View Full Version : PayPal Incident
Cesare Berti
10-Dec-2010, 13:41
I would like to share a recent experience with PayPal.
I'm mainly a buyer on Ebay but in October I sold a Super Ikonta to a gentleman in Hong Kong. Living in Canada there were only two shipping options via Canada Post, expedited air $75 (7-10 day delivery) or International ground $35 (4-6 weeks). The buyer wanted the expedited option for the international ground price. After much back and forth he paid for the camera +the $35 through PayPal and the item was mailed, insured with a tracking number which I forwarded to the buyer.
Within two weeks I received notice of a dispute from PayPal and a "claim" the next day. This resulted in the funds being frozen in my account and my account balance going negative. Even though I could prove the item was mailed, I scanned and sent the invoices along with the tracking number, the payment was reversed. I called PayPal and they said the Canada Post tracking site was unclear (the site simply states the package has left the country). I suggested my options and influence with the national postal service site was rather limited. They did offer that once the item arrived I could appeal.
Since no signature is required the buyer if he is so inclined can enjoy his free camera.
Having been mainly a buyer I can somewhat understand the bias but it sure seems a case of being guilty until proven innocent. I've had over 120 transactions on Ebay and about 30 on this forum with without a single issue but that did not seen to matter.
After this experience I searched this forum and read with interest the thread started by Brian Ellis back in Jan of this year. I wish I had read it sooner.
As always know the rules of the game if you are going to play.
Someone once opened a paypal dispute claiming a lens I sent them was faulty.
I could even provide video evidence of the lens working on a camera, focusing etc. Paypal weren't interested.
Negative balance, frozen account, banned, locked out and my details are on their blacklist.
I guess this is why I will always remain a buyer instead of seller re: ebay. Much prefer to do business here or the other usual fora. Everything transaction I've had here has been positive (in fact, I bought some gear off Cesare and we met up at a Timmys for coffee and gear talk).
Hope it works out for for you Cesare.
Fred
Henry Ambrose
10-Dec-2010, 16:24
This is one reason why shipping out of your home country is a problem. You have no way to prove the buyer got the item unless you use a very expensive shipping service.
The companies involved in encouraging this cross border trade would have you believe that you are protected against this sort of thing. Its not true as you know now.
Sorry for your loss.
B.S.Kumar
10-Dec-2010, 16:56
I bought a couple of lenses from Cesare, and since they weren't particularly expensive, opted for regular airmail, and told him I was taking the risk. They arrived here in ~4 weeks safely. With anything over $100, I always insist on EMS, which is tracked and insured for the whole amount, including shipping.
In this case, if there is a tracking number, you could check the HK Post site here: http://app3.hongkongpost.com/CGI/mt/enquiry.jsp Tracking systems in many countries are pathetic, with incomplete and delayed information. Fortunately for me, JapanPost has real time tracking. Every stage is documented properly and is visible online instantly.
Kumar
Cesare Berti
10-Dec-2010, 17:46
Kumar, many thanks for the link to the Hong Kong post office.
While the Canada Post tracking number was not recognized it did mention a way to send the buyer's address information and Can Post tracking number to them. We will see how it goes.
neil poulsen
10-Dec-2010, 19:08
Having been aware that these types of problems can occur, I sell only within the U.S.
B.S.Kumar
10-Dec-2010, 19:33
Having been aware that these types of problems can occur, I sell only within the U.S.
And what about all those instances where the UPS/Fedex driver in the good ol' US of A leaves it on the porch and it gets stolen/wet, or hurls it over the fence, as has been reported in this forum?
The US isn't immune to these problems. But I can state confidently that no courier in Japan or India delivers a package without a signature. In Japan, we have a post box on the ground floor of our apartment building, and if an unregistered package is too large to fit, the postman/courier delivers it to the door. If there's no one at home, he will leave a note, and I can pick it up, or have it delivered at a convenient time.
Kumar
Brian Ellis
10-Dec-2010, 21:13
And what about all those instances where the UPS/Fedex driver in the good ol' US of A leaves it on the porch and it gets stolen/wet, or hurls it over the fence, as has been reported in this forum?
The US isn't immune to these problems. But I can state confidently that no courier in Japan or India delivers a package without a signature. In Japan, we have a post box on the ground floor of our apartment building, and if an unregistered package is too large to fit, the postman/courier delivers it to the door. If there's no one at home, he will leave a note, and I can pick it up, or have it delivered at a convenient time.
Kumar
IIRC the US Post Office won't deliver anything that's insured for over $100 without a signature. And if no one's home same thing is done as you outline here.
B.S.Kumar
10-Dec-2010, 21:32
IIRC the US Post Office won't deliver anything that's insured for over $100 without a signature. And if no one's home same thing is done as you outline here.
I'm not talking of only registered or insured packages, but also unregistered/uninsured ones that are too large to fit in the post box, as with the lenses from Cesare, or the Paterson tank and reels I bought on this forum.
And Cesare, if the buyer says the camera wasn't delivered, tell him to send you a mail/letter, and you should be able to get your money back, since it was insured. It is also possible that the camera is "missing", meaning that perhaps it is in a corner where no one has noticed it. I once got a lens delivered after two months. Since it was bought on a forum, and wasn't expensive, both the seller and I decided to give it some time before making a claim. Fortunately, our patience was rewarded.
Kumar
Scotty230358
11-Dec-2010, 00:22
I too had a similar problem with PayPal. I sold nearly $1800 of kit to a single buyer. Said buyer held on to the kit of nearly two months without any communication with me and then hit me with a dispute claiming one of the items had serious faults. PayPal immediately locked my account. Luckily the descriptions I gave were so explicit I won the dispute. It took nearly three months to sort this out before my account was restored and nearly a year before my Ebay feedback got to 100%. In my discussions openly admitted that they favour the buyer in these cases leaving the burden of proof on the seller.
May I encourage you guys that it has nothing to do with overseas sales. The insured postage option is not negotiable for the seller. Do not sell anything without insurance for the whole lot and then some.
As a buyer I insist on insurance at all times but that's only because I'm legit. I haven't sold anything yet but I can assure you it will only be sent with full insurance with tracking.
I rely on people to sell overseas because I'm in Australia. There is never any issue if the terms of sale are fully explained.
My experience is that very few items are damaged in transit. I recently got a bent darkslide in a batch of film holders but this was because of poor packaging and I can't recall the last item that was damaged.
