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James Olson
14-Dec-2010, 07:20
Is there a roll film holder that you can slide in like a regular film holder that works well
and is reliable. I am looking for one that is not much larger than a regular film holder

jim olson

Mark Barendt
14-Dec-2010, 07:23
Calumet C2.

monsta
14-Dec-2010, 07:37
Toyo roll film holders can on some backs but not others.

Vaughn
14-Dec-2010, 07:45
I have the Calumet. It does work well, but a built-in problem with this type is that the design bends the film tightly around a roller in the opposite direction of the way the film is normally rolled. If one stops mid-roll for a day or more, the film memorizes this opposite bend where it goes around the roller. This keeps the film from rolling up tight on the take-up reel.

I had to unload the holder in a dark bag and hand-tighten the roll to prevent light fogging the film. Other than that (and accidently loading the film backwards a couple of times), the holder is easy to use and seemed to keep the film nice and flat when exposed.

Vaughn

Gem Singer
14-Dec-2010, 07:56
The newer Cambo roll film holders sold by Calumet Photo. are a much improved version of the old C-2's.

Made in the Netherlands, they are spendy but lighter in weight and more precision built.

Bob Salomon
14-Dec-2010, 08:06
Linhof Rapid Rollex is made for both 4x5 and 6x9 cameras.

Armin Seeholzer
14-Dec-2010, 08:26
Yes the Linhof Rapid and the Sinar Toyo and Horseman are the best in the part of film flatness!

Kirk Gittings
14-Dec-2010, 08:27
I used the 6x9 Calumet C2N holders for years for my primary film holder when shooting commercial architecture. I carried three for transparencies (1 for ASA 100 and one for ASA 400 film) and color negatives and used them so much that I wore out 6 in like four years. I did not experience the problems Vaughn mentioned. The main problem I saw was scratches from the piece of felt that creates some tension before the bend. I found it necessary to blow that off with air when reloading each time. I also found the plastic dark slides would crack and break at the end, so I made my own out of sheet brass.

Vaughn
14-Dec-2010, 08:34
Kirk, I used Kodak color negative film in the holder -- don't know if the type of film base plays a part in the problem I mentioned above. And it could be that my particular holder had a unique problem rolling the film tight on the take-up reel. I only had the one, and it did not get all that much use.

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 08:36
I have the Calumet. It does work well, but a built-in problem with this type is that the design bends the film tightly around a roller in the opposite direction of the way the film is normally rolled. If one stops mid-roll for a day or more, the film memorizes this opposite bend where it goes around the roller. This keeps the film from rolling up tight on the take-up reel.

I had to unload the holder in a dark bag and hand-tighten the roll to prevent light fogging the film. Other than that (and accidently loading the film backwards a couple of times), the holder is easy to use and seemed to keep the film nice and flat when exposed.

Vaughn

I doubt very much that this problem was due to the cause you mention. The film is bend several times on its path to the take up spool and thus needs quite some force to wind up on it. That force itself is already the guarantee that the film will be wound up tightly.
More probably your problem was due to the film slightly misaligned on its path and that makes it sometimes wound up in an irregular way. Happened to me once or twice before I started to check the alignment before I close the film compartment.
As Kirk said, me too I've used the C2n (6x12) for more than 15 years and regard it as a reliable piece of equipment.

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 08:40
And indeed, the plastic dark slide breaks - in cold -0C temperatures. Managed to glue it with a piece of plastic and contact cement (fortunately it broke in its outer piece)... The original material is not correctly chosen for outdoor use.

Vaughn
14-Dec-2010, 08:58
You might be right GPS, but for now I will stick to my scenario. My premise is based on how the film looked on the take up reel. I have used 120 cameras since 1975 and lining up the film on the take-up reel correctly is second nature to me, and while it seems unlikely that I would always mis-allign the film, I suppose it is possible. It has been 15 years or so since I last used it.

I bought the holder new in the late 1980's -- perhaps it is an earlier model.

Brian K
14-Dec-2010, 09:12
I've used the Sinar zoom and zoom II models for about 15 years and have found them to have the flattest film and to be very reliable. They allow you to change the format at anytime on a roll for everything from 6x4.5, 6, 7, 9, 12 formats. It is a slip in film holder and will fit most view camera backs. I've used it on Sinar, Linhof and Canham.

The downsides are that if you don't keep the felt on the film cartridge really clean it will scratch and if you use a flimsy camera the rear standard might tilt slightly due to the weight.

