

Dan Fromm
27-Dec-2010, 07:26
Nathan, that's the one. I just stumbled across it while looking for something else.

When you get it, please tell me the focal length. I won't feel bad that I didn't get it.

Cheers,

Dan

Scotty230358
27-Dec-2010, 10:23
And polishing the marks out typically costs more than a lens with cleaning marks is worth. Usually reserved for very rare and/or expensive lenses.

Your best bet financially would be to sell the lens (or trade it in) and buy a better example.

Cheers, Steve

I've just had a quote of $1200 for a polish and re-coat (that won't be happening) and $195 for a hand polish. Mind you if this lens is single coated (I can see a purple reflection) that may well remove what coating is left. My two attempts at selling it have been unsuccessful so I may as well hang on to it.

Mark Sawyer
27-Dec-2010, 10:30
Give the old girl a whirl before you pass judgement, Scotty. My old 12-inch Dagor gives very sharp and wonderful results even though it'd scarred and battle-weary:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/IMG_6114.jpg

Scotty230358
27-Dec-2010, 10:59
Give the old girl a whirl before you pass judgement, Scotty. My old 12-inch Dagor gives very sharp and wonderful results even though it'd scarred and battle-weary:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/IMG_6114.jpg

Hells Teeth :eek: . Mine is nowhere near as bad as that. There's hope yet :)

Dan Fromm
27-Dec-2010, 12:25
Scotty, stop gnashing your teeth and use the fool thing.

Nathan Smith
27-Dec-2010, 15:16
Just got it this afternoon, Dan. Looks like a 7", though the writing is very dim - it could be 7 1/2 I guess.

The shutter is working, though I don't know about accuracy, BUT the front lens group is not unscrewing from the shutter so far. I'll give it a little penetrating oil and let it sit a while. You may have been the wiser of us on this one :)

Nathan


Nathan, that's the one. I just stumbled across it while looking for something else.

When you get it, please tell me the focal length. I won't feel bad that I didn't get it.

Cheers,

Dan

Dan Fromm
27-Dec-2010, 16:26
Thanks for the update, Nathan.

Me? Wiser? No way. I'm getting been getting older all my life. As they say, there's no fool like an older one.

I suspected the lens was from a Kodak folder, decided it had to be an early one 'cos the shutter's diaphragm is on the U.S. system. EKCo folder means the lens was no less than a 4", probably 6" or 7", maybe perhaps around 5". I have nice coated 90/6.8, 135/6.8, and 180/6.8 Beryls so didn't think a mystery Dagor in Optimo shutter would bring much to me. If I didn't have the Beryls I'd probably have taken a chance and grabbed it. Cheap enough ...

Have you tried the "press the front of the lens against a tire sidewall and turn" trick on it? It sometimes works. If the front cell won't come out you can always clean the inner surface from behind.

Anyway I'm sure you'll make it work and enjoy using it. I think enough of Beryls that I've retired my 210/9 Konica Hexanon GR II in favor of a 210/7.7 Beryl S and am retiring a 180/10 Apo Saphir in favor of my 180/6.8 Beryl. The A-S is a bit better but it is a bit dimmer too.

Nathan Smith
27-Dec-2010, 18:57
It did come free after all, btw. I'll quick hijacking this thread now and start a new one.


... BUT the front lens group is not unscrewing from the shutter so far. I'll give it a little penetrating oil and let it sit a while. You may have been the wiser of us on this one :)
Nathan