The FedEx and UPS options are a waste of time. The items arrive in a very similar timeframe regardless of courier. Think about it ... they're on the same plane !!
Overall ... full insurance with a return option. No escape then as a buyer ... you're locked in!
If people don't sell out of the US then there will be a very great impediment on the survival of this craft outside of the US. Those in the US might not fully appreciate how hard it is to get stuff.
Cheers,
Vlad Soare
11-Dec-2010, 03:40
Having been aware that these types of problems can occur, I sell only within the U.S.
Neil, the US are by no means immune to these problems, and the tracking system of USPS isn't necessarily better than the ones of foreign postal services (actually, sometimes it's the other way around).
Dishonest buyers can be anywhere, and an American buyer can file a dispute with PayPal just as easily as a Chinese one.
If you choose not to ship outside US, that's fine with me. It's your choice, and I can respect that. But please, don't encourage others to do the same. Getting LF stuff in other parts of the world is already difficult as it is.
Steven Tribe
11-Dec-2010, 05:09
Although you may not get much tracking information out of post Canada - there are often other options within the country it has been sent to.
Danish post is very sparse with info once it leaves the country - but I have had success with tracing foreign origin post sent to Italy. I could see when the buyer got the note that it had arrived, the exact post office where the item was and the date and time he eventually picked it up! I know that the EMS site for tracking (especialy to China) works too.
sorry to hear this. i have found that the chinese like to haggle...all the time.....but in my experience they will agree to your terms, especially when your terms were stated from the beginning.
i never ever ever ship overseas with anything less than express mail when using e bay.... i will only consider shipping priority mail overseas to people on this forum.
never never never ship anything by surface mail outside of your own country. it takes too long and the buyer gets worried.
Deane Johnson
11-Dec-2010, 07:59
IMO, Paypal give people a major false sense of security. The experiences in this thread sort of support my feelings. Sorry this happened. The disappointment runs far deeper than just the monetary loss.
My experiences have been much better. I liquidated all of my LF gear on this forum to members of the forum. I accepted personal checks and sent the goods before the checks even arrived. Never an issue. Made me feel good to be dealing with fine folks.
Jim Noel
11-Dec-2010, 09:04
As long as people keep using PayPal such incidents will continue. I long ago quit using the system for anything. If I can not work out payment utilizing some other method, I don't make the deal.
Cesare Berti
12-Dec-2010, 08:33
Despite my recent experience I agree with Steve in Australia and Vlad in Romania. It's likely the large format world will continue to slowly shrink and an international community and perspective will help the craft survive.
That being said many of the forum members who commented have it right, ensure the buyer is fully aware of the shipping cost, if the buyer balks move on. Insist on insurance, a tracking system and no international surface (with the exception of Kumar of course). surface.
myoptic
14-Dec-2010, 18:17
fwiw I regularly use THE auction site as a buyer, and have sold a lot of photographica through it as well. About 200 transactions, and only a couple dozen were Not using Paypal. I have bought from UK, France, Germany, USA, and Oz. I have sold in Canada, USA and across Europe without any problems. Maybe I've been lucky.....but I try, as best as I can, to be prudent as buyer and seller.
The FedEx and UPS options are a waste of time. The items arrive in a very similar timeframe regardless of courier. Think about it ... they're on the same plane !!
Actually UPS/Fedex have there own fleets of aircraft. USPS primarliy delivers via commercial airliner. Not saying that's better- I've had UPS deliver things to my house that were actually for my neighbor one block down. It happened to a co-worker as well- they aren't always very careful apparently.
CP Goerz
14-Dec-2010, 22:28
I probably lose a lot of bidders because I insist on shipping any item overseas with Tracking via Priority etc. As Paypal will quote you every time, 'insurance is for the 'sellers' protection, not the buyer'. Towards that end I let all buyers overseas that insurance/tracking are mandatory.
Its tough to sell on Ebay without paypal, they have the lockdown essentially. I think fondly of the days when I would have a few money orders in my mailbox :-) And yes, in Ebay/Paypal's eyes, you as a seller are guilty of 'ripping people off' till either the buyer lets you off the hook/gets the item/wants to return it.
No return policy? Forget it! Any buyer can come up with the flimsiest of excuses to avoid that, I have offered to send ebay images/video and even the actual item itself but they don't want to get involved, they'll just refund the buyer and you have to beg to get the fees they ripped you for in the process. Ahhh Fun Times!! :-)
"Its tough to sell on Ebay without paypal, they have the lockdown essentially. I think fondly of the days when I would have a few money orders in my mailbox." Goertz
Right. I almost never buy on Ebay now because they encourage sellers to use Pay Pal, and oddly enough so many sellers have accepted this pressure. Pay Pal protection and convenience is overstated. Obviously, Ebay-Pay Pal put a lot of pressure on folks to maximize thier fees. I opened a Pay Pal account once, and I received so much hard sell promotion material and endured so many repeated attempts by hackers to crack the account that I closed it immediately. Pay Pal made it very hard for me to close the account as well.
Now, I always look to the forum and friends for purchases. I have had very good luck using Western Union since I am overseas for the time being. If the buyer picks up his payment at a Western Union office in cash [not a Western Union draft] nothing can go wrong for him. It seems that I am always a buyer. And to be sure the buyer has all of the risk with this kind of transaction. But I have only had one bad experience [my last purchase on Ebay] with a Belgian guy living in Brussels [Marc Steurbaut] who sent me all kinds of self contradicting excuses, but never the light meter, which I purchased by cashier's check.
I seem to be able to find what I need eventually on this forum --along with a good deal of sound advice on how to make the best of the purchases. No system is entirely theft proof, but one giant step in the right direction is to abandon Ebay altogether. It's no fun anymore with all of the Pay Pal pressure. And I too prefer the simpler days of money orders, which I used in my early Ebay days for domestic purchases.
--Joe
"Its tough to sell on Ebay without paypal, they have the lockdown essentially. I think fondly of the days when I would have a few money orders in my mailbox." Goertz
Right. I almost never buy on Ebay now because they encourage sellers to use Pay Pal, and oddly enough so many sellers have accepted this pressure. Pay Pal protection and convenience is overstated. Obviously, Ebay-Pay Pal put a lot of pressure on folks to maximize thier fees. I opened a Pay Pal account once, and I received so much hard sell promotion material and endured so many repeated attempts by hackers to crack the account that I closed it immediately. Pay Pal made it very hard for me to close the account as well.
