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Rinthe
20-Nov-2010, 08:23
Are there speed graphics made specifically for roll film or it's simply just a matter of switching the film holder between 4x5 and roll film?

and what are the differences between speed, crown and super graphics? I'm thinking about getting one with the kodak ektar lens, maybe.

Dan Fromm
20-Nov-2010, 08:48
Run, do not walk, to www.graflex.org and read the FAQs. After you've read them, ask questions about what you don't understand. You'll get better answers there than here.

IanG
20-Nov-2010, 08:57
Just beware that the miniature Speed Graphics and their competitor Busch Pressman models came with two different backs. (As do the 5x4 models).

One type is for cut film holders, rather impractical these days but not impossible although expensive. The later type allows the use of Graflex & similar roll film backs and these are the ones to go for if you want to use 120 backs.

The Super Graphic was Graflex's rather late competitor to the Linhof's and MPP's, later made in Japan by Toyo.

Ian

Dan Fromm
20-Nov-2010, 10:32
Ian, you forgot that Graphics were offered with Graflex backs too. As I said, this forum is not the best place to get information about Graflex' products.

ki6mf
20-Nov-2010, 10:45
The graphic roll film camera is the Century Graphic sometimes called a baby graphic. It was desgned to use either roll film holders or sheet film holders depending on the model purchased. Look for the type that allows for attachment of a roll film adapter. It only allows for tilt of the front standard. The roll film holders come in 6X6, 6X7 and 6X9. Make sure it is not a 3X4 film size as this film size is not made and is worthless for taking pictures.

You can also use roll film adapters on a View camera provided it has the type of back that can take the roll film holder.

Dan Fromm
20-Nov-2010, 12:59
Wally, I said in post #2 in this thread that this forum is the wrong place to get good advice about Graphics. Your post #5 proved my point.

Get you to www.graflex.org and read the FAQs.

ki6mf
20-Nov-2010, 20:39
There is also a Graflex XL which is a roll film range finder camera and these come up on E Bay from time to time. I think a similar one was made in Japan and was called the Koni Omega!

Robert Perrin
21-Nov-2010, 00:54
Certainly spend plenty of time with the Graflex site before investing in a graphic. Meanwhile to answer your specific questions, no there were no speed graphics made specifically for roll film but those with a graflok back were made to be adaptable for Graphic's roll film holder as well as sheet film. The differences between speed and crown graphic is that the speed has a focal plane shutter and the crown does not. Speed and Crown models have a wood body (under leather), the Super and Super Speed Graphics have a metal body and no focal plane shutter. The Century Graphic has a plastic body. I'd add that the Calumet aka Cambo type roll film holder can be used on a spring-back camera and doesn't require removing the ground glass assembly when used on a graflok.

IanG
21-Nov-2010, 02:23
There is also a Graflex XL which is a roll film range finder camera and these come up on E Bay from time to time. I think a similar one was made in Japan and was called the Koni Omega!

The Graflex XL is a re-badged camera :D Graflex saw that as a way forward they and MPP (UK) also sold the same re-badged 35mm camera,

Ian

John Berry
21-Nov-2010, 03:15
There is also a Graflex XL which is a roll film range finder camera and these come up on E Bay from time to time. I think a similar one was made in Japan and was called the Koni Omega!
That would be the mamiya press cameras.

Dan Fromm
21-Nov-2010, 06:13
John, Ian, I fear you are both misinformed about the Graflex XL.

Ian, please tell us which camera (maker, model) you think the XL really is.

John, have you ever confronted an XL with a Mamiya Press? I have, and they're far from identical.

Drew Bedo
21-Nov-2010, 07:19
Mamya's RB 67 and RZ 67 were derived from the Graflex Reflex designs. If you are looking for a Med format reflex camera, the RB/RZ and Hassy are available and still great system cameras.

Dan Fromm
21-Nov-2010, 08:24
Drew, y'r comment inspired me to take out my little 2x3 RB Series B. Its been converted into an SLR module for a 2x3 Cambo but its still a Graflex.

It is an SLR with rotating back. Otherwise I can't see how to develop the thing into an RB without tossing it and starting from scratch. Do you think that the Nikon F was derived from the Graflex SLR too?

