Incident light exposure

[kodioneill]

Can anyone tell me the accepted method for determining proper exposure (with hand held light meter) shooting into the light? For example sunrise, sunset.

[ic-racer]

Trial and error.

[Ari]

I will point the meter into the light, and depending on the effect sought, I will over- or under-expose by about 1.5 stops, and bracket like hell.
Not sure if that's the accepted method, but I've used it successfully.
Also, you can use a DSLR to gauge what the light is doing if you need a visual preview.

[Mark Barendt]

There is not a standard, you have to define what you want from the shot first.

For example pointing the dome toward the lens will allow you to take a well exposed shot of a person's face with the sunset behind them. The sunset itself will go very bright.

Holding the dome at a 90 to the lens will get you some detail in the face and some in the sunset.

Pointing the dome at the sunset will get you a dark silhouette of the person and probably provide great detail in the sunset.

If you want great detail in both the face and the sunset you will need artificial light on the person, reflected or strobe or ...

[vinny]

You need a spot meter. An incident meter with a dome won't give you accurate readings in this situation.

[rguinter]

You need a spot meter. An incident meter with a dome won't give you accurate readings in this situation.

I agree with Vinny. Can't be done with anything other than a spot meter.

Or as others mentioned, pure trial and error until experienced.

I have done hundreds of sunset/sunrise photos for many years and my method is to measure the sky eV value about 6 sun-diameters adjacent to the sun. That reading (if used for a base exposure) will give a good value for sky colors. Then I bracket in the direction toward greater exposure.

You can also try using a graduated neutral density filter to darken the sky a bit and open up a couple of stops to get better foreground detail.

My best photos tend to come well after the sunset however when the sky-light intensity has dropped off. I especially like shooting when the sky is eV 6 as this tends to be the point where sky-light and city lights balance in intensity.

Cheers.

Bob G.

[Mark Barendt]

I agree with Vinny. Can't be done with anything other than a spot meter.

Really, dang I've been breaking the laws of physics again and regularly for years. :eek:

Probably wont work anymore now that you told me. :mad:

:p

[vinny]

He's not inquiring about shooting faces. That's what a incident meter with a dome "shaped like a human face" is for. And just cuz it works for you doesn't mean it's the most accurate method. A lot of folks use incident meters because they don't know how to use a spot meter. Using the right tool for the job will produce more consistent results.


Really, dang I've been breaking the laws of physics again and regularly for years. :eek:

Probably wont work anymore now that you told me. :mad:

:p

[Mark Barendt]

And just cuz it works for you doesn't mean it's the most accurate method. A lot of folks use incident meters because they don't know how to use a spot meter.

A lot of people use incident meters because they are so accurate.


Using the right tool for the job will produce more consistent results.

Any meter needs interpretation and a dose of experience.

[Sirius Glass]

A reflectance meter can be used if a spot meter is not available but the reflectance meter will over compensate. Therefore open the lens one or two stops from the reflectance meter measurement.

Steve

[kodioneill]

Thanks everyone I appreciate the input. If I was photographing a sunrise and set a gray card say parallel to the lens axis below the camera (Maybe on the ground) and took a reading with the reflectance grid on the meter would that work? I intend to buy a spot meter soon. I have a DSLR and will use it meanwhile but I would like to try other options just to learn. (Keep in mind I'm using a Sekonic Studio Deluxe meter).

[Mark Barendt]

Thanks everyone I appreciate the input. If I was photographing a sunrise and set a gray card say parallel to the lens axis below the camera (Maybe on the ground) and took a reading with the reflectance grid on the meter would that work? I intend to buy a spot meter soon. I have a DSLR and will use it meanwhile but I would like to try other options just to learn. (Keep in mind I'm using a Sekonic Studio Deluxe meter).

What is the main subject?

Where do you want detail?

You haven't given us enough info.

[kodioneill]

Main Subject, landscape
sun shinning am towards lens
detail in the shadows ever so slightly.

Main point of the question is will this get me a exposure reading close enough to test that procedure. (gray card reflected reading )

[kodioneill]

Like this shot I took at a golf course many years ago. I cannot recall the method I used.

[Keith Tapscott.]

Can anyone tell me the accepted method for determining proper exposure (with hand held light meter) shooting into the light? For example sunrise, sunset.
This Kodak publication explains how to use a hand meter, including adjustments for high-key and low-key subjects.
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/af9/index.shtml

[Mark Barendt]

Main Subject, landscape
sun shinning am towards lens
detail in the shadows ever so slightly.

Main point of the question is will this get me a exposure reading close enough to test that procedure. (gray card reflected reading )

There are two ways to do this with an incident meter:

1- Aim the dome straight at the horizon, this will probably get you a camera setting that is close/workable for what you describe.

(To add more detail in the foreground simply turn the dome left or right or down some. Like adding salt this is a matter of applying experience or experimentation. To reduce detail, tip the dome up a bit.)

2- Point the dome squarely at the camera and take a reading, stop down about 2-stops (reduce exposure) and shoot.