Now, I always look to the forum and friends for purchases. I have had very good luck using Western Union since I am overseas for the time being. If the buyer picks up his payment at a Western Union office in cash [not a Western Union draft] nothing can go wrong for him. It seems that I am always a buyer. And to be sure the buyer has all of the risk with this kind of transaction. But I have only had one bad experience [my last purchase on Ebay] with a Belgian guy living in Brussels [Marc Steurbaut] who sent me all kinds of self contradicting excuses, but never the light meter, which I purchased by cashier's check.
I seem to be able to find what I need eventually on this forum --along with a good deal of sound advice on how to make the best of the purchases. No system is entirely theft proof, but one giant step in the right direction is to abandon Ebay altogether. It's no fun anymore with all of the Pay Pal pressure. And I too prefer the simpler days of money orders, which I used in my early Ebay days for domestic purchases.
--Joe
Vlad Soare
15-Dec-2010, 01:11
Joe, Western Union is not only extremely unsafe for the buyer, but it's very expensive, and you must go in person to one of their offices, during their opening hours (which usually coincide with your own working hours), and fill out a long form. By contrast, PayPal is cheap, and you can pay in less than thirty seconds, with just a couple of mouse clicks, without even leaving your armchair. I used to pay by Western Union a few years ago, before PayPal became available in Romania, and I must say it was a real pain in the rear. And outrageously expensive, too.
If you live in the US, and only buy from US-based sellers, and only ship within US, then you can afford to boycott PayPal. But for a buyer located outside US, PayPal is the best invention since sliced bread.
Sellers can use their merchant credit card a counts on eBay to accpet payment. And even say no paypal then as well.
Are you listening CP?
Scott Walker
15-Dec-2010, 07:35
I don't think it matters what form of payment is used, if you encounter a dishonest person, chances are you will lose something. If you sell enough over the Internet you will sooner or later get ripped off. Boycotting paypal or not shipping internationally will hurt the seller because you are limiting your buying audience which of course will affect the selling price of your product. The best you can do is follow all the proper protocols to limit your vulnerability and learn from mistakes made the odd time someone jacks you.
In the days before paypal I shipped lots of product UPS, COD and I thought it was safe until I sent a few thousand dollars worth of stuff to the wrong person. UPS had a box you could check that instructed the driver that only cash could be accepted which meant that the person receiving the package could pay with cash or with a certified cheque payable to UPS only and if the cheque was returned UPS dealt with it and the sender still got paid. So how could you go wrong. I sent a COD package and it was delivered and the driver picked up a certified cheque, immediately upon completing the transaction the receiving party phoned UPS frantically requesting that they send the driver back because the COD package was to be refused and if the girl didn't get the cheque that she had given the driver back she would loose her job. Dispatch radioed the driver and he was back within a very short period and made the exchange. UPS sent the package back to me, it was empty of course. When confronted by the UPS investigator the customer explained that it didn't surprise her that the package was empty because the last order that we sent her was missing some of the product and that is why she refused the order, case closed, I lost even though UPS had never had a claim filed against me for any reason.
Brian Ellis
15-Dec-2010, 08:04
I ran into a new ebay/Pay Pal problem recently that I never heard of before. I submitted a bid on an item and the bid was rejected by ebay. I was told by my sniping service that it was rejected because the seller required that a bidders' Pay Pal account and ebay account be "linked." I looked at the listing again and didn't see anything about "linked" accounts.
When I asked my sniping service about this they said the sellers don't need to say anything specific, if they say something like "payment by Pay Pal only" then it means they want a linked account. That seems strange because it's my understanding that the only way to pay on ebay these days is by Pay Pal (and that other service, the name of which I can't remember). But if I list an item and say "Pay Pal only" to refelct this requirement I'm apparently requiring a linked account, which I don't want to do because I have no idea what it accomplishes and requiring it loses bidders.
Anyone else run into this "linked account" business and know why some sellers want it, what it accomplishes for a bidder if anything, how to go about doing it, etc.?
srbphoto
15-Dec-2010, 09:36
I used to do a lot of selling on feEbay (over 1200 positives, 0 neg). All with Paypal and many overseas.
My rule for overseas is: If you don't want to pay the shipping I am willing to use, then you don't want the item.
With Paypal, (I haven't been very active for a couple of years so they may have changed how things are done) I have my account linked to a small (VERY small) bank account. As soon as I have over $100 in Paypal, I send it to my bank account. When it hits that account I withdraw it and put in my "real" account. That way they can only stop me from using Paypal but it gives me some time if they are trying to get $ from me. I have only had it happen once. The package took a month to get to Germany. The buyer received it during the dispute and it was settled.
As you can see from these comments using Pay Pay and even Ebay purchases themselves are becoming increasingly complicated. You know, its still possible to walk into a shop and purchase things directly from human beings. This forum is a marvelous source, too [the best, I think]. And so far at least, I have been able to work around Pay Pal. If not, I just don't buy, and with no hard feelings. I just think that the desireability of Ebay shopping and the convenience of Pay Pal payment is overstated. I don't know, but I guess I don't mind a walk down to the WU office when I am out of the country [or the post office when I am in the US], a stop for a cup of coffee, and a little flirting with a salesgirl [and more if I am lucky] when I execute these little transactions. A lot can happen on the way to the store that cannot happen by clicking a mouse from an armchair. [I suppose that you could get run over by a bus too, but Lord, a guy just has to get out of bed in the morning and take his chances at some point without further analysis].
I think the best answer is to deal a bit more directly with people --even if its just a matter of closing the circle of sellers and buyers with whom we deal a little. Cross boarder purchases in particular tempt parties to take advantage of others --even companies that you would think are respectable. For example, Fotoimpex-
Adox just dumped 5 boxes of expired [over one-year old and apparently discontinued] 8x10 ortho film on me simply because they knew I was in China and they are in Berlin. There is always going to be a thief out there, and I guess there are two ways of dealing with him: 1. Ignore him and be happy that our lives are otherwise good [i.e. ignore a few bumps in the road sometimes for the sake of peace], or 2. at least in the case of a shop purchase, you can take the seller or buyer by the throat and shake your money or your camera out his pockets. Now in the case of Fotoimpex, they don't seem to realize that I might enjoy a little ride to Berlin, and I am just not enlightened enough to recognize the value of plan "1" above.
rguinter
15-Dec-2010, 10:31
All this deja vu all-over-again, all-over-again, all-over again!
