View Full Version : Good News for all who own Ordinary Triplet's!
Jim Galli
2-Dec-2010, 08:21
They are in fact Petzval's! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120654125023&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
I've got several that I can get about 10X more for now that I know this! Sweet!
"It is a Petzval with the classic single up front and air spaced pair in the rear but the front is not a cemented achromatic pair and only a single element"
Heh.
I'm going to sell my Gulfstream jet on eBay because it's so unusual. The wings are shaped like legs, and the engines don't roar so much as bray. :)
Mark Sawyer
2-Dec-2010, 12:17
Hey, that lens could be a real bargain! I'm pretty sure it's a Pinkham and Smith digital Apo-Petzval triplet...
Oren Grad
2-Dec-2010, 12:48
I'll cherish my Geronar all the more...
Dr Klaus Schmitt
2-Dec-2010, 13:14
yeah, right ;) ;)
My triplets are far from ordinary.;) :D
Richard Rankin
2-Dec-2010, 13:35
Funny that it has the same re-assembly instructions taped inside the barrel as some of my triplets...
Jim Galli
2-Dec-2010, 14:02
My triplets are far from ordinary.;) :D
If you put 2 in the back seat and one in the front, you have a petzval!
If you put 2 in the back seat and one in the front, you have a petzval!
That is what I do -- so now I know how to answer folks when they ask "Are they triplets?" I can say, "No. they are a petzval!" :D
Louis Pacilla
2-Dec-2010, 14:39
Jeffery must have run out of Darlot magic lantern Petzvals.
This is a crazy stretch for him. Unless I'm missing something.:confused: :confused: :confused:
Jason Greenberg Motamedi
2-Dec-2010, 14:41
Geoff does know lenses. Not sure about this one...
goamules
2-Dec-2010, 14:45
Best lines:
"This will produce an optical effect similar to the Pinkham & Smith Semi-Achromat, Gundlach Meniscus Portrait len, Spencer Port-Land, Struss, Kalosat, and other single achromat." - Means; It's a lens, and those have lens(es) too.
"The front element, in this instance, is a wollaston meniscus lens, the earliest form of photographic lens first used by Chevalier..." - Means; Look up those names, those sure are historic, expensive lenses. This one is a lens too.
"This lens is ideal for Daguerreotype & Wet Plate Collodian photography..." - Means....
Oh...I give up.
Steven Tribe
2-Dec-2010, 14:52
I have had pleasant dealings with Geoff and I agree with his descriptive approach to listing. But I can't help feeling that control has been lost and it is not much more than an exercise in keyword spamming - including all possible techniques and trade names - with a little relevant text for the item at hand (which went wrong this time too).
Jim Galli
2-Dec-2010, 15:09
Jeffery must have run out of Darlot magic lantern Petzvals.
This is a crazy stretch for him. Unless I'm missing something.:confused: :confused: :confused:
Geoff does know lenses. Not sure about this one...
Best lines:
"This will produce an optical effect similar to the Pinkham & Smith Semi-Achromat, Gundlach Meniscus Portrait len, Spencer Port-Land, Struss, Kalosat, and other single achromat." - Means; It's a lens, and those have lens(es) too.
"The front element, in this instance, is a wollaston meniscus lens, the earliest form of photographic lens first used by Chevalier..." - Means; Look up those names, those sure are historic, expensive lenses. This one is a lens too.
"This lens is ideal for Daguerreotype & Wet Plate Collodian photography..." - Means....
Oh...I give up.
Geoff does know lenses, and I called him on this 2 days ago, even sending diagrams from the Dioptrique (http://dioptrique.info/) site, and waited to see if he would correct this. I hate to be crossed off of his friend list, but this one is just too atrocious to ignore. Swirly bokeh? From a cooke triplet. A tessar turned around backwards is a better petzval than this. Oops, shouldn't give out ideas.
Ole Tjugen
2-Dec-2010, 16:03
... A tessar turned around backwards is a better petzval than this. Oops, shouldn't give out ideas.
Like a Xenar Typ D? Ugh...
