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View Full Version : Plastic Fidelity holders /damage to film?



George W.
24-Nov-2010, 04:02
I am wondering whether the plastic materials in fidelity holders
will interact longterm with the film emulsion, and damage this.

I had Kodak Portra400NC 8x10" inserted in Fidelity Holders.
I had them ca 12 months in the holders before use, the storage
temperature was ambient, and peremption date of film might have
been slightly passed.

When I got the film plus the contact prints back from the lab, the
prints were greyish, no vivid colours.

I have had previously film stored at ambient temperatures (in their
original box), I have had previously film slightly outdated. all this with
no problem.

My suspicion is now that the plastic of the holder might set free gases,
which interact with the emulsion.

Any similar experiences?

msk2193
24-Nov-2010, 05:52
The resin used to manufacture these holders is probably the least likely cause of this degradation in your film. Biggest of the variables is of course the chemical mix used by the lab.

George W.
24-Nov-2010, 07:08
I most surely can eliminate the lab as the cause.

I had both fresh film as well as film having stayed for 12 months in the holder,
that was sent to the lab at the same time and date.
The lab assures me that all films were simultaneously developed in the same
chemistry.

Gem Singer
24-Nov-2010, 07:36
In all probability, the culprit was the outdated color film, not the Fidelity film holders.

Michael Graves
24-Nov-2010, 07:46
In all probability, the culprit was the outdated color film, not the Fidelity film holders.

Agreed. Color film is far more susceptible to negative environment conditions than B&W. Not many years ago, I purchased a large quantity of color negative film from a store in St. Louis. It was all in-date and store in a refrigerator when I purchased it. Before we returned to Vermont, I shot a few rolls and had it developed at a local lab. It all came out beautifully. We took the scenic route getting home. I don't recall it ever getting seriously hot on the trip back, but it did take two weeks. The first roll I got back was seriously degraded in color and had the nastiest contrast. I wound up throwing it all away.

Louis Pacilla
24-Nov-2010, 08:17
Hi George

Did you buy the color film that was slightly out of date & in holders 12 months from a private owner off of eBay ? In other words was this film previously owned? Color film as you know is MUCH more sensitive to storage conditions & age. It could have been stored in unfavorable conditions before you bought it. Just another variable I thought I'd through out there.

CP Goerz
24-Nov-2010, 12:07
Also film in a box doesn't get quite as much oxidization as sitting 'open' in a holder, possibly another factor?

Henri Gaud
28-Nov-2010, 01:44
Bonjour,

J'ai déjà eu ce type de problème, mais uniquement avec des films Kodak, les films Fuji n'ayant pas ce type de problème selon mon expérience. Le résultat est une perte de Dmax sur les couches mais de façon inégale, ce qui en Ekta donne des bascules couleurs et des zones. Je situe l'origine du problème dans une oxydation provoquée par un film laissé à l'air libre, ce qui n'est pas le cas même dans une boite entamée. Je n'avais pas pensé aux émission de gaz des plastiques qui composent le chassis, mais les chassis que j'utilise ont entre 20 et 40 ans, l'air ambiant me semble un facteur plus fort. Mais je n'habite pas dans une zone ni urbaine ni industrielle, c'est du bon air de la campagne.
Il faudrait faire des tests plus scientifiques pour en savoir plus.

Je tente une google traduction (ne riez pas, c'est presque correct aujourd'hui).

I tried a google translation (do not laugh, it's almost correct today).

Hello,

I already had this kind of problem, but only with Kodak film, Fuji film without this type of problem in my experience. The result is a loss of Dmax on diapers but unevenly, which Ekta gives color scales and zones. I located the problem caused by oxidation in a film left in the open air, which is not the case even started in a box. I had not thought about the gas emissions, plastics that make up the chassis but the chassis that I use are between 20 and 40, the air seems a stronger factor. But I do not live in an area or urban or industrial, it's good country air.
There should be more scientific tests to learn more.