Getting to sound like one of those classic "broken records" we all used to mention... like a 33LP jumping back to the same groove over and over and over again. Paypal ripped me off... skippppp... Paypal ripped me off... skipppp... Paypal ripped me off... etc., etc., ad nauseum.
I have over 1000 purchases on the current auction site... several within the last month. All the big ones have been postal money orders and (yes actually) a few in cash. I can only remember one seller who refused to accept a money order payment when I asked... and this is still an option for sellers. Who on earth is worried about the possible loss of one letter containing $25 sent in the mail out of over a thousand? Why would anyone want to deal with paypal for that? I completely can't fathom. I've saved more in paypal fees alone than I could possibly lose on any one upcoming purchase.
Some of the other posters have followed my example and I applaud them. I sold items on ebay at one time but the instant they went to paypal required I stopped.
Ebay owns paypal... and wants everyone to use it. Go figure!
So get real people. If you go back to an original cash-and-carry type of mentality you really have very little to lose, except the constantly increasing fees, the obvious hassles that so many are reporting, a little bit of added time, and that always increasing risk of identity theft of important financial data.
My 1-1/2 cents and consistent with my (largely) cynical lifestyle.
Bob G.
CP Goerz
15-Dec-2010, 10:59
Hey Eddie,
I'm aware that there are 'other' payment methods but they all have one thing in common...the buyer can ask for a refund and get it every time for ANY reason even after weeks after receiving the item. Here is the official Ebay rule page on payments, I've abbreviated the part where they take cash and MO's because that is only applicable to cars/business and industrial and a few other sections.
Our Accepted Payments policy helps ensure that buyers and sellers on eBay are offered safe, convenient payment options.
For most categories, sellers need to offer one or more of the following electronic payment choices:
PayPal
ProPay
Moneybookers
Paymate
Credit card or debit card processed through the seller's Internet merchant account
Additionally, payment upon pickup and Bill Me Later are valid payment methods as well.
Payment methods not allowed on eBay:
For most categories, sellers can't ask buyers to:
Send cash through the mail
Send cash or money orders through instant, point-to-point cash transfer services (that are not banks) such as Western Union or MoneyGram
Mail checks or money orders (except for items in categories specifically permitted below)
Pay through bank-to-bank transfers (except for items in categories specifically permitted below)
Pay by "topping off" a seller's prepaid credit or debit card
Pay using online or other payment methods not specifically permitted in this policy.
Scott-Ebay/Paypal will 'withdraw' funds from your linked bank account and the bank will pay them whether you have enough funds to cover the debit or not. In addition you'll have an overdraft fee on top of all the hassle to pay for too. I spoke to a guy at the bank and he said that the agreement we click 'accept' to is iron clad and gives them a LOT of power over your bank account.
As for not selling on Ebay, well I can't sell here because I'm a 'dealer', I think thats one of the rules here. Starting my own webpage?...looked into it and found it totally impractical for the kind of things I sell. I guess its like complaining about gas prices, we all do it but how many of us are going to go out and start drilling for oil and refining it ourselves?
You could only allow them to pay in person in cash, but then they could mug you and take the item. Every transaction carries some sort of risk.
Brian Ellis
15-Dec-2010, 13:20
"Our Accepted Payments policy helps ensure that buyers and sellers on eBay are offered safe, convenient payment options."
Written in plain and realistic English, what they're saying is "Our Accepted Payments policy helps insure that we collect two fees on every transaction."
Am I missing something here?
ok, I don't sell anything, hardly ever, but I buy through ebay, and use paypal.
or I buy through this site, and use paypal.
If I were a shop, I'd be charged a fee per transaction for every credit card payment, it's a cost of trading.
Now, I don't like it, but the alternative is-
Buy nothing- large format gear is largely non-existent here-
or, buy through online stores where the fees are built into the sale price-
imagine going to Badger, or BHP, or Robert Hughes, and having them ask you for +3% for the privilege of buying from them?
or asking you to expose yourself to the chance of zero recourse in the event of a problem, by declaring the payment as a "Gift'?
I think that ebay is more good than bad, though you wouldn't know that by reading the majority of posts here-
fleabay, *bay, whatever- always disparaging, though everyone uses it-
or, if they don't, already has everything they want, or, lives in a town with a Large Format Shop.
I don't have that here, so my options are limited-
and if ebay and paypal didn't exist, then I'd be paying whatever the shops asked for, rather than having the market set a fair price, through the mechanism of an auction.
I sympathize with the OP, I have a Super Ikonta, and wouldn't like it to go missing-
but something like that is in the range where it should be insured, and insured for its full value, not necessarily the final bid price on ebay-
I might need to sell something soon-
if I sell it in the EU, IBAN is an option-
but if it goes further than that, then paypal is a convenient method, with a significant cost that must be built into the price-
it's a service for sellers, and the buyer pays in the end...
Unless you're very careful with your credit card, you often end up paying two fees anyway-
hey CP,
i agree with what you have said above. but the nice thing about a merchant credit card is that it is a bit more difficult for the buyer to make a claim...difficult may be the wrong word here.....with paypal it is basically a one click operation. so the buyer is emotionally upset and moves in that moment, quickly, before they have time to calm down and hear from the seller. maybe the seller could work it out no problem.
so i think the speed at which it can happen creates a bit of a problem. when you make a claim on your credit card they have to call them and explain. sometimes just explaining it out loud is enough to realize how silly the buyer may be acting. also many credit cards want a written statement as to the problem. again giving the buyer another opportunity to calm down and realize that what they were thinking.
the buyer can usually get his money back one way or another. i do not agree how e bay and paypal do not listen to both side fairly. they seem to make rash decisions.
i have no problem taking a return. why not? even if they cheat me out of the shipping. hell, i even got cheated outright....and you know what....that person is an active member here! so it is ind of funny that with all the talk about e bay and paypal and it was a member here. i got over it. burns me up a bit, i hate to loose, but in the end of the day not all that big of a deal. i try and do the best i can, what else can we do?
eddie
Vlad Soare
16-Dec-2010, 00:10
I think eBay and PayPal have a bad reputation among forum members here because we only hear about problems. Nobody starts a thread to say "Wow, I've used eBay and I'm happy about it", or "I've been payed via PayPal and had no problem". It's certainly frustrating to lose money because of a dishonest seller/buyer, or because of a glitch in the system, but I think we should realize that for every person who has a problem there are probably thousands of people who have none. Which is probably why the system keeps going well despite the contempt it's treated with on some forums.
