TMX in XTOL: my negs have a "warm tone"!

[Phil Hudson]

I just found out from a supplier that Kodak have deleted Tmax RS developer in the handy 1 litre size so I thought I'd bite the bullet and use XTOL 1+1 as an ongoing alternative.

My initial reaction is ugh! My TMX is rather low in contrast (perhaps just lower than I've been used to) and there is a noticeable "warm" tone to the negative instead of the super clean looking negatives in Tmax RS.

I'm using a Jobo CPP2, 9mins @ 24C (75F).

Grain looks similar in size but it will be a while before I can print from these so looking for any experience out there.

Is this normal, or did anyone else feel a little underwhelmed by XTOL at first?

Thanks in advance!

[Sal Santamaura]

...there is a noticeable "warm" tone to the negative...Is this normal...See my post in this thread:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002rL2

That's why (the non-linearity) I never again used Xtol with TMX.

[Phil Hudson]

Thanks Sal. That answers it completely. I just hope they will print to a reasonable standard.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Sal there must then something be wrong with my developing parts since the last 10 years I get consistent results and not only I.
Colors on TMX film shows its underfixed to short or to old fix! There is no other film like TMX where almost eats the fix!

Amen!

[Phil Hudson]

Do you think refixing will help? They were fixed for 7-8 mins at 24C (1+4 Hypam) but.....

[Jan Pedersen]

The problem Sal's link refers to is a well known problem with the 1L batches which has long been discontinued.
I have not heard about inconsistency with the 5L bags that are sold now.
Whether Xtol is a good or a bad combination with TMX i don't know cause i don't use TMX

[Chuck P.]

Interesting to see this thread today....I ordered some Xtol today and will be doing a test with TMX. I've always used D-76 1:1 and HC-110 (H) with TMX, but have heard so much about Xtol and so thought I would produce a TMX curve with it.

[Sirius Glass]

Chuck, do not dilute it and use it replenished at 70ml/80 square inches as per the Kodak information. You will like to tonality which gets better as the XTOL becomes more seasoned.

Steve

[Mark Barendt]

I've only done a few rolls of TMX in Xtol, of those there was no problem at all, beautiful negatives.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I get consistent results and not only I.
Colors on TMX film shows its underfixed to short or to old fix!...The film was not underfixed back then nor have I underfixed any film since. All my processing at home is done using fresh fixer one-shot. Consistency doesn't mean the phenomenon doesn't exist. Yellow dense areas in Xtol-processed TMX are completely repeatable.


Do you think refixing will help?...Nope, it's got nothing to do with fixing.


The problem Sal's link refers to is a well known problem with the 1L batches which has long been discontinued. I have not heard about inconsistency with the 5L bags that are sold now...That's not correct. The phenomenon I'm referring to has absolutely nothing to do with the "dreaded Xtol failure." It is perfectly consistent. I first experienced it on negatives processed at a lab that bought 50l packages of Xtol and ran control strips twice each day. Their process was completely under control. Results were identical when I later tried TMX at home in Xtol mixed from a 5l package.

The yellow dense areas were visually obvious to me because that same lab had switched to Xtol from TMAX-RS. When looking at the first roll the color difference was immediately apparent. I've seen the same thing with Delta 100 and Acros as well as (although much less pronounced) FP4 Plus. Higher speed films are much less affected and don't suffer from curve distortion when printing. Among those that "play well" with Xtol are TMY-2 and 320TXP. I haven't tried Xtol with HP5 Plus, but expect it too would make a decent match.

If you scroll further down in the thread I linked you'll find another of my posts that includes the following from Xtol's inventors:



"...correspondence with Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadzki, the former Kodak employees who wrote "The Genesis of Xtol" in the September/October 1999 issue of Photo Techniques. Their response to my inquiry stated: "With both TMX and 100 Delta, at high exposures, you are punching light into the bottom portion of the film (closer to the film base). Both of these products have very fine grain emulsion in this area to capture heavy exposure (not nearly as fine with 400 speed films where you don't see such a problem). With Xtol, these grains that are very small to begin with are only partially developed (because it is a fine grain developer). Result would be extremely small developed silver particles - and when such silver particles start getting really small, they do take on a distinctly yellow cast which blocks blue light."