Dan Fromm
2-Dec-2010, 17:43
No, Ole, like a 100/6.3 Neupolar, which is another way of spelling superb lens.
Ole Tjugen
2-Dec-2010, 17:53
Dan, my 150mm f:3.5 Xenar Typ D is a reverse Tessar. Always famous for being "unsharp wide open, while not improving much on stopping down".
On the other hand it gives considerable swirl on 5x7" film...
See his somewhat rambly reply to a question that someone asked him. Can a lens really be almost a Petzval? Isn't that kind of like being almost pregnant?
Jim Galli
3-Dec-2010, 11:58
Even better news than I originally imagined! Since every lens on earth can trace itself somehow in it's evolution to the original 1840 Petzval, they're ALL modified petzvals. I'm going to have a field day on Ebay with this new information!
goamules
3-Dec-2010, 13:00
Every listing is like this, and have been for years. How else do you sucker people into paying $900 for common magic lantern lenses? Same as Cameo Ham in my opinion. FeeBay won't do anything about it, and there's a sucker born every minute.
I think I'll sell my old Mazda, "which is just like a Toyota, which is identical to a Lexus...which are exactly like a Mercedes Benz..." Think the auction site will let me say all that?
I've seen the guy on eBay, of course. Never bought anything. Anyone have any thoughts or experience dealing with him? Opinions?
Kent in SD
leighmarrin
7-Dec-2010, 02:35
Sigh....
The subject of this thread, with the fraudulent description of "UNUSUAL BAUSCH & LOMB PETZVAL PORTRAIT 152mm BRASS LENS", ended with a winning $174.00 bid...
I've seen the guy on eBay, of course. Never bought anything. Anyone have any thoughts or experience dealing with him? Opinions?
Kent in SD
nice guy. very knowledgeable. huge collection of lenses. he has been collecting for many years.
i have met him several times. he accepts returns with no problem. he is on this site as well.....:)
nice guy. very knowledgeable. huge collection of lenses. he has been collecting for many years.
i have met him several times. he accepts returns with no problem. he is on this site as well.....:)
I assumed he knows his lenses well, as well as photo history. Glad to hear there is one more trustworthy vendor out there too.
Kent in SD
Jim Galli
7-Dec-2010, 10:10
I assumed he knows his lenses well, as well as photo history. Glad to hear there is one more trustworthy vendor out there too.
Kent in SD
Is completely mis-representing something for financial gain when you know and have been told by others that the lens is NOT a petzval "trustworthy"? I'm astonished frankly.
He just sold a $44 lens for $174 by lieing about it!! If that's trustworthy, contact me offline Kent, I've got some great deals for you. Want an 1860's lens, I've got dozens, and they're all petzvals.
Jim Graves
7-Dec-2010, 11:02
Jim's right. The guy made 3 clear misrepresentations in the title of the auction alone ... "unusual" ... "portrait" ... and "petzval." Then he added more in the description.
And, what makes it particularly odious (and indefensible) is that, as the posters here have noted, he was advised of the "errors" and is knowledgeable about lenses.
If he did that on the for sale section on this forum, you guys would tear him to pieces ... and, at least on this forum most of us have some knowledge about lenses ... not so on ebay.
He did cover himself by putting in phrases like "I believe it to be.." instead of "This is..". So basically he sold the lens as a Petzval based on his reputation. Well we will see what happens to his reputation now.
Steven Tribe
7-Dec-2010, 12:17
This is what I wrote to him during the listing.
"Interesting optics theory! Unfortunately, the Steinheil Portrait Antiplanet
design from 1881 IS a modified Petzval design with a cemented doublet in
front. These B&L projection Triplets were produced in the thousands for
Magic Lanterns and more sophisticated devices because they were a lot
cheaper to make without the cemented front cell. They are based on the
designs of H.D.Taylor of T.Cooke & Son and sold to Taylor, Taylor & Hobson
and patented by them. When patent rights ran out after a few years, they
eventually became the industry's favorite projection lens. It is not a
design that can made "interesting" unless you use the kind of resources
that Voigtländer had to develop the Heliar."
