PDA

View Full Version : Shopping advice (4x5) please



Bob Kerner
27-Oct-2010, 17:02
I'm beginning my search for a 4x5 field camera. I plan to use it for a little bit of everything, landscapes, portraits etc. Not architecture, but just about anything else. Expect to use glass in the 120 to 300mm plus range. I've been looking at the stats for a number of used cameras and 300mm seems to be a pretty common maximum bellows extension, which would preclude my going past 300, as I understand it.

Three options keep popping up on my radar:

1. Used Wista or Wisner. The Wisners tend to have bellows extensions of greater than 300mm, which could be useful. I'm concerned that the company is out of business and it will be impossible to get parts/repair should it be necessary. Should I let that drive my decision? Are they reliable cameras?

2) New Shen Hao. Max bellows is 300mm, though I understand that it could go a little longer with some contortions of the front standard etc. For the price of a used camera, I'd be getting a brand new one. Company still in business for parts and repair. Dealer support. I cannot tell from any pictures on dealer sites whether these cameras have bubble levels built into them ( a feature I like).

3) Speed or Crown. I almost made an offer on the one Frank had up last night. People seem to either love or hate it as an entry level 4x5 because of the limited movements. I'm not movement-obsessed but don't want to be limited either. I really never plan to hand hold a 4x5. Indifferent about the RF capabilities.

I'm leaning toward the Wisner. There are several kicking around, including some owned by members here, and they are available now. But I'd like some input from those who've made this decision before me.

Thank you in advance
Bob

Jack Dahlgren
27-Oct-2010, 17:43
I've got a speed graphic and wouldn't recommend it that highly unless you are planning to handhold which is something you are ruling out.

I would add toyo and chamonix to your list.

Sirius Glass
27-Oct-2010, 17:45
I bought a Pacemaker Speed Graphic because it can be used hand held or as a view camera. I used on years ago in high school so I knew I would use it hand held. As I use it as a view camera, I am learning. Later, if I want, I can consider something like you choice 1 or 2 and still keep the Speed for hand held work.

Steve

Peter De Smidt
27-Oct-2010, 17:56
A used Walker 4x5 might work. I have a toyo 45AX, and I regularly use a 300mm on it. To go longer, though, you'd need one of the back extensions, which unfortunately are ridiculously expensive.

falth j
27-Oct-2010, 18:23
Perhaps, you could be happy with a monorail?

They are plentiful, some are light enough to break down and backpack with, and most have plenty of parts available on the internet, and not the least of which, they tend to be fairly cheap.

Vaughn
27-Oct-2010, 19:10
How about a Deardorff Special? Actually a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 revolving back. http://deardorffcameras.0catch.com/V4-V5_FS/V4_V5fs.htm

I use to use one (actually a copy of one). A bit extra weight, but 22" of bellows -- over 550mm. All the movements you need...and slap on a 5x7 back and you are ready to jump up in format! (That is what I eventually did.)

Parts and repair of wooden field cameras -- sometimes just a matter of finding a skilled woodworker/cabinetmaker, or the services of someone like Richard Ritter...or Grimes for lens related issues.

Vaughn

Wayne Crider
27-Oct-2010, 19:14
Bob, since your on Long Island, there's got to be someplace in Manhattan to see and handle some different models. It's really the best way to go.

Frank Petronio
27-Oct-2010, 21:12
You should at least try some cameras made of metal. I think a lot of idealists get pretty wooden camera toys to start with and think they are the way things should be because that's all they know.

I also think learning how to use movements is much easier with a traditional monorail, even if they are ugly/bulkier. They are so cheap you could rationalize having both - Calumets are only $100, Sinar Fs are only $300.

I like to think of Crowns as not even having movements, you just use them like a medium format camera on steroids. They have their place but if you are struggling with using movements, they aren't going to work for you.

Since there are so few good camera shops that stock view cameras, you could just buy and sell a few online, like on this forum. If you have some common sense and do your homework, you pretty much break even and that way you can give all the major kinds a spin.

If I were really serious and wanted to learn the most, then I'd start with a $300 Sinar F; a $500 Shen-Hao or Wista DX; a $300 Crown; maybe a $6-700 Toyo A, Wista VX, or old Technika. Using these would answer all your camera questions so you can decide which is best for you. Then you can unload the extras and maybe could upgrade within the category, like from a cheap Sinar F to a nicer Norma or P2.

Bruce Barlow
28-Oct-2010, 03:36
If you want to use 300mm, you need more than 300mm of bellows, unless you're happy focusing only at infinity. That rules out Wistas, Tachiharas, and Osakas.