What is happening here in #2 is that you are measuring a reference point, the shadows, then using zone system principles to place the "shadow with detail zone" two stops below middle gray.

Your film choices will have a huge effect here and you will need to adjust accordingly.

Velvia will give you much different results than Portra. TXP in Xtol will give different results than FP4 in Rodinal.

#2 is similar in it's practical use to how a spot meter is used to find a reading when "exposing for the shadows" and will give similar results.

No metering system is perfect, but experience allows you to use any meter quite accurately.

[Steve M Hostetter]

standard practice is to aim the light gathering dome tward the camera from subjects position.

[John Koehrer]

standard practice is to aim the light gathering dome tward the camera from subjects position.

And then apply your "Kentucky Windage"
With either spot or incident meter, there's going to be a learning curve. Both will do the job once you figure it out.
IMO incidents easier.

[Steve M Hostetter]

And then apply your "Kentucky Windage"
With either spot or incident meter, there's going to be a learning curve. Both will do the job once you figure it out.
IMO incidents easier.

works for me that's all that counts

what constructive advice would you offer other then the obvious

[John Koehrer]

Constructive advice?
1)Don't send infantile pm's
2)learn that pointing the dome at the camera is NOT the only way to use an incident light meter.
3)change your diaper :~(

[rguinter]

Really, dang I've been breaking the laws of physics again and regularly for years. :eek:

Probably wont work anymore now that you told me. :mad:

:p

Just be careful when attempting to break some laws of physics... like when two objects try to occupy the same space at the same time... I see this frequently.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

Like this shot I took at a golf course many years ago. I cannot recall the method I used.

The method I gave you in my post number 6 would have underexposed this subject. But since I bracket toward greater exposure when shooting into the sun I would have acquired this exposure on my second bracket (i.e., third exposure)... which is what I almost always do with sunset/sunrise photos.

Your foreground is important to you as I can see by your example. So you will need a spot meter to measure the eV value of that portion of the foreground you want perfectly exposed. Or take several measurements from brightest to darkest (again with a spot meter) and use a zone-type system.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

standard practice is to aim the light gathering dome tward the camera from subjects position.

I have no use for this type of meter because my photography is almost 100% landscapes. As vinny pointed out in an earlier post, the dome type of meter works well for portraits (or other subjects) where you can walk over and measure incident light immediately adjacent to the subject.

My sense (based on the laws of physics... and how fast I can walk) is that this is impossible with landscapes where much of the subject matter is at infinity. And any method used with a dome-meter will be less accurate than a spot meter that can correctly measure eV values at infinity.

Bob G.

[Vaughn]

I have not used an incident meter for the landscape, only portraits. But any reflective meter will work fine, if one can get close enough to meter selectively -- which is why a spot is so handy.

Other than that, "Expose for the shadow detail and develop for the highlights (or in the case of sunsets and sunrises in color, one can expose for the shadow detail (or other important feature in the image), and use a graduated neutral density filter to control the highlights.

[Steve M Hostetter]

If I were to shoot a vista and wanted to record the subtle colors of a sunset I would spot meter
If I were to take a portrait of a tree I might use an incident meter

Just depends on the scene and I do realize we all have different methods I believe the original question was on how does one use an incident meter I could be wrong

[jeroldharter]

I think it is what you are used to. Either incident or spot could work well. I was skeptical of using an incident meter for all of the reasons mentioned. After reading the Phil Davis BTZS materials about incident metering I decided to give it a try. Much easier, quicker, and more foolproof. It is easy to make measuring errors with a spot meter and flare can be an uncontrolled variable with the spot. Try both and see which is most intuitive for you. I feel liberated with a little Gossen Digisix meter instead of my big Sekonic spot meter. If you are interested in the incident method, read the BTZS book.

[Mark Barendt]

My sense (based on the laws of physics... and how fast I can walk) is that this is impossible with landscapes where much of the subject matter is at infinity. And any method used with a dome-meter will be less accurate than a spot meter that can correctly measure eV values at infinity.

Bob G.

All any meter can ever do is provide "reference points".

If you know the brightness where you are; in this case standing outside pointing the camera at a sunrise with the dome of the meter pointed at the camera you can find a reference value instantly.

Doesn't matter about being at infinity.

All we need is a good idea of the difference between that reference point and the scene you are shooting.

In this case the shadow point would be the measured point with the incident meter.

Adjust accordingly and you have a reasonable camera setting.

The only time the incident meter can't provide a good reference is when you are not somewhere in the same light, i.e. you are in a house shooting out into that sunrise.

I find it no stretch to walk outside and take a reading in most cases.

Spot meters are good tools, but they are no easier.

You pick a reference point, you measure it, you decide how that relates.

The two things that a spot meters can do that are different from incident meters is measure the SBR and alternate points in the scene.

If you are using expansion and contraction SBR is important.

If you are shooting trannies alternate points may be important.

In the end though all exposure settings are place and fall, no matter how many points you measure.

[John Berry]

A lot of people use incident meters because they are so accurate.



Any meter needs interpretation and a dose of experience.
Bingo