Of course, he knew all that anyway but decided to stick with his listing and not post further Q&A!
Jim Galli
7-Dec-2010, 12:30
And for the record, here is what I told him;
Geoff, the B&L is classic H. D. Taylor triplet invented in 1893.
http://dioptrique.info/OBJECTIFS5/00200/00200.HTM
It is 3 elements in 3 groups and B&L changed to them for their projectors sometime in the 'teen's. Most of the black and chrome B&L lenses are triplets. They give a pleasing sharp everywhere image like any anastigmat would do. And they were cheaper to make than a petzval. Plus with one barrel you could have different focal lengths by simply unscrewing the front which drops the entire lens out of the barrel. That's why they're marked so well on the front as to size.
Petzval as you know is 4 elements in 3 groups and is not an anastigmat which is why we love them.
http://dioptrique.info/OBJECTIFS1/00005/00005.HTM
You could end up with a very disgruntled customer. I bought a pretty 10 inch like that the other day also thinking I was going to beat the odds and it was a petzval. They're pretty much worthless. Good luck.
Jim
Dr Klaus Schmitt
7-Dec-2010, 14:50
I'm quite astonished that our member Geoff "berlinerantiques" writes such stuff in his lengthy *bay descriptions; he seemed quite knowledgeable to me though and someone who does his "homework". Over all, too much text always makes me suspicious ... and I'm quite shocked having read the previous entries.
Above posts are casting some doubt for me. When I read the original description I did think there was some puffery involved. I knew enough to recognize the lens was a relatively new projection lens, mass produced. Would be interested in hearing his explanation here.
Kent in SD
Fotoguy20d
10-Dec-2010, 14:13
Jim's right. The guy made 3 clear misrepresentations in the title of the auction alone ... "unusual" ... "portrait" ... and "petzval." Then he added more in the description.
And, what makes it particularly odious (and indefensible) is that, as the posters here have noted, he was advised of the "errors" and is knowledgeable about lenses.
If he did that on the for sale section on this forum, you guys would tear him to pieces ... and, at least on this forum most of us have some knowledge about lenses ... not so on ebay.
Apparently, the information he received from various sources "have been inaccurate and varied". So, here's another petzval triplet (http://cgi.ebay.com/BAUSCH-LOMB-12-EF-PETZVAL-BRASS-PROJ-LENS-8X10-5X7-/110623168411?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item19c1a7979b). I have one of those. Bet I can't sell it for what he gets...maybe if I claim its a petzval...
What a bunch of poorly written garbage. He's crossed the line from misleading to straight fraud. He must have nothing but contempt for his unwitting buyers. Very sad.
goamules
10-Dec-2010, 16:02
Yeah, the newest B&L lens ad caveat: "It has been pointed out to me that this is a triplet and not a Petzval but the descriptions that were given to me by these sources have been inaccurate and varied, especially when describing the Petzval formula and configuration."
Why does he need people to "point out" what a petzval is? Um...you simply unscrew the back, and see if the lenses are air separated. Then you see if the front is a cemented pair. He knows this, because when he sells a true petzval he shows tons of pictures of each piece of glass and carefully explains the air separated group.
Selective expertise to help sales.
He's got a lot of these "Very Unusual" lenses, and a bunch of crap in the description of each one.
I wonder if he sells used cars too, I certainly wouldn't buy a used lens off him.
Mark Sawyer
10-Dec-2010, 18:56
His professed ignorance about basic lens design is especially dubious as he teaches workshops on vintage optics, and is "currently the Director of the Center for Alternative Photography":
http://www.capworkshops.org/workshops.htm#lens
Steven Tribe
11-Dec-2010, 03:09
In the light of his item listing comments about "communications received", I am rather pleased that I posted my "note" to him here!
leighmarrin
11-Dec-2010, 04:25
His professed ignorance about basic lens design is especially dubious as he teaches workshops on vintage optics, and is "currently the Director of the Center for Alternative Photography":
http://www.capworkshops.org/workshops.htm#lens
And here's some text below from that link. Bewildering... Geoff Berliner represents a triplet as a petzval on eBay, but teaches a class in which "Participants will learn how to differentiate between lens designs such as the Petzval, Rapid Rectilinear..."