Graflex: wood body, focal plane shutter, manual mirror return, no autodiaphragm except for a couple of lenses for the RB Super D (external add-on, the diaphragm has to be cocked for each shot). Rotating back, but not all Graflexes have this feature.

Mamiya RB: metal body, leaf shutter in lens, manual mirror return, internal autodiaphragm, rotating back.

There are short lenses for the RB, but we can't hold that against the Graflex.

Rinthe
23-Nov-2010, 16:04
thank you guys for the information.

I've been looking for a speed graphics on ebay that'll fit the aero ektar lens.

but it is hard to tell from ebay which speed graphics they really are. some are 23 some are 34 and i believe the one i need is the 45 speed graphics. any idea how i can distinguish between these speed graphics?

thanks.

Jack Dahlgren
23-Nov-2010, 16:14
thank you guys for the information.

I've been looking for a speed graphics on ebay that'll fit the aero ektar lens.

but it is hard to tell from ebay which speed graphics they really are. some are 23 some are 34 and i believe the one i need is the 45 speed graphics. any idea how i can distinguish between these speed graphics?

thanks.

The listing should say the size. If it doesn't, then a simple question to the seller should solve it. If they can't answer then perhaps you don't want to be buying from them anyway. Finally, look at some of the distinguishing characteristics (size of knobs relative to camera, size of bellows, lenses that come with it ...)

IanG
23-Nov-2010, 16:40
John, Ian, I fear you are both misinformed about the Graflex XL.

Ian, please tell us which camera (maker, model) you think the XL really is.

John, have you ever confronted an XL with a Mamiya Press? I have, and they're far from identical.

I'm not sure who Graflex worked with Dan, it'd not been something I've looked into, but it's be widely written about since the 70's although not much online.

However Graflex had some links with other companies. like MPP & the MicroPress a Apeed Graphic in disguise, and managed to hide the connectionss well. There wasn't the Globalisation of trade in the 50's, 60;s & early 70's. A brand could be dominant or big in one market and hardly known in another.

Ian

Dan Fromm
23-Nov-2010, 17:34
rinthe, don't be so <insert obscenity of choice> coy! Don't beat around the <insert another obscenity> bush, ask your question first try.

Look here http://www.xs4all.nl/~lommen9/ for information about fitting 7"/2.5 Aero Ektars to 4x5 Speed Graphics. In the US skgrimes.com can do the job too.

Ian, when I was contemplating moving up from 24x36 to a larger format I looked into Graflex XLs, Koni-Omegas, and the Mamiya Press line. Somewhere along the line I looked at all of the MF camera descriptions on Bob Monaghan's huge site. There's nothing like the Graflex XL. IIRC, it was designed by Hubert Nerwin, who also had a large hand in the Contax and the Texas Contax, also known as the Combat Graphic (KE-4).

Perhaps you were thinking of one of the 35 mm cameras that Graflex rebadged or of one of the TLRs. They bought Ciro, made what they sold as Graflex 22s, i.e., Ciroflexes. They resold Kalloflexes too.

Jay DeFehr
23-Nov-2010, 18:54
The Graflex XL wasn't much like any other camera. I suppose I'm a Graflex fan; I own graphics, graflexes, XLs, and a scale focus 35mm. The Graflex Xl is a really cool system! The RF is big and bright and accurate, there were several backs made to fit it for 120/220/70mm roll film, 2x3 sheet film, polaroid, and even a 4x5 back with ground glass. There were back spacers for macro work, and some very nice lenses, including the 58mm Grandagon. The downside was the plastic focus ring that got sluggish with cold and/or age, and snapped the little focus tabs. A Graflex XL in good working condition is a joy to use and capable of excellent results. I'm planning to build an adapter back for mine so I can use my 3x4 Graflex bag mags with it. The throat is actually 4x4, I think, so theoretically, one could make a rotating 3x4 back for it. I think the 58mm Grandy on a 3x4 RF would be a beautiful thing!

Sorry to digress.

rdenney
23-Nov-2010, 20:28
thank you guys for the information.

I've been looking for a speed graphics on ebay that'll fit the aero ektar lens.

but it is hard to tell from ebay which speed graphics they really are. some are 23 some are 34 and i believe the one i need is the 45 speed graphics. any idea how i can distinguish between these speed graphics?

thanks.

