Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte FB Dry Down Experiences

[Fragomeni]

Hi all. I'm working with Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte and Glossy FB and I've begun to fall in love with the semi-matte. It's getting me close to what I see in my mind. I have just a quick question. What are your experiences with dry down with this particular paper? I will of course be testing my personal dry down (in the middle of it now) but I am curious to know what others have found for curiosity sake. Dry down still seems so controversial and individual, with some saying that it is hugely noticeable all the time to others who completely deny it exists and everyone in between, that it genuinely peaks my interest. Thanks for your stats! And lets try to keep this on track and avoid a runaway thread. Simply, what is your dry down percentage/ compensation for Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte Fiber Paper?

[PViapiano]

I've been printing with this paper lately and am finding quite a bit of drydown with it. I would hazard a guess at >10%.

Even when I bleach a print and it looks like it's popping quite well, I seem to get a much darker, veiled final print when dry.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't bother with percentage. I take the test strip and dry it briefly in a little toaster
oven to check the highlights. You could also use a hair dryer. The shadows will change more of course if you tone afterwards, but that is something easier to predict.
And yes, the drydown of this paper is a significant, but no worse than most.

[Mark Woods]

I find the dry down is huge. I struggle with this paper, although I do like it. The glossy paper I find very easy to work with. Drew, I really like the toaster!

[John Bowen]

I don't bother with percentage. I take the test strip and dry it briefly in a little toaster
oven to check the highlights. You could also use a hair dryer. The shadows will change more of course if you tone afterwards, but that is something easier to predict.
And yes, the drydown of this paper is a significant, but no worse than most.

So Drew, does the toaster warm the warm-tone paper? :eek:

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

I've followed Ansel's recommendation and used a microwave to check for dry down, but never a toaster.

[Oren Grad]

Here it's toaster and microwave in the kitchen, hair dryer in the darkroom. Not much hair left to dry, so I don't miss the dryer in its former location.

[Fragomeni]

Just finished printing the prints for my dry down test and I'm just waiting for them to finish washing. After that I'll dry them using a hair dryer and compare for the results. Ideally, I'd like to let them dry naturally but a hair dryer shouldn't change the tonality or anything (as long as it isnt held too close). Microwaves actually change the tonality of the paper due to the heat. I don't have a microwave anyway so thats not an issue. Haha, I did a dry down test a little while back and realized in the middle of the test that there was no microwave in the new house so I put it in the oven...bad idea. I almost set the house on fire! Precisely why I dont cook! Anyway, because I know that this paper tends to have a significant dry down (by most accounts that I've heard around 10%) Im testing for 9%, 10%, 11% and 12% dry down. The prints should be done washing in a few min and I'll head back into the darkroom to finish the test. I'll post my results in a little bit.

Also, anyone out there have some actual numbers? I'd like to compare.

[Fragomeni]

K, my dry down is turning out to be lower then I estimated it would be. I'm running another round of tests for 4%, 6%, 7%, and 8%. I'll update after I have results.

[Oren Grad]

Also, anyone out there have some actual numbers? I'd like to compare.

I don't think a standard percentage adjustment works well. Different pictures want different adjustments.

As far as my actual work processes in the darkroom are concerned, I don't even think of it in terms of an adjustment to the exposure/contrast that looks best for wet prints. For each picture I just look at the dry test prints and decide how to proceed based on that.

[Fragomeni]

I don't think a standard percentage adjustment works well. Different pictures want different adjustments.

I've experienced quite the opposite. I guess thats why I'm so obsessive about thesting everything. I've found that paper and a specific climate, developer, enlarger, light, filters, other chemistry, and personal workflow, when consistent will yield very consistent results each and every time. My workflow is pretty much robotic in my darkroom and I always use the same materials and chemistry which I've tested (and re-tested) thoroughly. Consequently, my results are repeatable to a high level of consistency and accuracy which is what I look for. As to paper, I've found that testing the paper every year or so will yield solidly repeatable results (as long as the rest of the workflow is equally consistent).

Now back to the darkroom to finish round 2 of the paper test.

[Fragomeni]

Correction: I haven't realistically tested paper on a year by year basis. Its a methodology that I've been taught that matches my other testing practices so I assume that it will match up to my other repeatable results. Only time will tell.

[hmf]

So, I'm curious about the methodology of a dry down test. Does one compare a wet print to a dried sample with X% more/less exposure to see if they look the same, or actually use a reflectance densitometer?

For those who notice a large dry down effect, are you giving yourself time to light adapt (7 minutes to completion) before judging the values of your wet prints?

I use Ilford Warmtone glossy, which admittedly may be a very different beast, but I am generally very content with the appearance of my dried prints - but I do give myself lots of time in the light to judge the tones of my prints as I approach a 'final' version.

[Oren Grad]

My observation wasn't intended as rejecting the value of well-controlled, consistent processes. I've just found that a fixed percentage change in exposure doesn't do justice to different pictures. That's not surprising from a sensitometric perspective, given how "curvy" film and paper curves actually are, and how subjective the judgment of optimal tonal values for a given picture content is.