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 09:22
One must keep in mind the fact that other roll film holders too use the backward bending mechanism (Horseman). Besides, the film roll itself can be rolled up for years before it's unrolled... I leave the film in my C2N for weeks - just put the whole thing with its film in my fridge and use it again when I need. Misaligned film, on the other hand, can mess up whatever roll film holder - even the excellent Mamiya press ones. Happened to me even in a Linhof 617 camera and other cameras too. Never mind.

rguinter
14-Dec-2010, 10:31
You might be right GPS, but for now I will stick to my scenario. My premise is based on how the film looked on the take up reel. I have used 120 cameras since 1975 and lining up the film on the take-up reel correctly is second nature to me, and while it seems unlikely that I would always mis-allign the film, I suppose it is possible. It has been 15 years or so since I last used it.

I bought the holder new in the late 1980's -- perhaps it is an earlier model.

I've had some problems lately with loosely spooled MF film on the take-up spool.

I traced my probelm to (a combination of) poor quality-control on take-up spools and 120 film backing paper. If the paper is cut a millimeter too wide and the spool is molded a millimeter too narrow then it tended to cause the same loose-spooling problem the OP described. It was becoming quite a nightmare with certain cameras I use frequently.

Seemed to be the spools coming from my IR films that were the biggest problem. i.e., Efke, Rollei, and Ilford.

My solution was to post here to buy a large batch of Fujifilm EF Easyloading spools.These seem to be made with the best quality control and have molded-in grippers in the slot for gripping film leaders tightly.

I now use these spools exclusively for all my MF shooting and I instruct the lab to return them when processing my film. And I've had no more loosely wound film since.

Cheers. Bob G.

Bob Salomon
14-Dec-2010, 10:54
I've had some problems lately with loosely spooled MF film on the take-up spool.

Other factors can also be in play. Those of us old enough to remember the Colorama exhibit by Kodak at Grand Central Station in NYC will think of a large 6x17 magnification image.

We had sold Kodak a few of the original Linhof 617 cameras to take many of those display images with. As time went on Kodak started to have a problem stripping gears in the film transport with those cameras but other customers were not having the same problem. Kodak sent us a bunch of film to test along with two Kodak film engineers. We bought some Fuji, Agfa and Ilford film also for testing while the engineers were here.

What was happening was that the Kodak film (120) was not slipping out of the supply spool at the end of the role without applying excessive force to the winding mechanism. That could strip the gears if enough force was applied. The Fuji, Agfa and Ilford films slipped easily out of the spool at the end of the roll with no force needed.

The conclusion of the engineers was that the Kodak backing paper was not as smooth as the others which had some plastic products in the paper to make it smoother and to have less drag.

Once we found that Kodak's photographers stopped winding if the film did not release from the spool at the end of the roll and the problem was solved.

Then there was a problem with the Rollei 6XXX and SLX cameras with some films. These cameras were motor driven and fused. Occasionally we found that customers were blowing fuses and having jammed film. What we found was that some films were not centered on the roll and were against the flange instead of being between the flanges. If the film was not inserted into the film inserts properly the film that was mis-centered would pile up against a flange and blow the fuse.

The moral is, be careful that the film is properly loaded in your back and stop if you feel resitance beyond what you should normally feel.

Vaughn
14-Dec-2010, 11:26
If I exposed the whole roll with in a few hours, I never had any problems with the film winding up loosely (allowing light to fog the film), only when I left the film in the camera for any long period of time. And since it was a consistant problem, I took care when loading the film.

But thanks, GPS, for making it clear that it could very well be user error. Since my results have always been consistant to what I wrote above, it is interesting and educational to find that I am the only one who has experienced this problem -- considering that people have stored similar holders with film in them for long periods of time.

I have used the holder mostly in humid conditions -- humid/cool in Humboldt County and humid/hot in Australia. But humidity probably is not a factor.

I will have to haul out the holder if I can track it down. I remember the mechanism to keep the film tightly wound on the take-up reel was a minimal affair -- which has me wondering if I do have an earlier Calumet model 6x7 holder.

What year did the C2N come out?

Vaughn

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 11:58
...
I will have to haul out the holder if I can track it down. I remember the mechanism to keep the film tightly wound on the take-up reel was a minimal affair -- which has me wondering if I do have an earlier Calumet model 6x7 holder.

What year did the C2N come out?

Vaughn

The mechanism on the take up spool to keep the film wound up on it is just a simple pair of spring arms. That's perfectly enough to hold the film end from unwinding. Any other rollfilm holders use the same force to achieve this, even if they use thin springy metal tongue to that purpose (Mamiya holders, Linhof 120 film cameras, Horseman RF holders etc.)
I bought my C2N in 1994 and it was already the new type (N).

Vaughn
14-Dec-2010, 12:39
Alright found mine! Right where I thought in might be -- in the back of desk drawer at work. Amazing.