You know, its still possible to walk into a shop and purchase things directly from human beings.
Joe, if you're able to just take a walk, go into a shop, and buy a LF camera or film holder, or any other LF accessory, or even a box of 8x10 Tri-X for that matter, then you're one lucky guy. I'm not that lucky, and nor are thousands of other photographers who don't happen to live in the US (or, for that matter, who happen to live in the US, but not close enough to a big city).
I don't know, but I guess I don't mind a walk down to the WU office when I am out of the country [or the post office when I am in the US], a stop for a cup of coffee, and a little flirting with a salesgirl [and more if I am lucky] when I execute these little transactions.
I would love to do that, too. But for me it's not a walk. It's a one hour's drive back and forth through crazy traffic, during the opening hours of the WU office (which coincide with my own working hours, so I have to leave the office, which is not always possible, let alone convenient). And once I get there, it's not a matter of flirting with a nice salesgirl. It's a matter of staying in line and waiting for my turn, and then dealing with a disagreeable, indifferent and sometimes rude bank employee.
And then there's the cost, too. When I wanted to send 40 dollars I had to pay 53. The WU commission was a third of the actual value of the item! That's because their commissions were not percents of the transferred amount, but fixed rates based on certain thresholds, and 13 dollars happened to be their lowest fixed rate at that time. I found that to be preposterously expensive for a service that offered absolutely no guarantee, no protection, no nothing.
It's easy to say that eBay and PayPal are overrated when you have photo stores full of LF gear around you, a Western Union office within walking range from your home/office, and you can afford to walk, have a coffee, and flirt with salesgirls, instead of being confined to an office all day long. But for those of us who are not as lucky as you are, PayPal is a blessing. And so is eBay, sometimes.
Vlad Soare
16-Dec-2010, 01:55
For example, Fotoimpex-
Adox just dumped 5 boxes of expired [over one-year old and apparently discontinued] 8x10 ortho film on me simply because they knew I was in China and they are in Berlin.
Fotoimpex is a reputable dealer. I refuse to believe that they did it "simply because they knew you were in China". You seem to think that they have deliberately screwed you, which is something I really, REALLY, doubt.
I'm sure it was just an inadvertent mistake, and I'm sure they'll solve the problem to your satisfaction if you give them a chance to.
It looks as though that the missed point here is in the OP's story. The buyer wanted super-fast overseas delivery, but only wanted to pay for the slow boat to China. The buyer then refused to wait the specified time before invoking the "I didn't get my new toy" rule with PP, allowing him to get the item FREE.
I had quit using PP some time back, and only offered to pay or recieve payment with USPS money orders(or cash). Many vendors on fleecebay were happy to accept, while some responded that they HAD to accept PP only(something to do with contracts and E), so I just didn't do business with them. Recently, I relented and started using PP once again, for my buyers convenience(not mine)as I am trying to sell off a lifetime's collection of darkroom gear. As a seller, I fear PP's rules favoring the buyer, and how it allows deceitful persons to rob honest folks.
There, I've just tossed my two pennies in.
Michael Graves
16-Dec-2010, 06:30
I think eBay and PayPal have a bad reputation among forum members here because we only hear about problems. Nobody starts a thread to say "Wow, I've used eBay and I'm happy about it", or "I've been payed via PayPal and had no problem".
Hear, hear! As another poster so eloquently put it, it isn't the payment method that is dishonest...it is the user (buyer or seller) who uses the rules in their favor to cheat another person. Vlad here is a perfect example of that. A lens he sold me took nearly eight weeks to arrive, through no fault of his. I (like the original poster in this thread) chose not to purchase expedited shipping. Vlad stuck with me the whole way and made sure things worked out for me. Either one of us could have turned that into a messy situation. Neither did and I now have a beautiful lens and he has payment.
Electronic payment is what makes electronic commerce work. Personally, I think that if you aren't willing to accept electronic payments, such as PayPal offers, you should not be selling over the Internet. There is a cost for every convenience. Not accepting electronic payment is telling the customer that you want free advertising and a captive audience, but you want that audience to pick up the slack by making them drive down to the post office to pick up a money order just so you won't be inconvenience. Personally, I think most people who claim they don't use PayPal because of all the horror stories really just don't want to pay the fee.
You should also follow the rules of the electronic payment service provider. In PayPal's Agreement paragraph 4.5 states, "No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions." and line 8.1a states, "For Purchase Payments, including Micropayments for Digital Goods, the recipient of the payment will always pay the fee." So don't offer a price "plus paypal fees". Figure that into the price of your item, or as many do figure a shipping/handling price that includes it.
Vlad Soare
16-Dec-2010, 08:15
Thanks for the kind words, Michael. I'm so glad you're happy with the lens.
There's a slight risk involved in any transaction, be it electronic or not. I can understand why avoiding electronic payments and/or international sales might give one a sense of security, though whether that security is real or just psychological is debatable.
Anyway, I have nothing against people refusing to use PayPal themselves, or refusing to ship internationally themselves. It's their choice. But it saddens me a little when they encourage others to do the same, in the name of security.
[QUOTE=jb7;661098]Am I missing something here?
"ok, I don't sell anything, hardly ever, but I buy through ebay, and use paypal.
or I buy through this site, and use paypal."
Yes. My basic point is do not use Pay Pay or Ebay at all. And if you use this forum instead of Ebay [where they beat you over the head to use Pay Pal], it is not hard to pay with classical methods for classical materials because the guys on this forum are generally guys with class!
Ok JMB, what's the alternative?
Given that I've found something that I want here, that is isn't listed on ebay,
and that a US member is willing to ship to me in Ireland,
and given that an instantaneous transfer is often appreciated, and usually a necessity...
Genuine question, is there a cheap, reliable method to transfer funds trans-Atlantic ?
While it would be nice to think that everything I want is available here, it's not always the case-
and even if I do find something, me and my kind are often excluded from transactions anyway-
Often, the classy guys only sell to each other-
Richard Rankin
17-Dec-2010, 15:54
Ok JMB, what's the alternative?
Given that I've found something that I want here, that is isn't listed on ebay,
and that a US member is willing to ship to me in Ireland,
and given that an instantaneous transfer is often appreciated, and usually a necessity...