As always, YMMV. In the end, what matters is what procedures work for you.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes, I have left the test strip in the toaster a few seconds too many, and it does
dramatically increase the dry-down. In fact, the D-max is spectacular, once the
smoke clears! I'll be working with some of this paper the day after tomorrow, so
might try to surmise a percent factor, though I don't like the idea in general, since
I aim for an overall look. From past experience, 10% might be a guess, but only
a guess, because this also depends on the color of exposing light, which affects
highlights versus shadows differently, the developer, all kinds of things. It's partially
subjective, especially if you get mixed up with things like glycin stain, multiple toners, etc, which this paper seems responsive to. And to tell the truth, I usually
make several prints which have just a bit of difference in exposure, because when
they are truly dry after toning, washing, sitting on the rack a couple of day, what
seems the best in the darkroom might not be my favorite in the final result, dried test-strip or otherwise.

[Fragomeni]

My observation wasn't intended as rejecting the value of well-controlled, consistent processes.

Oh, I didn't think you were rejecting anything. I was just offering my $0.02 in return.


As always, YMMV. In the end, what matters is what procedures work for you.

Exactly!


what
seems the best in the darkroom might not be my favorite in the final result, dried test-strip or otherwise.

So true!

Well now I'm waiting on the last of the tests to wash...ugh. I so much prefer to just make prints! Not test! But it gets the better of me ;)

[Fragomeni]

Well, I managed to fudge the test. I think I got a little too impatient or the developer is becoming exhausted. I got down to testing 1%-3% which feels too low from the experiences of most people I've spoken to and now I noticed that my blacks on the recent test print dont match the blacks on the wet print im comparing them to. UGH. I'll keep messing around with this tomorrow and hopefully I can find some useful constant.

[PViapiano]

especially if you get mixed up with things like glycin stain, multiple toners, etc, which this paper seems responsive to.

Glycin stain...oh no, not something else to worry about :eek:

I've never heard of it, and since I use Ansco 130 I am now feeling phantom pain in my left arm.

[Bruce Barlow]

Sorry, folks, but this is simple. Make the best print wet, and leave it in a tray of water. Make three more prints: one at -4%, another at -7%, and one at -10%. Dry them normally. Take the percentage off the base exposure only, unless, like me, your timer can do it for you automatically.

Then, compare the dry prints with the wet ones, find the dry one that matches the wet one, and learn that it's probably -10%. If it's in-between, a guess will be way close enough for photography. But maybe not. Ilford Galerie is -8%, for example. The old Zone VI Brilliant was -4.

If this is done during a normal printing session, the time involved is minimal. I have a box full of dry-down tests. I have not found it to vary by image, and since I'm going to let them dry normally, I wouldn't trust a toaster or microwave or any such device, cuz ya just never know.

[Drew Wiley]

Glycin ages, and as it does, eventually starts staining the highlights. Store sealed, unopened bottles of glycin in the freezer; and once you start using a bottle, use up all the powder within a few months, before its starts turning a deep brown. ... unless (and this is a neat characteristic about the stuff) ... unless you deliberately want to use the added staining effect of partially oxidized glycin as a creative tool. Just let a little powder age too much and test it, to get the idea.

[Drew Wiley]

Bruce - "close enough" doesn't do it for me; that's why I never bought into that Fred
Picker snake-oil nonsense that a treaked timer can solve the whole problem.

[bob carnie]

Whats all of your thoughts about steaming prints after dry?

[Drew Wiley]

Once you're in the ballpark, the point is to determine the highlight values by test
drying, because they will remain fairly (not perfectly) constant; then you can fine
tune the shadow values with blue or magenta light, longer development, or various
toning procedures, which are not in fact always predicatable when the print is wet!
When you go from glossy to semi-matte there is the additional factor of how much
white you want to perceive as optimum brightness, so you need a dry print under
actual representative viewing light. No big deal. I made a few small prints this morning on both glossy and semi-matte, but ran out of time, so have to tone and
dry them tommorow. But if I had to ballpark estimate the drydown (not factoring
in the effects of multiple toners), I'd still say it's around 10%.

[Fragomeni]

Ok, just wanted to share my results. Looks like I'm at about 6% dry down on Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte FB.

[bob carnie]

Hi Drew

I am making 30x40 fibres this weekend would I be able to use the local pizzarea for the toast down method??

thanks
Bob

[Drew Wiley]

Haven't tried the pizza oven method myself, Bob, but from time to time I have been
served a pizza crust which undoubtedly tasted worse than a burnt print!

[Fragomeni]

Ok, just wanted to share my results. Looks like I'm at about 6% dry down on Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte FB.

Noticed quite a difference in the dry down of Ilford Warmtone Semi-Matte FB compared to Glossy. While I was printing today I also ran a test to determine dry down for Glossy. I'll know the results tomorrow and I'll post then but it looks like between 9%-11% for Glossy which is a pretty significant difference. I didn't really expect that but the eyes don't lie. I'll confirm the % tomorrow.

[Fragomeni]

So I checked the dry down test prints for the Glossy and the difference isn't like I suspected. I think my eyes and the late hours tricked me. The dry down appears to be quite close between Semi-Matte and Glossy, the difference comes in with the reflectance of the deeper blacks on Glossy which fooled my eye. I think in the future I'll compensate for this difference more in the use of a different grade filter for the shadows rather then changing the dry down time drastically. Just thought I'd share.

[Mark Woods]

I use the Ilford FB Glossy and have not noticed any dry down problem. OTH, the FB Warmtone Semi-Matt has a huge dry down. Now that I've read of others experience, I'll give it a shot the next time I'm in the dark room. Thank you all!