Henri

Brian C. Miller
28-Nov-2010, 02:04
Bablefish really needs to do some more work on their translation. I tried http://freetranslation.com and this is what I got:


I already had this problem type, but only with films Kodak, the films Fuji doing not have this type of problem according to my experience. The result is a loss of Dmax on the put to bed but in a manner unequal, which in Ekta gives of the tip colors and zones. I situate the origin of the problem in an oxidation provoked by a left film to the free air, which is not the case same in a started wood. I had not thought about the transmissions of gas of the plastic ones that compose the chassis, but the chassis that I use have between 20 and 40 years, the ambient air seems me a stronger factor. But I not live in an or urban or industrial zone, this is good air of the country. It would be necessary to do the more scientific tests for in to know more.

(Combining all three gives a better translation, but Bablefish had the largest number of non-translated words)

GPS
28-Nov-2010, 03:52
A typical film damage coming from ambient temperature film storage accelerated with open air storage. The same will happen to your film if left for 12 months in a MF camera body.
The idea of Fidelity holders outgasing film harmful vapours comes from your rear's end... don't forget that all 35 films are packaged in plastic containers wound on plastic spools...

George W.
28-Nov-2010, 05:25
Thank you for all your comments.

I *think* that the 2 kinds that I sent together to the lab had the same age,
the only difference being the good negatives were those left in the unopened
box, while the others had been inserted in the film holders for 12 months.
After the fact it is very difficult to verify that, as the production resp.
expiration date is not printed on the edge of the sheetfilm.

I am glad that least one person (Henri) has observed the same effect.

Perhaps one of the former Kodak Engineers could chime in, and add some
comments. thanks.

theBDT
28-Nov-2010, 07:41
I think blaming the Fidelity holders, even in conjecture, is way off base. Posters here have given you a myriad of explanations beyond out-gassing holders, and I feel like Fidelity's good name is being tarnished over pure speculation.

No one posting here has identified themselves as a chemical engineer, but by asserting a theory the burden of proof rests upon you; what proof do you have, beyond a very un-scientific guess, that the film holders are even out-gassing at all? Do you know what kind of plastic the film holders are made of? If they do indeed out-gas, do you know what kind of out-gassing material they might produce?

There are far too many variables, and the answer is far too likely to be a flaw within your own process, for anyone to take this conjecture about film holders seriously. Furthermore, 4x5 technology has been around as long as color film has been around; if there were some sort of out-gassing "smoking gun" I'd think someone would have found it by now.

But please, don't let me stop you from carrying out actual controlled experiments. Perhaps you could get an all-wooden film holder, and test it alongside a plastic one. Perhaps you could buy a large air-tight glass chamber, and then leave a couple of plastic holders in there for a few months; then you open it up and measure the chemicals in the air...

...or perhaps you could just not wait so long to develop your color film next time. :P

GPS
28-Nov-2010, 07:47
Thank you for all your comments.

I *think* that the 2 kinds that I sent together to the lab had the same age,
the only difference being the good negatives were those left in the unopened
box, while the others had been inserted in the film holders for 12 months.
After the fact it is very difficult to verify that, as the production resp.
expiration date is not printed on the edge of the sheetfilm.

I am glad that least one person (Henri) has observed the same effect.

...

You must be living on Mars...
Such film deterioration is a very common fact. It happened to me several times when I left MF film in some of my cameras for a longer period of time. The film "opened" to the lens and not wound up on the spool was damaged. Stop insisting on your original urban legend. :mad:

Gem Singer
28-Nov-2010, 07:55
The OP goes by the name "George W".

If his family name is "Bush", that would explain his stubborn ignorance.

Henri Gaud
28-Nov-2010, 09:17
Excusez moi,
Vous ne me semblez pas correct,
Georges W constate un phénomène,
Un phénomène connu, certe le dégazage du plastique du chassis ne semble pas être la cause la plus probable, mais plutôt l'air qui nous entoure, mais ce qui compte c'est la question.
Mais sa recherche et ses interrogations n'a pas de rapport avec votre GW, effectivement notre ami photographe n'a aucun lien avec votre GW, alors pourquoi l'insulter dans ces termes, il me semble que votre GW US ne s'est jamais posé la moindre question.
Note : George W, celui qui intervient sur ce forum, habite un minuscule petit pays d'Europe totalement pacifique et ne pourrait être assimilé à d'autre GW qui vivrait sur le sol d'une superpuissance despotique, comme le montre certaines interventions de ce fil.