"CAP/ICP*: Antique Lens Discussion with Geoffrey Berliner & Eric Taubman
Date: Saturday, November 13
Time: 10:00am – 6:00pm (1 hour lunch)
Location: 36 East 30 Street NY, NY 10016
Price: $290
In this seminar, we will discuss lenses and the uses of various designs of 19th-Century brass lenses and early 20th-Century Pictorial, Special Effect, and Soft Focus lenses, especially as they pertain to alternative photographic processes. Various formats will be covered and appropriate focal length lenses for large format shooting will be described. Participants will leave knowing how to figure out what size film or plate a particular lens will cover. Participants will learn how to differentiate between lens designs such as the Petzval, Rapid Rectilinear, Wide Angle Globe, and soft focus lenses of the 20th century such as Pinkham & Smith, Struss Pictoral, and Verito. We will discuss how lens design effects the characteristics of the final image and how best to employ different lenses. Many antique lenses will be available for examination and for handling. Please feel free to bring in your lens for identification and suggested application for format, etc."
Steven Tribe
11-Dec-2010, 06:48
I suppose that Geoff does have a point in that these fast projection triplets, close to the original design by H.D. Taylor, must have lots of aberrations when used on largish formats. I have no idea whether these are interesting or not - and I doubt whether anyone has done the necessary experimenting. Geoff doesn't appear to have so - which is perhaps why he has resorted to the fallacious Petzval argument.
Louis Pacilla
11-Dec-2010, 07:29
O.K. Then. So I have a dog that acts a little like a cat. Is my dog EVER a cat? NO.
That's That. A triplet is just that, a triplet.
I suppose that Geoff does have a point in that these fast projection triplets, close to the original design by H.D. Taylor, must have lots of aberrations when used on largish formats. I have no idea whether these are interesting or not - and I doubt whether anyone has done the necessary experimenting. Geoff doesn't appear to have so - which is perhaps why he has resorted to the fallacious Petzval argument.
Dr Klaus Schmitt
11-Dec-2010, 07:39
I cannot believe that someone would deliberately misrepresent an item in an auction, just to make a few bucks more (and we speak really about "just some") and risks his reputation!!??
Dan Fromm
11-Dec-2010, 07:48
O.K. Then. So I have a dog that acts a little like a cat. Is my dog EVER a cat? NO.
Lou, several centuries ago I was given a cat who was very affectionate and clumsier than seemed possible. He arrived with no name, needed one. The obvious choices were "Dumb Shit" and "Puppy." Puppy won.
Time passed, I married, and acquired a very young nephew. Young nephew and his parents came to visit, was charmed by Puppy. When they came back a year later, slightly less young nephew asked where Dog was.
I was once in the driveway working on a car when the mail was delivered. We had outgoing as well as incoming, so I couldn't just take the incoming. As I walked up the front steps with the letter carrier Puppy came bounding out of the bushes. I reached down, patted him, and said "Hello, Puppy." The woman gave me a funny look and said "Your dog has bit me."
Dogs may never pass for cats, but cats, it seems, can pass for dogs.
Cheers,
Dan
Dan Fromm
11-Dec-2010, 07:49
I cannot believe that someone would deliberately misrepresent an item in an auction, just to make a few bucks more (and we speak really about "just some") and risks his reputation!!??
CIA Love Animal, Klaus. All those people who quote process lenses' coverage at 1:1 as at infinity. There are many such.
Louis Pacilla
11-Dec-2010, 17:38
Now that's a funny story Dan. Thanks for sharing that one I needed a good chuckle.
I think I would have liked to meet Puppy. Sounds like my kind of dog. Oops,, I mean cat .
Lou, several centuries ago I was given a cat who was very affectionate and clumsier than seemed possible. He arrived with no name, needed one. The obvious choices were "Dumb Shit" and "Puppy." Puppy won.
Time passed, I married, and acquired a very young nephew. Young nephew and his parents came to visit, was charmed by Puppy. When they came back a year later, slightly less young nephew asked where Dog was.
