Pyrocat HD Problem

[Richard Wasserman]

I just processed 2 batches of film, Acros and TMY-2, and they both came out grainy and not sharp. I have been using Pyrocat as my main developer for years and have never had this problem, and can't figure out where I went wrong. Both batches of film were processed at 72º with agitation at 4 minute intervals, just as I always do. I was using freshly mixed developer (about 1 hour old). Any ideas? Did I leave something out when I mixed it? Was the Pyrocat too fresh? I will toss this batch and mix a new one, but this is a real head-scratcher for me. Don't ask how important this film was...

[sanking]

I just processed 2 batches of film, Acros and TMY-2, and they both came out grainy and not sharp. I have been using Pyrocat as my main developer for years and have never had this problem, and can't figure out where I went wrong. Both batches of film were processed at 72º with agitation at 4 minute intervals, just as I always do. I was using freshly mixed developer (about 1 hour old). Any ideas? Did I leave something out when I mixed it? Was the Pyrocat too fresh? I will toss this batch and mix a new one, but this is a real head-scratcher for me. Don't ask how important this film was...

No idea what happened but the Pyrocat can not be too fresh. I often use it right after mixing. If I were you I would process one more test roll and if it is also grainy and not sharp I would toss the stuff you just mixed and mix a fresh batch. I would suspect that something is wrong with either your chemicals or mixing because for a negative to come out visually grainy and not sharp with any developer suggests something very drastic is wrong.

Sandy

[Gem Singer]

Was this Pyrocat-HD in glycol?

If not, how old is the "A" concentrate?

I use Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 at 70F. Continuous agitation for the first minute. Then agitate for 15 sec. every two minutes.

The only time I had a result similar to what you describe was when I formerly used old Pyrocat-HD in water and accidentally mixed the wrong amounts of "A" and "B" concentrates.

[Jan Pedersen]

1 hour is way to long in advance to mix Pyrocat developer, at least in my experience.
Mix it as you prewash your film so it fresh.
After one hour oxidation will have taken the best out of the mix.

[Richard Wasserman]

No idea what happened but the Pyrocat can not be too fresh. I often use it right after mixing. If I were you I would process one more test roll and if it is also grainy and not sharp I would toss the stuff you just mixed and mix a fresh batch. I would suspect that something is wrong with either your chemicals or mixing because for a negative to come out visually grainy and not sharp with any developer suggests something very drastic is wrong.

Sandy


I find it really strange, the density and contrast are correct, it's just clearly unsharp and grainy.

[Richard Wasserman]

1 hour is way to long in advance to mix Pyrocat developer, at least in my experience.
Mix it as you prewash your film so it fresh.
After one hour oxidation will have taken the best out of the mix.


What I meant was I mixed the stock concentrates one hour before I used them. I do mix the working solutions as the film soaks in a prewash.

[IanG]

Both these films are very prone to grain clumping/micro reticulation due to temperature changes in the processing cycle, including washing.

The visual effects are very noticeable grain.

Ian

[Jay DeFehr]

I'm with Ian; nothing I can think of better explains how the film could be visibly grainy and unsharp, yet maintain normal density and contrast.

[IanG]

I should add that until I saw this for myself when a friend processed a roll of Tmax 400 using my developer, stop, fix, tank, thermometer etc I wouldn't have believed it could happen.

The roll of 120 Tmax 400 was excessively grainy and lacked sharpness, my 35mm Tmax 400 was normal. As the developer was the same replenished Xtol the only difference was the control of temperature. The 120 film itself came from my stock.

Back in Turkey I process Acros at 27º C in the summer with no issues, but then it's very easy to keep the temperatures stable well within +/- 1º C as 27º C the ambient water temperature, even when it's ver 40º C outside.

Others have reported similar excessive grain problems related to temperature variations, and full reticulation with Neopan 400 particularly in Rodinal.

Ian

[Richard Wasserman]

Both these films are very prone to grain clumping/micro reticulation due to temperature changes in the processing cycle, including washing.

The visual effects are very noticeable grain.

Ian

This is certainly a plausible explanation and makes more sense than a mistake in mixing the developer. I'm fairly obsessive about having everything at the same temperature–I use an Intellifaucet, water-bath when I can, etc, but of course could have blundered somewhere without realizing it. I've been using Pyrocat since Sandy King went public with the formula, and have developed I don't know how many sheets and rolls of film with it, and never had this problem. The joys of photography, always something new!

[Ken Lee]

Sheet film ? Roll film ?

Tray development ? Jobo ? Tubes ?

[Richard Wasserman]

Sheet film ? Roll film ?

Tray development ? Jobo ? Tubes ?


It was 120 film in stainless steel tanks in a water-bath, just as I've done many, many other rolls before.

[Keith Pitman]

When I had an Intellifaucet, I found it could drift to a much higher temperture if it was at a low flow rate. Possibly happened in your wash?

[Ken Lee]

Perhaps I missed it, but do you mix your own stock solutions from ingredients, or purchase it pre-made ?

[Richard Wasserman]

Perhaps I missed it, but do you make your own stock solution, or purchase it ?


I mix my own.