Genuine question, is there a cheap, reliable method to transfer funds trans-Atlantic ?
While it would be nice to think that everything I want is available here, it's not always the case-
and even if I do find something, me and my kind are often excluded from transactions anyway-
Often, the classy guys only sell to each other-
In the past, I've used Xe.com which is a Canadian based currency trading company. I was able to have money zapped from my account and a cheque mailed to the seller in the UK. When I did it, there were no fees - they make their money by using an exchange rate calculated using bid/sell currency prices. Haven't used it lately but they are large, reliable, and I can transfer money internationally very fast through them.
I was able to have money zapped from my account and a cheque mailed to the seller in the UK.
I looked at the site, looks too complicated (or rather, too opaque) for me, and a mailed cheque might be a little bit quaint for some-
There doesn't seem to be a direct route to funds transfer, without engaging in the money markets- I could be wrong, but I doubt it's for me-
Though for a major transaction, it might be worth some investigation-
Thank you-
j
I'm not sure that some people understand the costs of PayPal.
Buyers cop a very bad conversion from $ to $US.
Sellers also cop a fee.
So please, once-and-for-all ... it is not something that disadvantages buyers only!!
There has to be a cost of some kind to provide the service ! Do you expect that it might be free !?!?!
Bring on the worldwide money-changer that intentionally operates as a non-profit organisation.
The costs are significant- and I'm not happy with them, but tolerate them, although it's particularly galling for larger amounts.
In fact, in order to circumvent them,
the next time I sell a camera, I'll pay for the buyer's flight from the US*-
It'll save on shipping as well, and we might be able to squeeze in a day's shooting in Wicklow...
(I'm serious, expensive camera...)
*terms and conditions apply, does not include taxes, transfers, accommodation, travel to and from airport; amount based on lowest air fare NYC-DUB from previous five year period, payment to take the form of a discount on the purchase of a large format camera and accessories)
ImSoNegative
17-Dec-2010, 21:11
i bought some 4x5 holders from a fellow here on the forum, i paid through paypal and he mailed the holders and i recieved them promptly, after a few days he sent me an email asking me why i froze the payment, i told him that i didnt, i called my bank and they told me that paypal had not even tried to access my account, paypal said they would investigate the incident (an incident that really didnt even exist) the gentleman i bought the holders from and I kept in contact over the next couple of weeks, after about 3 weeks paypal released the funds. i was leary after that about using paypal.
kev curry
18-Dec-2010, 06:58
Paypals great until you have a problem.... after an £8000 yes £8000.00 (Sterling not USD) fraud on my account and that mobs unbelievably bad handling of the whole affair I'm out...period! Paypal is the stuff of nightmares for many!
bobwysiwyg
18-Dec-2010, 07:04
Kev,
Wow, scary! Might I ask how this occurred? Was it an account backed by bank account connection, or a credit card? I have a PayPal account, but am pretty paranoid about it and any other such things. I never use the "remember me" feature and never let my OS, or browser store my P/W's. I sure hope you came out of this OK in the end. :confused:
Brian Ellis
18-Dec-2010, 07:17
i bought some 4x5 holders from a fellow here on the forum, i paid through paypal and he mailed the holders and i recieved them promptly, after a few days he sent me an email asking me why i froze the payment, i told him that i didnt, i called my bank and they told me that paypal had not even tried to access my account, paypal said they would investigate the incident (an incident that really didnt even exist) the gentleman i bought the holders from and I kept in contact over the next couple of weeks, after about 3 weeks paypal released the funds. i was leary after that about using paypal.
This is the same thing I encountered for the first time about a year ago with Pay Pal. I posted a message about it here. About a year ago Pay Pal instituted a policy of freezing payments to sellers who don't have at least 100 ebay transactions or who don't meet a couple other exceptions. The freeze is for 21 days unless the buyer posts positive feedback sooner or unless tracking numbers or something else, I forget the details, can be furnished to Pay Pal proving that the item was shipped. It's a very aggravating policy for people who don't sell very often on ebay but I'm sure ebay/Pay Pal make a nice chunk of money by investing other people's money for 21 days.
kev curry
18-Dec-2010, 07:57
Bob,
My accounts were hacked, both paypal and ebay accounts....the hackers changed my home address to an address in Oldham London -I'm in Scotland- then married all my details with a stolen credit card before going on a buying fest.
The revelation for me was that paypal didnt want to know. They were a nightmare!
I couldn't even speak to anyone at paypal about this...there was no contact number to be found at the time. This may have changed now?
I had to spend hours and I mean many hours communicating via a dialog box with a live operator....it was nuts. No one would actually speak to me!
Paypal were so incompetent that they eventually paid all the money defrauded from the poor b*****ds CC into my bank account!
I had to alert them to their mistake...It then took them weeks to act before they went into my bank account and clawed back the money bit by bit. They then made a balls up with their figures and tried to claim me for more cash than they were due! I was then treated like a criminal for refusing to cough up the cash!! That alone was a total fiasco!
Many many months later and after a whole pile of shit and inconvenience the whole affair was resolved...but only through a hell of a lot of persistence on my part.
The moral of the tale is dont be lulled into a false sense of security when doing business on the net or when dealing with paypal in particular.
The other moral of the tail is this...if you must link your bank account with paypal set up a current account solely for that purpose and transfer cash to it as and when you need it...that gives you insurance against your money potentially migrating into paypals or some other devious assholes pockets.
This happens believe it. Dont forget that paypal have almost total control of your bank account to boot...read the small print! If they make a balls up, they can, without notice plunder your bank account at anytime!
Thankfully I had long ago taken my own advice and set up an ebay/paypal specific bank account and only transferred cash to that account as and when needed. Otherwise paypal would have ripped me off for cash that wasn't theres...that would have been a gas...me trying to claw my cash back out of that mob!
Happy Paypalling!
bobwysiwyg
18-Dec-2010, 08:18
Kev, Wow again, what a nightmare. Glad it finally worked out.
kev curry
18-Dec-2010, 08:29
Cheers Bob.
Saying all that....95% of my LF gear came from ebay without a single issue, an amazing resource with lots of sincere folks doing business...great for a budding LF'er starting out. Its just a pity the whole organization leaves a lot of people cold and pissed!