You need a 4x5 Graphic if you want to use a 7" lens, unless you're going for something significantly longer than normal. Also, that lens might not fit in the smaller front standard of a 2x3 or 3x4 Graphic.

The history of Speed Graphic models is: Pre-Anniversary, Anniversary, Pacemaker, and Super.

Speed Graphics have focal-plane shutters, and Crown Graphics do not, until the Super Speed Graphic came out. That is a nice camera but it's unlike other Graphics, and has no focal-plane shutter even though it's called a Speed. The Super has a top rangefinder that uses its own switchable cams for changing lenses.

Speed Graphics did not have front lens tilt until the Pacemaker series. Anniversary and Pre-Anniversary Graphics have a fixed lens standard with no tilt, plus other changes going back in time. The visual difference in an ebay ad is that the Pacemaker has a chrome front standard with thumbwheel nuts on the lower corners to lock the tilt control, while earlier Speed Graphics usually had a black front standard with solid sides and no tilt locks.

The Pacemaker series came in two basic versions, the side-mount rangefinder and the later top rangefinder. Both will suit your purpose. The side-mounted rangefinder was supplied by a third-party supplier, either Kalart or Hugo Meyer. The Kalart can be calibrated (on the bench, and with some difficulty) for any lens you choose; the Hugo Meyer cannot. The top rangefinder can be switched form one lens to another by changing the cams, if you can find the correct one. The Top-Rangefinder Pacemaker does not use the same cams as the Super. It is possible to mount a Kalart onto the side of a top-rangefinder speed graphic, giving you two rangefinders that can be set up for two different lenses. I'm building one such right now--the top is already calibrated for the stock 127mm lens, and I will be calibrating the side rangefinder for an 8-1/2" Ilex Paragon.

Graphics (Crown or Speed) came with either a Graphic, Graflex, or Graflok back. If you want to use roll films, you need the Graflok back. It will be difficult to find a pre-Pacemaker Graphic with a Graflok, and that's the main reason you want a Pacemaker. The Graflok back was adopted by the rest of the 4x5 camera industry as the "international" back, and any holder designed for either will fit both, with a few weird exceptions. So, on a Graflok-equipped Speed Graphic, you can use either a Graflex or any other brand of roll film holder. In my view, the Linhof-style holders are the best value--Horseman and Wista both made Linhof-style 6x9 holders (as did, of course, Linhof). The Graflex holders are cheaper, but harder to find in well-sorted-out condition. I've been burned on a couple of them. Make sure you buy roll film holders for 4x5 cameras and not 2x3. The usual designation will be "6x9 holder for 4x5" or "4x5 holder for 6x9 roll film".

The Fuji pack-style instant film holders will also fit a Graflok back, either the PA-45 or the PA-145. The red-window-style 6x12 holders (Shen-Hao, DaYi) will also fit. And at the other end of the food chain, the Sinar Vario and Vario Zoom holders will also fit.

If you want to use barrel lenses that are not mounted in a shutter, then the focal-plane shutter in the Speed Graphic is nice to have. If you don't, then the Crown is lighter and a bit less thick folded up. Both take the same lenses and lens boards, and the lenses for both usually also have a shutter.

Rick "my quickie core dump on Speed Graphics" Denney

Rinthe
24-Nov-2010, 03:31
rdenney: Wow thank you! exactly what I'm looking for.

Rinthe
24-Nov-2010, 14:18
rdenney: what are the visual differences between the graphic, graflex and the graflok backs?

Dan Fromm
24-Nov-2010, 14:32
rdenney: what are the visual differences between the graphic, graflex and the graflok backs?You <deleted>, there are pictures on www.graflex.org.

I told you to go there and read the FAQs. They're the next best thing to the Bible (Morgan & Lester's book Graphic Graflex Photography, and if you buy one -- but you won't, you want to be spoon fed with partially digested bugs and worms -- buy the 9th or later edition). What you're getting here is the usual bulletin board mishmash of incomplete and partially incorrect answers.

Now go and read. If you still have questions, ask them on the www.graflex.org help board. Participants there know more about Graphics than people here.

rdenney
24-Nov-2010, 18:56
You <deleted>, there are pictures on www.graflex.org.