[Kevin Crisp]

I've never had this problem with Xtol and TMX; I develop it in Xtol 1:2 or D76 1:1 whatever I happen to have mixed at the moment. I did think the negatives I developed in HC110 looked a bit brownish.

[Jan Pedersen]

Sal, Interesting information. I have as i wrote no experience with TMX so i can't comment on that, i use TMY for 75% of my B&W and also use Delta 100 and have not noticed any yellowing but now that i know it will off course have to go through my negatives and pay extra attention in the future.

[Jay DeFehr]

Very interesting! I've never seen this yellow grain problem. I've seen warm brown grain with TP. Maybe it's only obvious with overexposure? I don't see how the problem relates exclusively to Xtol- it seems, according to Dickerson and Zwadzki, to be inherent in the films, and not directly attributable to Xtol, unless Xtol produces much finer grain than other common developers. It would seem Acros should suffer similarly, given its speed and even finer grain. I don't have any TMX, or Xtol, but if Dickerson and Zwadzki's diagnosis is correct, the problem should be producible using Acros and any superfine grain developer, given enough exposure, and measurable with a color densitometer, comparing visual and blue readings. Maybe I'll conduct a little experiment....

[Bruce Watson]

I just found out from a supplier that Kodak have deleted Tmax RS developer in the handy 1 litre size so I thought I'd bite the bullet and use XTOL 1+1 as an ongoing alternative.

My initial reaction is ugh! My TMX is rather low in contrast (perhaps just lower than I've been used to) and there is a noticeable "warm" tone to the negative instead of the super clean looking negatives in Tmax RS.

I'm using a Jobo CPP2, 9mins @ 24C (75F).

Grain looks similar in size but it will be a while before I can print from these so looking for any experience out there.

Is this normal, or did anyone else feel a little underwhelmed by XTOL at first?

The slight brown color is normal, yes. I get that with both Tri-X and TMY-2. Just as the slight purple color is normal with HC-110 and Tri-X (never tried HC-110 with TMY-2). I find a slight (less even than XTOL) brown-ish color from D-76 as well.

This is to be expected I think. Different developers work in different ways, and produce different results, and different side-effects.

As to contrast -- as always, the manufacturer gives starting points for exposure and development. It's your job to fine tune both exposure and development to optimize your personal workflow. If your shadow detail is insufficient, increase your exposure; if your highlight density is too low, increase your development time. But you should already know this.

Personally, I find XTOL gives excellent results with the TMAX films. I like it so much that XTOL is my only developer, and has been for five or six years now. I'm really pleased with the results I get with my Jobo at 20C, 3010 tank. XTOL really seems to like continuous agitation.

My only caution with XTOL is to mix it using distilled water. XTOL doesn't like dissolved iron much (iron is implicated in the "early XTOL failure" problem from years ago). I store stock XTOL in old wine bottles under vacuum (VacuVin stoppers), and have gotten identical results from fresh and 12 month old XTOL.

As to results, I find that XTOL gives me a touch better grain, a touch better sharpness than I could get with HC-110. Most importantly, I get full box speed with XTOL, which makes it nearly a full stop faster than HC-110.

But in the end, it really comes down to personal taste. If you don't like it, you don't like it. The fact that I love the stuff shouldn't make much difference to you.

[IanG]

Maybe people are overlooking the obvious, the finer the grain the warmer looking the emulsion depending on the developer used.

We utilise this with warm tone papers where finer grain controls image colour.

Another issue is that with the low volumes of chemistry used in a Jobo developers used 1+1 get exhausted and don't always build up contrast as you'd expect, you may well need to fine tune the development time to compensate.