I was once in the driveway working on a car when the mail was delivered. We had outgoing as well as incoming, so I couldn't just take the incoming. As I walked up the front steps with the letter carrier Puppy came bounding out of the bushes. I reached down, patted him, and said "Hello, Puppy." The woman gave me a funny look and said "Your dog has bit me."
Dogs may never pass for cats, but cats, it seems, can pass for dogs.
Cheers,
Dan
Jim Graves
13-Dec-2010, 22:27
Well, if Geoff really does check in here ... maybe this double scan from Kingslake's A History of the Photographic Lens (pp. 36 & 104) will help him identify the lens he is actually selling ... I'm sure the volume is on his shelf ... and, it really doesn't get much simpler than this:
http://home.comcast.net/~mary.j.graves/PetzvalTriplet.jpg
I have the 15" B&L projection lens and the three elements look exactly like the Cooke Triplet.
Jim Graves
17-Dec-2010, 18:40
Well, he just sold another B@L triplet projection lens as a petzval ... this one a 12" ... it went for $275: Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110623168411&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
Maybe he'd be interested in my 15" at the wholesale price of $150 ... I could triple my money! Unbelievable!
Jim Galli
17-Dec-2010, 19:42
Ya, me too Geoff. I have a 10" triplet that you can have cheap so you can bilk someone with it too. You know my email address.
Paul Fitzgerald
17-Dec-2010, 23:01
SO, looking at the pictures, a Petzval is just a reversed Tessar.
Does that mean that all of the Raptars out there are reversed Petzval$ ???
Steven Tribe
18-Dec-2010, 03:10
The difference this time, was that he posted a photograph (fuzzy type). But there is no comment anywhere as to whether this image was taken using this lens or is just window dressing. Certainly the achieved price as better.
Jim Graves
18-Dec-2010, 10:39
Actually he did provide a statement about the photo shown in the auction:
"I am providing a an (sic) image that was taken with this type of lens, not the exact one but one that is a Bausch & Lomb projection lens of 12 inch focal length and f5.3 and of the same formula and configuration of elements. The image was shot on 8x10 film."
He does not note whether he took the picture or not ... nor how the out-of-focus effect was obtained with a normally sharp lens.
Here's the "sample" image (downsized): (and, a link to the bigger original in the auction {you have to scroll down}) Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110623168411&si=bjXWN1j%252FwUzcmOyJsN1rjhl0a3Q%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
http://home.comcast.net/~mary.j.graves/Petzval%20Triplet%20image.jpg
Steven Tribe
18-Dec-2010, 12:06
My apologies for misrepresenting his listing! My excuse is that I only skimmed the rather soporific "standard" text. I can't imagine how he made this image. Perhaps someone has an idea?
My apologies for misrepresenting his listing! My excuse is that I only skimmed the rather soporific "standard" text. I can't imagine how he made this image. Perhaps someone has an idea?
I can confirm that B&L Triplet will make images like this. I made this one on a B&L 12 inch EF I stole off a Magic Lantern projector, 5x7 negative:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4313144320_9c262ddddb_z_d.jpg
It gets very swirly quite easily- this one had a little front tilt but not a lot. But the lens is not really very sharp in the center or anywhere, unlike my Petzval which is much sharper.
Jason Greenberg Motamedi
22-Dec-2010, 17:42
Geoff is a friend of mine, and I teach at CAP. That said, I don't see why one of his sales is getting targeted for your collected wrath and scorn. So just let this go, you have done enough damage already, and these attacks are getting close to ad hominem. Geoff and the CAP do more to promote alternative and by extension LF photography than nearly any of us here, outside of our little forum.
cdholden
22-Dec-2010, 18:01
JG,
=n my opinion, that is the basis for the comments here... for someone who charges money for workshops, and even promotes lens identification on the website, to use wording in auction descriptions feigning ignorance to use buzzwords that sell. Like it or not, he has developed a reputation within the community. Trading on the integrity of that reputation in such a way is less than honest, in my not so humble opinion.
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