I told you to go there and read the FAQs. They're the next best thing to the Bible (Morgan & Lester's book Graphic Graflex Photography, and if you buy one -- but you won't, you want to be spoon fed with partially digested bugs and worms -- buy the 9th or later edition). What you're getting here is the usual bulletin board mishmash of incomplete and partially incorrect answers.

Now go and read. If you still have questions, ask them on the www.graflex.org help board. Participants there know more about Graphics than people here.

Dan, not that they'll share that information with the same willingness as here. I've asked a question or two on that board, including why one of my roll-film holders had a bump on it that nobody there had ever seen until they went and looked. And if you hint that you are looking for this part or that part, they'll dump on you for breaking a rule which I never saw in any of their FAQs. And I read every FAQ and every article on that site. It was something they said you had to learn by reading the forum for a while before posting. I'd already spent several hours searching through their archives, and I read fast. Apparently, "No For Sale" means one can't ask about parts one is searching for. They were polite enough after the first correction, and I was polite in return, but it left a mildly bitter taste, to be honest.

It's a good site but it is not quite as infallible and omniscient as you indicate. And some of the folks over there can be grouchy, just like here.

Rick "now you can call me a name, too, if you want" Denney

JOSEPH ANDERSON
24-Nov-2010, 22:16
Dan You Are Correct. Lots Of Miss Info On The The Craphic Here. I Find That
A Little Strange, For One Of The Most Famous Cameras Ever Made
Joe A

rdenney
24-Nov-2010, 23:23
rdenney: what are the visual differences between the graphic, graflex and the graflok backs?

The Graflok back has sliding tabs above and below the ground glass frame, and sliding hooks on the ground glass frame that hold it in place. To remove the ground glass, you push in the hooks and slide the ground glass frame to one side, and it comes off. Then, you place the holder onto the camera, and slide the tabs to lock it down.

The Graphic back is a conventional spring back. Only slide-in roll-film holders will work with it.

The Graflex back was a variation on the Graflok that might have been installed on a few Speed Graphics, but I haven't seen them very often. They also have locking tabs and a removable focus panel.

http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/features.html#GraflokBack

Rick "interested only in Graflok backs" Denney

Dan Fromm
25-Nov-2010, 05:13
Rick, unfortunately LF cameras help those who help themselves.

What really annoyed me about the original poster is that it shows no signs of having tried to help itself. I have no idea whether the OP is young or old, but it brings to mind unkind comments on The Chronicle of Higher Education about poorly prepared college freshmen.

Um, go take a look at the Graflex I'm sure you have. The Graflex back has one slider at the top of the gate to lock the film holder in place; at the bottom edge of the film holder slips under a lip. The Graflok back has two sliders, one at the top of the gate, the other at the bottom.

Years ago I published a book review that said, in essence, "Every fact asserted in this book is wrong. If you must buy it, don't open it. If you must open it, enjoy the pretty pictures but don't read the text. People who know enough to protect themselves from the errors in it don't need it. People who don't know enough should stay away from it." For this I was lambasted by serious conscientious types who insisted that misinformation is better than none.

Dan "being uninformed and knowing it is better than being misinformed and not knowing it" Fromm

Michael Cienfuegos
25-Nov-2010, 09:43
Graflex.org is indeed a good resource, but it is run by a bunch of curmudgeons who at times part with their knowledge only grudgingly. One fellow from Australia who was getting help for his Speeds and willingly sharing his accomplishments was chastised for being "too glib" about his accomplishments. I appreciate someone sharing their knowledge with me, it may make the difference between having a useful camera or a piece of junk. That is why I like this LF and APUG. There are a lot of friendly people on board who are willing to share their knowledge and give a newbie a helping hand.


m

Dan Fromm
25-Nov-2010, 09:53
Michael, the problem with those oh-so-friendly folks is that all too often their advice is incomplete or completely wrong. Willingness to help is wonderful, but not all that's offered as help really is.

There are reasons why we grumpy old men are grumps. I'm coming 'round to the position that newbies who won't try to help themselves should be left to, um, drown.

Michael Cienfuegos
25-Nov-2010, 09:56
Michael, the problem with those oh-so-friendly folks is that all too often their advice is incomplete or completely wrong. Willingness to help is wonderful, but not all that's offered as help really is.