Ian

[Sal Santamaura]

...I've seen warm brown grain with TP. Maybe it's only obvious with overexposure?...It would seem Acros should suffer similarly, given its speed and even finer grain...measurable with a color densitometer, comparing visual and blue readings. Maybe I'll conduct a little experiment...When used with TP and TXP, the color is brown but uniform across the negative's density range. I shoot TXP a full stop over the classically determined EI (i.e. 0.1 above fb-f) and still do not see yellow highlights on Xtol developed negatives.

Fine-grained films are where the non-linearity appears. As I mentioned in a previous post, Acros does indeed exhibit the phenomenon. To repeat what my linked March 28,2000 post said, there is virtually no effect on low negative values, and a significant shift in areas starting at 0.9 gross density. Way back when I first noticed this, a friend with color densitometer did take those measurements and confirmed what we both saw with our eyes. :)


The slight brown color is normal, yes. I get that with both Tri-X and TMY-2...As do I. But, to repeat, it's a uniform color on grainier films and doesn't distort the curve as it does with very fine-grain films.

This is only a definite problem if one desires to print on graded enlarging papers. When printing on variable contrast enlarging papers, it may or may not be a problem, depending on scene content and how much highlight softening is desired, somewhat similar to certain staining developers, althought the mechanism causing negative coloration is completely different and, unlike typical staining developers, non-linear. It could be a boon for someone shooting clouds. :)

I'm not an alternative process printer, so don't know for sure, but speculate that the yellow highlights when developing TMX, Delta 100 or Acros in Xtol might be beneficial to those who are. Again, it's a question of whether the non-linearity works with a specific scene.

My approach since encountering this phenomenon has been to develop TMX in TMAX-RS, Delta 100 in DD-X and Acros in Perceptol 1:3. That way I get negatives with linear scales and can make any desired modifications when printing. I have continued to successfully develop 320TXP in Xtol, but may transition to D-76 for that since I don't shoot enough to use up 5l even within the year+ that it keeps in completely full glass bottles.

[Bruce Watson]

Fine-grained films are where the non-linearity appears. As I mentioned in a previous post, Acros does indeed exhibit the phenomenon. To repeat what my linked March 28,2000 post said, there is virtually no effect on low negative values, and a significant shift in areas starting at 0.9 gross density.

I've never seen this. It's not unusual for my negatives to make it to 1.5-1.6 Dmax. I've not seen the yellow color, nor experienced any non-linear response. Then again, I like fast films.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I can't confirm it. And from what I'm reading I'm not likely to since I don't find much use for slow fine-grained films. Interesting....

[Sal Santamaura]

I just found out from a supplier that Kodak have deleted Tmax RS developer in the handy 1 litre size...I hadn't heard that before. No indication of discontinuation here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/29117-REG/Kodak_8446163_T_Max_RS_Developer.html

nor is one evident after a thorough Google advanced search of Kodak.com. Are you sure it's not a dealer/country discontinuation? Publication J-86 still lists 844 6163 as available.

I've used TMAX-RS with TMX for many years and am very pleased with the dead-neutral negative color that combination provides. I'm on the verge of filling my freezer with 5x7 TMX and, as a fallback developer, just purchased a 500ml bottle of Adonal

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12054-Adox-Adonal-17-oz.-500-ml-Rodinal-Formula?cat_id=301

to test. I expect that it will result in a substantially lower EI, but similarly neutral negatives, and that the Adox product will remain available long after Kodak does discontinue TMAX-RS.

[Phil Hudson]

Thanks for all the helpful responses. Seems that my problems have come up before quite a bit, but not for everyone.

My regular supplier here in London was quite adamant that they could no longer get Tmax RS in 1 litre size. They only now stock the 5 litre size (makes 25 litres, way too much for me). Perhaps it only affects the UK or perhaps my supplier isn't well informed......at any rate they didn't have it and said they couldn't get it so I left with XTOL.......