[Ken Lee]

I guess the best thing is to take a bunch of photos on a roll of film and try again.

As other have suggested, reticulation is caused by fluctuations in temperature, but you keep your tanks in a water bath.

Are all the photos on the rolls, equally spoiled ? (Just grasping at straws here. If some were worse than others, that might reveal something).

[Richard Wasserman]

I guess the best thing is to take a bunch of photos on a roll of film and try again.

As other have suggested, reticulation is caused by fluctuations in temperature, but you keep your tanks in a water bath.

Are all the photos on the rolls, equally spoiled ? (Just grasping at straws here. If some were worse than others, that might reveal something).


I've been thinking about this and I don't think it's grain clumping/reticulation because it happened to 4 batches of film equally. Every frame on every roll is affected. I dumped both A & B solutions and remixed them. I'll shoot a test roll tomorrow and process it–hopefully it will turn out well and I can put this unfortunate event behind me.

[sanking]

I've been thinking about this and I don't think it's grain clumping/reticulation because it happened to 4 batches of film equally. Every frame on every roll is affected. I dumped both A & B solutions and remixed them. I'll shoot a test roll tomorrow and process it–hopefully it will turn out well and I can put this unfortunate event behind me.

Could be Vodoo. I grew up in Louisiana and one of my aunts once left a shrunken head of a woman in my closet. I returned it to her as soon as I found it but I fear her relatives have tried to punish me over the years by fouling up the things I hold dear. I have tried to keep the story of Pyrocat from them but you never know . . . . !!!

Sandy

[onnect17]

Richard, What is the temperature in the room during film development?

[Jay DeFehr]

I've been thinking about this and I don't think it's grain clumping/reticulation because it happened to 4 batches of film equally. Every frame on every roll is affected. I dumped both A & B solutions and remixed them. I'll shoot a test roll tomorrow and process it–hopefully it will turn out well and I can put this unfortunate event behind me.

Were all four rolls developed together?

[Richard Wasserman]

Were all four rolls developed together?


It was actually 8 rolls/2 at a time. They looked fine until they were dry and I used a loupe.

I think Sandy got it right –VOODOO!

[rdenney]

Do you use an acid stop bath? Are you sure it is mixed properly?

I've had terrible grain reticulation that resulted from too strong a stop-bath solution.

Rick "just in case" Denney

[Richard Wasserman]

Do you use an acid stop bath? Are you sure it is mixed properly?

I've had terrible grain reticulation that resulted from too strong a stop-bath solution.

Rick "just in case" Denney


No stop bath, plain water rinse. Points for creativity!

[Jay DeFehr]

That sucks, Richard. No matter how many stories of ruined film I read, each one pains me. They say voodoo only works if you believe in it. So.........?

[Richard Wasserman]

That sucks, Richard. No matter how many stories of ruined film I read, each one pains me. They say voodoo only works if you believe in it. So.........?



I'm not a believer, but I can't think of any other explanation. I'm afraid to look in my closet though,in fear of finding a shrunken head.

[mdm]

Dont look in the mirror then. (Sorry, that was rude but I could not resist)

I am shure your problems will resolve themselves soon enough. I've had a few problems myself, caused by mixing Pyrocat MC in engine coolant instead of glycol.


I'm not a believer, but I can't think of any other explanation. I'm afraid to look in my closet though,in fear of finding a shrunken head.

[Curt]

I have seven rolls of Acros 100 that I was going to process in Pyrocat HD, ??????? do I do? Go with Rodinal? I know the temperature here is getting cold and a container on the lower shelf is colder than one on a higher shelf in the darkroom. There is no 'one' room temperature in my darkroom this time of year.

[IanG]

Rodinal contains Hydroxide and that raises the potential for excessive grain as it softens the emulsion more than carbonate.

I don't use Acros very often but when I do I use Pyrocat HD and with no problems what so ever, and that's the same for other people as well.

Richard's case here is an unusual glitch, somethings gone awry. It may be he needs to monitor his water temperature, that the controller's not as stable as it has been in the past.

It's worth remembering that modern films like Acros and Tmax 100 & 400 have an inherent fine grain and so choice of developer has far less effect on grain size unlike older emulsions like Plus-X or FP4.

Grain clumping/micro reticulation is not a specific developer issue although high pH doesn't help, I've seen this with Xtol, and a it's small number of films that are more prone than others.

My house in the UK has no central heating so temperatures drop significantly where I process in the winter but I've not found ambient temperature to be an issue with any developer and in particular Pyrocat HD which is now the only film developer I'm using.

Ian

[Richard Wasserman]

I developed a test roll of TMY in a fresh batch of Pyrocat HD and it is fine. I don't know, and probably never will, what went wrong with the previous film. At least all is good now.

[Jan Pedersen]

Good that you managed to get it working.
Could it be that you by mistake have grabbed a different component when you mixed the last batch?

[Jay DeFehr]

What is life without a little mystery? I'm glad the anomaly has passed, and you're back to business as usual. Still, a little chalk across your threshold might be justified.

[Curt]

That's good new but not knowing and having ruined film is a poor consolation. Thanks for the post on this.