There are reasons why we grumpy old men are grumps. I'm coming 'round to the position that newbies who won't try to help themselves should be left to, um, drown.

If they are not willing to try and help themselves, I will cheerfully help hold their heads under water. There are a few in that group (Pack rats) who probably have every camera ever built by Graflex. They are the best resource and usually willing to help. The rest of that bunch can be a real PITA. ;)

rdenney
25-Nov-2010, 12:21
...being uninformed and knowing it is better than being misinformed and not knowing it" Fromm

The fellow asked a question because he was uninformed and knew it. He wanted to know how to identify the preferred choices when viewing eBay ads, which, as I know from experience, is not a requirement perfectly fulfilled by the Graflex.org FAQ. The subtlety in the Graflex back you described above is 1.) not mentioned in the graflex.org article nor 2.) is it clear from their tiny pictures. It is also irrelevant to the OP who doesn't want that back anyway. Yes, I own a Speed Graphic and have played with many Graphics over the years, but I have never handled one with a Graflex back. I knew enough to know what not to buy, and that's what I presented.

So, your argument is based on misinformation being given to the OP. Which misinformation did I give him? Don't be coy.

Your insistence in pointing him to a general resource rather than providing an answer reminds me of the old joke about a group of guys who recycled their jokes so much that they numbered them. One would holler out "14!" and the others would laugh. Sometimes old jokes just need to be told again.

Rick "who was answering a question, not answering all questions" Denney

Dan Fromm
25-Nov-2010, 15:43
Rick, I don't fault the original poster for asking a question. I don't think he tried to search before asking, and that's something else.

He didn't ask about backs, he asked whether there are "speed graphics" that use only roll film and about the differences between models. To refresh your memory, here's the original post, uncut:

"Are there speed graphics made specifically for roll film or it's simply just a matter of switching the film holder between 4x5 and roll film?

and what are the differences between speed, crown and super graphics? I'm thinking about getting one with the kodak ektar lens, maybe."

I directed him to read the FAQs, which do a fairly decent job of explaining the differences between Speed, Crown, and Super. Since then its been downhill all the way. Turns out he wants to use a 7"/2.5 Aero Ektar, not the unspecified Ektar he mentioned initially, which limits him to a Speed Graphic. Well-intentioned people have replied to question the OP didn't ask. Typical bulletin board behavior.

As for you, I went to the Speed Graphic FAQ, could see the differences between the three kinds of backs. Perhaps knowing the answer helped, may count as cheating.

42!

GPS
25-Nov-2010, 17:01
Eh Dan, as you speak French you surely know their proverb about not being able to make a not thirsty horse drink. But those horses seem perfectly happy to see how you try to let them drink - it feels so much better than the drinking itself...;-)

rdenney
25-Nov-2010, 21:29
42!

Heh. I saw that focus screen tilted back on the pic of the Graflex back, but the fact that it hinged onto the lower edge wasn't apparent.

And you're right that I sort-of divined what the OP was really asking, but that's the adult educator in me. I usually get questions that require a little mind-reading. It did seem clear that he wanted a Graphic camera that would accommodate roll film, and was curious about how that worked. Since I'd just been down that path, it was easy enough to go lay it out, aimed at how to choose a Graphic for roll film holders. Yes, then when he mentioned the 7" lens, I figured that steered it to a 4x5.

Sometimes people don't know enough to know what to ask. My observation is that we are more tolerant over here than some other forums of people in that situation. That's probably a good thing, even if it does bring out the grumpiness from time to time.

Rick "who just today resurrected the Speed Graphic from its hiding place during home remodeling" Denney

Michael Cienfuegos
26-Nov-2010, 09:18
I have an Aero-Ektar sitting on the bench just waiting to be put on one of my Speeds. It will probably end up on the Pre Anny Speed, still have to either make a lensboard or put out the cash to Jo Lommen for a lensboard. Having just bought another lens for my M2 I will probably have to fabricate something on my own, Jo is out of my range right now. I can't see using roll film on a 4x5. I do have two roll film holders for my 2x3 Speed and two for my Graflex-back 2x3 Graflex RB SLR. I just have to make enough time to go out into the field and use these puppies.


Mike (busier than ever since I retired) Cienfuegos