Glad I'm out...its better to do business (without paypal) with people here anyway.
bobwysiwyg
18-Dec-2010, 09:33
I've been a long time PayPal user. That's how I got back into film photography and LF to boot. I started getting nags about reaching some limit without verifying my bank account, which I took to mean connecting my bank account to PayPal. I had no intention of doing that, but realized one way around it was to apply for 'their' credit card. Since I have only ever carried one credit card and never carry a balance, I figured one more card would be OK. At least here in the U.S. if fraudulently used and I notify the issuer within 48 hrs., I'm liable for nothing. After 48 hrs., my liability is limited to $50. Thought it a reasonable compromise. So far, all my transactions via PayPal, spanning a number of years, has been very good [fingers crossed]. ;)
"Ok JMB, what's the alternative?
Given that I've found something that I want here, that is isn't listed on ebay,
and that a US member is willing to ship to me in Ireland,
and given that an instantaneous transfer is often appreciated, and usually a necessity...Genuine question, is there a cheap, reliable method to transfer funds trans-Atlantic ?
While it would be nice to think that everything I want is available here, it's not always the case- and even if I do find something, me and my kind are often excluded from transactions anyway-Often, the classy guys only sell to each other-" JB7
1. I am currently in China. I have been paying for my purchases on the forum from USA sellers by Western Union.
2. I think that I am paying a flate rate of 15 USD for the wires. The seller picks up the money in cash.
3. Part of the idea is to actually abondon Ebay altogether and "join the club" so to speak [no one is born a member]. Proceeding in this fashion eliminates many problems, e.g. I [always a buyer] simply do not worry that the seller will not perform. No doubt there are tales to be told among members, too; but by and large its a good class of sellers and buyers.
4. My objection to Pay Pal and Ebay is not the price of Pay Pal fees. Ebay is obnoxious about forcing people to use Pay Pal; Pay Pal is obnoxious when you use them and when you try not to use them [i.e. close the account], and at least in my case, hackers constantly tried to access my Pay Pal account. The cheapest ostensive price is not always the best deal.
5. Ebay is no fun any more [for a variety of reasons], and the classical ways are in the long run simpler.
Vlad Soare
27-Dec-2010, 05:53
I'm not sure how this linking one's bank account to PayPal works, and how come they're allowed to help themselves with any amount of money from one's bank account every time they feel like it. This sounds very strange to me. :confused:
I have just one card defined with PayPal. It's not a credit card, but a debit card, meaning that I cannot spend anything more than the amount that's already in the corresponding account. The account is always empty. Whenever I want to buy something off the internet, I use my bank's internet banking website (which works in real time, day and night) to transfer money from my main account into this one, and I always transfer just enough to cover the current transaction.
If PayPal (or anyone else, for that matter) try to take more money than I allow them to, well, tough luck. All they'll get will be an error message. :D
kev curry
27-Dec-2010, 07:05
Whats strange about it? They have your debit card details! They've got the keys!
Thats a direct link to your bank account. You do the right thing by keeping you account empty...way to go. You wont be taken for a ride anytime soon if you keep it that way. Not everyone takes these measures and not everyone is aware of the control that paypal has over their accounts!
If paypal think you owe them money even in the case of an error on their part they take it out of your account without notice...thats the reality of it!
tom thomas
27-Dec-2010, 15:50
While in France this past November, my wife and I "bought with the Buy-it-Now option" a serving dish on E-Bay and wound up being "limited" by Paypal until we returned to the US in December. Their security program determined that my IP address wasn't in the US and shut me down thinking I was a hacker. It was during the time that Wikileaks supporters where issuing denial of service attacks against Pay-Pal and others.
Luckily the E-Bay seller was nice about it. She allowed me to wait until we returned home and until I was able to get my account reset/restored so I could pay for the dish. The dish is beautiful.
When I emailed Paypay for help from France, and complained, this is the answer I got. Basically, hire a lawyer and sue us if you don't like it. Humm!
In retrospect, I'm glad Paypal was alert to my unusual IP address and limiting my account until I verified my info (which I couldn't as it involved clicking on an email they sent which prompted a phone call to my registered home phone number). Since I couldn't answer my US home phone, I was stuck.
Next time I travel to Europe, I will notify Paypay in advance and provide them with my European address and phone number. Should make life easier.
---------------------------------
When we limited your account, we looked at different factors including:
- Information we collect internally and sometimes from other users.
- PayPal's tools, processes, and information that monitor our
payment network are confidential and proprietary.
To help you understand our limitation process, there are a few things
you should know:
- When you signed up for our services, you agreed to our User
Agreement, Privacy, Acceptable Use Policies, and others.
- The decision to place a limitation on your account was based on
terms outlined in these agreements.
- Generally, we place limitations on an account to learn more about
you, your account activity or your transactions. To appeal an account
limitation, we might ask you to take various steps, provide us with
information, or supply us with certain documents.
- In some cases, we may decide that we can no longer offer our
services to you.
If you would like to obtain copies of the information we reviewed in
deciding to place a limitation on your account, you will need to obtain
a court order or subpoena. To do so, you may want to consider speaking
with an attorney who should be able to explain the subpoena process to
you. If you choose to subpoena the information, you'll need to submit it
to us using National Registered Agents, Inc.
Thanks,
PayPal Account Review Department
------------------------------
Tom Thomas
rguinter
27-Dec-2010, 16:25
...Next time I travel to Europe, I will notify Paypay in advance and provide them with my European address and phone number. Should make life easier...Tom Thomas
Do you really think this is a good idea?
Standard advice that I've heard from internet security mavens everywhere is to "never" send an internet alert to anyone when you are scheduled to be away from home.
Just my thoughts.
Bob G.
rguinter
27-Dec-2010, 16:34
Paypals great until you have a problem.... after an £8000 yes £8000.00 (Sterling not USD) fraud on my account and that mobs unbelievably bad handling of the whole affair I'm out...period! Paypal is the stuff of nightmares for many!
The reason I've avoided it like the plague since day 1.
Anyone who thinks paypal is a great thing is kidding themselves and risking the farm.
I'm hearing more and more stories just like this one all the time and I've been predicting it since the beginning.
Bob G.
Dirk Rösler
27-Dec-2010, 18:58
I am a heavy Paypal user as a seller and I can confirm that it is easy to get burned by Paypal as a seller. All they want to know is the tracking number, nothing else counts. I have to say that's somewhat reasonable because every idiot and their dog will come and argue over the item to them, but the risk is with the seller. My buyers have the option to choose non-trackable non-insured shipping with the options clearly explained. They pay very inexpensive shipping, but if something does not arrive then I am the one picking up the tab…
I think it only makes sense if you sell a lot to unknown/untrusted parties, so if one in 100 transactions go awry you have 99 that went well and hopefully they cover the lost one.