[Jan Pedersen]

Phil, The 5L packages only makes 5L not 25L. If you dilute your Xtol 1+5 as it sounds like it will certainly give you problems.

[Phil Hudson]

Sorry, I have just edited to clarify my last post.....I meant to refer to the problem in getting Tmax RS in 1 litre size and the fact that the 5 litre Tmax RS (makes 25 litres) is too big for me.

[Sal Santamaura]

...My regular supplier here in London was quite adamant that they could no longer get Tmax RS in 1 litre size. They only now stock the 5 litre size (makes 25 litres, way too much for me)...You could always order it from B&H. :)

[Phil Hudson]

You could always order it from B&H. :)

Yeah, or just shoot more! :(

[Arne Croell]

Thanks for all the helpful responses. Seems that my problems have come up before quite a bit, but not for everyone.

My regular supplier here in London was quite adamant that they could no longer get Tmax RS in 1 litre size. They only now stock the 5 litre size (makes 25 litres, way too much for me). Perhaps it only affects the UK or perhaps my supplier isn't well informed......at any rate they didn't have it and said they couldn't get it so I left with XTOL.......
It could be true. The small size T-max RS (1l concentrate) has not been available in Germany for quite a while, and the 5l concentrate version is standard if you can get it at all. However, in the US both Freestyle and B+H carry the 1 quart bottles. Actually, Freestyle carries only the 1 qt size, and B+H lists both 1qt and a larger one.

I once used the big version, when it was the only one available, over several years. I premixed parts A and B as concentrate, waited for a few days to mix well, and then filled the premixed concentrate into glass bottles (1l and 0.5l) to the top. No problems within the 3-4 years I needed to use it up.

[Jay DeFehr]

When used with TP and TXP, the color is brown but uniform across the negative's density range. I shoot TXP a full stop over the classically determined EI (i.e. 0.1 above fb-f) and still do not see yellow highlights on Xtol developed negatives.


Fine-grained films are where the non-linearity appears. As I mentioned in a previous post, Acros does indeed exhibit the phenomenon. To repeat what my linked March 28,2000 post said, there is virtually no effect on low negative values, and a significant shift in areas starting at 0.9 gross density. Way back when I first noticed this, a friend with color densitometer did take those measurements and confirmed what we both saw with our eyes.

Sal,

My question is; is this phenomenon attributable to overexposure of fine grain films developed in fine grain developers? Responses above, by you and other posters address development of slow films to high CIs, overexposure of fast films, and development in other developers, but not overexposure of slow films developed in fine grain developers. I don't doubt your experience, but I question the causes. Something must explain the discrepancy in experiences among those who see the phenomenon, and those who don't. One explanation might be that those who don't see it, aren't paying attention, but that seems unlikely. Given the explanation by Dickerson and Zawadzki, overexposure cannot be ruled out as a cause without testing, because it would also explain the discrepancy in experiences. It's a fairly simple experiment to conduct, since I have both a sensitometer and a color densitometer, and my curiosity is aroused. I'll let you know what I learn.

[Sal Santamaura]

...is this phenomenon attributable to overexposure of fine grain films developed in fine grain developers? Responses above, by you and other posters address development of slow films to high CIs, overexposure of fast films, and development in other developers, but not overexposure of slow films developed in fine grain developers...I'll let you know what I learn.I've not overexposed the fine grain films at all. Yellow appearance with TMX in Xtol starts at 0.9 gross density, which is in the neighborhood of Zone VII. I've not developed these films to a CI above 0.56 ("N"). This phenomenon is observable under "normal" exposure/development conditions.

I look forward to hearing what you learn and anticipate you'll verify Dick and Sylvia's explanation.

[Mak_Towl]

Looks good Ill have a look at the full size jpg in a second, but it looks like the Sigma 12-24 is doing a pretty decent job for you - I assume youre happy with it?