Mine must be an older model. No felt anywhere in the holder as Kirk mentioned and the darkslide is metal (original). No model number anywhere, just the Calumet tag. The two cast parts of the holder are numbered inside: C2102 and C2103 -- it is an all metal model.

It does have the two simple spring arms that GPS mentioned, but they are rather whimpy. Perhaps that was one of the improvements made with the C2N. One winds up ~14" of film/leader after the film completely leaves the film reel -- 14" to wind up without a lot of tension, so those spring arms (or clips) are pretty important.

When I unloaded the holder in the darkbag, it was not difficult to tighten up the film on the take-up reel -- a bit of a tug on the leader to suck in the film nice and tight. Always felt to be a tightness problem, not a mis-alignment, but it has been awhile.

Vaughn

PS -- just check Calumet's site and there are minor differences between mine and what is shown (and of course the price difference!)

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 13:04
Don't be mistaken on that - the spring arms are there not to make the film wound up tightly. Their roll is just to impede unrolling of the film end after the whole film is wound up. What makes the film tightly rolled up is the drag created by all those bends on the film path. To drag the film through it you need quite some force. In the case of this Calumet RF holder that drag is more than enough to hold the film tight while you wind it up.

GPS
14-Dec-2010, 15:07
I used the 6x9 Calumet C2N holders for years for my primary film holder when shooting commercial architecture. I carried three for transparencies (1 for ASA 100 and one for ASA 400 film) and color negatives and used them so much that I wore out 6 in like four years.
...

Kirk, in an older thread I asked you about it but did not get any answer so here I go again - what part exactly did you wore out on those film holders??

Dan Fromm
14-Dec-2010, 16:41
In honor of what GPS refers to as "old wooden spookies" let me add the all-metal, except for the dark slide, Adapt-A-Roll 620 to the list of slip-in roll holders. I use 'em with my 2x3 Graphics, wouldn't recommend 'em in favor of similar modern roll holders that take 120 spools at both ends of the film, sorry, backing paper.

But for those of us who shoot 2x3 (medium format) with 2x3 (medium format) press cameras AARs are an alternative to the said-to-be so-so Graflex roll holders what attach to a Graflok back. They were made to fit 2x3, 3x4, and 4x5 cameras with spring backs, also insert into Graflok backs. As far as I know the modern slip-in types are made only for 4x5 cameras.

Fans of Rube Goldberg would love the AAR film counter. As the film 'rounds the bend at the far end of the holder it passes over and, all being well turns, a roller with a cam. The cam whacks a pushrod that in turn pushes on a gear under the film counter dial. So, one step/rotation of the roller. The film counter is ratcheted, makes one click/push, four clicks/2x3 frame.

Oren Grad
14-Dec-2010, 16:50
As far as I know the modern slip-in types are made only for 4x5 cameras.

Further to Bob Salomon's point above, the Linhof 6x7 Rapid Rollex is available in a mini-version that will slide into 2x3 spring backs. I have one. Very pricey new, but with patience they can be had for semi-reasonable prices used.

Kirk Gittings
14-Dec-2010, 17:11
Kirk, in an older thread I asked you about it but did not get any answer so here I go again - what part exactly did you wore out on those film holders??

Sorry I don't remember that. After awhile the gears got worn and sloppy and jumped teeth throwing off the spacing. Or the reset button on top by the crank got sloppy and wouldn't push the hear down to reset the counter. Replacement gear boxes were expensive enough (and my holders were beat up enough) that I would just replace the whole unit when that started happening.

GPS
15-Dec-2010, 01:48
That's correct, the wheel assembly was not designed for the wear and tear. Fortunately they later discovered that and changed the construction with better material. I know it because I complained to the factory about the badly chosen material and they send me new parts, redesigned, which replaced the worn out pieces - it was cheaper than to send it for their repair in the factory.

rdenney
15-Dec-2010, 02:48
The Sinar roll-film holders are slide-in designs, and they have no problems holding the film flat. They come in 6x9, 6x12 ("Panoramic"), and the Vario and Zoom models that can be used with 645, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, and 6x12. The Vario and Zoom are far more common. Unlike most, they will allow 220 film.

I have a Vario plus a number of others that are not slide-in models. The Vario is the one I use for nearly everything.

Rick "who still has quite a bit of 220 film in the freezer" Denney

Bob Salomon
15-Dec-2010, 02:56
See message 6 in this thread.

[QUOTE=Dan Fromm;660682..... As far as I know the modern slip-in types are made only for 4x5 cameras.
[/QUOTE]

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2010, 06:00
Thanks, Bob. I did a quick search on Rapid Rollex, found only ones with 6x7 gates. Is/was it offered with 6x9 gate too?