A test SLD

Excuse me, You do not seem me correct, Georges W notes a phenomenon, A known phenomenon, certe the degassing of the plastic one chassis does not seem to be the cause more probable, but rather the air that surrounds us, but what counts is the question. But his research and its interrogations does not have any report with your GW, effectively our friend photographer has no link with your GW, then why to insult it in these terms, it seem to me that your GW US never put itself the least question. Note: George W, the one that intervenes on this forum, lives a small letter small of Europe country totally peaceful and could not be assimilated to other GW that would live on the despotic ground of a superpower, as the certain watch interventions of this wire.

Have a good day

Gem Singer
28-Nov-2010, 09:45
Henri Gaud,

My remark re: the coincidence of the OP's name "George W" was meant to be taken lightly, not seriously.

BTW, please remember, if it wasn't for this "despotic superpower" (as you call it), People would probably be speaking German in your country today.

Hope you also have a good day

GPS
28-Nov-2010, 09:48
Henri,
calling some countries "despotic" is not acceptable on this forum which doesn't allow political discussions. Take it elsewhere with your wisdom...

Henri Gaud
28-Nov-2010, 10:13
Salut les gars,

Loin de moi l'idée de vouloir parler politique,
Mais je n'en n'ai pas la primeur, l'allusion à GWB sans le moindre smiley était une allusion politique.
Pour ce qui concerne votre récent voyage en Europe, dans les années 1944-45, nous vous sommes toujours reconnaissants, on peut même dire très reconnaissant.
Mais n'oubliez pas que vous êtes soit des indiens (ce qui est très honorable) soit des émigrés européens (ce qui est tout aussi honorable), donc nos cousins, rien de plus, moins rien de moins, et entre cousins on ne compte pas les petits services. Alors compte tenu de ces faits, inutile de nous traiter de GWB, ni de nous rappeler 44-45 à chaque fois que l'on pointe du doigt ce qui ne doit pas être montré.

Bonne journée à tous.


Good day the guys, Far of me the idea to want to speak political, But I not some have the early produce, the allusion to GWB without the least smiley was a political allusion. For what concerns your recent trip in Europe, in the years 1944-45, we are yourself always recognizing, one even can say very recognizing. But do not forget that you are is Indian (what is very honorable) is European emigrants (which is all so honorable one), therefore our cousins, nothing of more, less nothing of less, and between cousins one does not count the small services. Then considering these facts, useless to treat us GWB, or to recall us 44-45 every time that one not at all of the finger which must not be showed.

Good day to all.

jeroldharter
28-Nov-2010, 11:06
I hope we leave the Bush bashing to the APUG Soapbox.

banjo
28-Nov-2010, 12:13
Hey all
the only time that I have had any thing like you are saying
IT IS FROM NOT KEEP EVERY CLEAN
if you load your film in the same place that you process
you will pick up Chemicals dust that can get in to you film holder
in my new Lab I will be getting a Cleanroom for loading & unloading
only!! with no forced air Heat//cool so I can't get Chemicals dust from
the lab!

Dominique Cesari
28-Nov-2010, 14:08
I also had a bad exeperience with Fuji film left unused in Toyo holders (the "bad smell" type). Colour change, loss of dynamic and multiple small see-through specks.

Sirius Glass
28-Nov-2010, 15:54
The OP goes by the name "George W".

If his family name is "Bush", that would explain his stubborn ignorance.

:D :D :D

Lynn Jones
29-Nov-2010, 13:54
Lisco and Fidelity were technically identical except for the exterior surface. The founder/owner of the company created a sllightly different look and different name so that dealers could sell under the different name. the second owner of Calumet bought the Lisco/Fidelity company to compliment Calumet, and Cambo cameras, both of which he owned and ,of course, the less expensive Cambos became the Calumets eventually.

Lynn