Good luck with your sales.
myoptic
27-Dec-2010, 20:16
I have an ancient bank account linked to Paypal. I have only 2 bills come out of it every month for a total of $120, the rest is Paypal. I Never have more than $150 in that account. I physically transfer funds into that account via bank machine deposit from my main account, which Paypal does not have access to and is at a different bank. Not meaning to be paranoid, but limiting potential financial damage just seems prudent. I have only ever had one problem with them, and it was resolved after 2 weeks.
goamules
28-Dec-2010, 09:11
I've used PayPal often and for over a decade without a problem.
However, what I hate is the incremental way Ebay and Paypal are requiring more and more connection between me and my money.
The other day I was posting a camera through Ebay's Turbo Lister. Had not sold on Ebay in about 2 months. Suddenly I got a warning through the Lister, "You can no longer list unless you link your Ebay account to PayPal for the listing/selling fees." This really torqued me because since 1998 I've always paid my seller's fees manually. I let them send me a few nasty grams and then I pay, (via Paypal as a "one time payment"). Now the only way I can continue selling is to link the accounts so that as soon as there is a fee, Ebay/PP can magically grab their reward. The whole system sucks of Metropolis or something, everything is "geared" to protect their profits. No protections for Seller's anymore.
I'm waiting on the day when Ebay will required you to maintain a balance in PP equal to the amount you have sold in, say, the past 6 months. So that any squirrelly buyer can instantly claim a problem and PP can refund them. Without even asking the seller a question. Watch....it will happen.
garrett,
you still have 10 days to pay your e bay charges before they automatically "take" it. they send an invoice saying please pay or in 10 day it will pay automatically.
goamules
29-Dec-2010, 18:54
Thanks, that's a tad better. But I still loath that they suddenly made me do this, after over a decade of being with them.
footoograaf
30-Dec-2010, 01:32
Paypal is not available in Serbia even though we have modern banking system and e-commerce laws, yet allow lawless Somalia in the system! I sincerely don't want to insult anyone but one can't help wandering about their standards!!!
Cesare Berti
31-Dec-2010, 12:09
Just an update.
After 6weeks and a day the camera arrived in Hong Kong the original Canada Post estimate was 4-6 weeks. Once the Can Post web site, via the tracking number, said the package had arrived I called the PayPal resolution center to reopen the claim as the camera arrived at its destination. They said no, the buyer had to physically pick the package up before the claim could be reviewed. After contacting the buyer and PayPal a number of times my account is now finally restored and I got paid for the camera.
My Ebay feedback rating is another matter, apparently you can't get it reviewed after 30 days, mistaken or not, of course the shipping time was 43 days. Frankly I don't think I care.
I greatly appreciated the personal imput of a number of forum members and followed with great interest the comments on this thread. Hopefully I'm a little wiser.
Wishing all prosperous and satisfying 2011.
lilmsmaggie
2-Jan-2011, 17:37
I've used PayPal often and for over a decade without a problem. However, what I hate is the incremental way Ebay and Paypal are requiring more and more connection between me and my money.
I agree. I've had two incidents with PayPal in the past 12 mos., the most recent just 15 days ago, which has forever colored my buying habits involving PayPal whether it be on eBay or anywhere else for that matter. IMHO, PayPal has become inflexible in the extreme. It doesn't seem to matter to PayPal HOW YOU WANT TO PAY for a purchase-- they will invariable insist that it be linked to a SPECIFIC ACCOUNT! at least that has been my experience with this most recent transaction. I won't go into details but needless to say, I'm finished with the PayPal way of doing business.
This annoyance with PayPal revolves around their inability to cancel a transaction, even though they will tell you, that it TAKES THEM 3 BUSINESS DAYS TO COMPLETE ANY TRANSACTION whether you're buying or selling. You also cannot (at least I couldn't) remove a backup funding source, even though that funding source is no longer viable. And although I replaced this source with one that was viable and current, it took me a year to get PayPal to remove the non-viable funding source in question from my account.
Essentially, PayPal refused to allow me ANY option of making a purchase. And to make matters worse, THEY paid for an item WITHOUT MY AUTHORIZATION and without telling me BEFORE doing so! My only option was/is to force PayPal to complete the transaction the way it should have occurred in the first place.
Bottomline: If a Seller or service requires payment with PayPal and PayPal requires the buyer to have a PayPal account to complete the transaction, I'll just have to do without or find that product or service elsewhere.
Rick Clark
2-Jan-2011, 19:32
The reason I've avoided it like the plague since day 1.
Anyone who thinks paypal is a great thing is kidding themselves and risking the farm.
I'm hearing more and more stories just like this one all the time and I've been predicting it since the beginning.
Bob G.
If they will take a cashiers check I will buy it of the net, but I will never use paypal I don't need something that bad to have them in my life. Just my $.02 worth.
i have been using paypal to buy and sell things since the 1990s
and never had a problem. i also have a card reader
but the rates are higher than p-pal unless i have the card and swipe it ...
walter23
3-Jan-2011, 02:24
It doesn't seem to matter to PayPal HOW YOU WANT TO PAY for a purchase-- they will invariable insist that it be linked to a SPECIFIC ACCOUNT!
It seems they have all kinds of algorithms to combat fraud, but none of them can be explained in the user agreement, so you end up with all these weird seemingly-arbitrary restrictions imposed on your activity. Pisses me off too. I wish they'd just say "You can only use credit card if you're away from home and buying a TV from a seller in Timbuktu, and you can only use your paypal balance if you're buying a camera from ebay and you've had two password failures in the last three days, and you can't use paypal at all if we don't like your political affiliation".
Scotty230358
3-Jan-2011, 07:22
IMO, Paypal give people a major false sense of security. The experiences in this thread sort of support my feelings. Sorry this happened. The disappointment runs far deeper than just the monetary loss.
My experiences have been much better. I liquidated all of my LF gear on this forum to members of the forum. I accepted personal checks and sent the goods before the checks even arrived. Never an issue. Made me feel good to be dealing with fine folks.
Some of my best LF purchases have been from members of this forum. All of my disappointing purchases have been from Ebay.
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