You might look for a used Zone VI, plenty of bellows, better-built than Wisners, while basically the same design. eBlecch has a boatload right now. MidWest and/or Badger are probably good, reliable sources, too. It's all the camera you'll ever need.

Richard Ritter makes a nice living repairing Wisners, and less often, Zone VIs. He either has parts, or makes them at need. He also has lensboards. No worries on service.

ljsegil
28-Oct-2010, 03:49
Suggest you might consider the cameras from Keith Canham, either traditional or metal might suit your needs. I use the traditional models, one doubles as a 4x5/5x7 with 26" of bellows, expanding your lens choices well beyond 300mm, and my second Canham traditional is his 8x10 model (36" bellows) which I also use with a 4x10 reducing back (and it can in fact also take the 4x5 and 5x7 backs with a simple adapter, giving all your common formats with a single camera. 6x17cm Panos are also available with his excellent roll film holder for the 5x7 back). Obviously, I like his cameras very much. They are very well constructed, provide abundant movements with simple controls, the flexibility is great, Keith's support is top-notch, and their weight is not prohibitive for use as a field camera.
I have no connection with Keith Canham, other than that of a very satisfied user.
Larry

MIke Sherck
28-Oct-2010, 06:04
I use an older Zone VI wooden 4x5; similar to Wisner. I've also had a Wisner, in the past, and it was a fine camera. So is the Zone VI but when you buy a Zone VI you have to make sure which model it is: some Zone VI cameras are rebadged Wistas or Tachiharas and have shorter bellows. I believe that new Zone Vi cameras from Calumet have longer bellows still.

There are also Deardorff 4x5 Specials, as has been pointed out, but well used you'll likely pay what a new or nearly new Wisner would cost you. I know some folks who swear by them. I know other who swear at them; it's a very personal thing for any camera, I suppose. There are any number of older and odd-ball cameras you may stumble over, and one way to get longer bellows for a 4x5 camera is to buy a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 back. One often sees these in old Ansco or B&J wooden "tailboard" cameras, for example. There's a reason they're often inexpensive. :) There are also new, expensive options: Ebony cameras are superb, as are Lotus, and both still come, I believe, in long-bellows models. One can occasionally find a used Walker, Canham, etc. and by most reports they're worth it if not exactly inexpensive. Most of the Japanese and Chinese cameras are bellows-challenged so far as I know: one or two of them might offer 14" by cantilevering the front standard outward but that's a bit fragile, won't hold a heavy lens very securely, and still doesn't help if you don't have telephoto lenses like the Nikon T stuff.

Monorails are a valid suggestion: many of them, particularly older ones, won't easily go into a backpack but I never cared about that and liked almost everything about my old Calumet CC-400 except the friction focusing arrangement. My 8x10 is still a monorail, an old B&J, and although it isn't as portable as a folding field camera, I'm not quite as portable as I used to be, either. Older monorails can be found quite cheaply and you ought to be able to get one off of Ebay for less than $100 if you're patient. If you don't like it you can't lose much reselling it and you may find that it's a good choice for you. At the least it will make you a more informed consumer and you'll have a better idea of what features you like and don't like when you're shopping for your next camera.

Finally, you could by Tele lenses, which require shorter bellows than their focal length, and get by with a less expensive camera with shorter bellows. There are other trade-offs, of course, but its your choice.

If I had to make a recommendation, I'd say look for a decent used triple-extension Zone VI. They're usually less expensive than Wisner cameras, have pretty much the same specifications, and would be a good first 4x5 that might be good enough to last you for life. Don't forget to call some of the faithful retailers: Jim at Midwest Photo, KEH, and maybe Badger. I've gotten excellent service and price from Jim at Midwest Photo (www.mpex.com) in the past, which is why I list him first, but the others have excellent reputations, too. Were I considerably wealthier than I am, I'd look for a Canham or a new Ebony.

Mike

Bob Salomon
28-Oct-2010, 06:09
If you want to use 300mm, you need more than 300mm of bellows, unless you're happy focusing only at infinity. That rules out Wistas, Tachiharas, and Osakas.

You might look for a used Zone VI, plenty of bellows, better-built than Wisners, while basically the same design. eBlecch has a boatload right now. MidWest and/or Badger are probably good, reliable sources, too. It's all the camera you'll ever need.

Richard Ritter makes a nice living repairing Wisners, and less often, Zone VIs. He either has parts, or makes them at need. He also has lensboards. No worries on service.

Unless you buy an extension bed and bellows for the Wista.

Ron Marshall
28-Oct-2010, 06:15
There is also the option of a "Top Hat" extended lensboard when there is insufficient bellows extension.

Jack Dahlgren
28-Oct-2010, 07:44
Suggest you might consider the cameras from Keith Canham, either traditional or metal might suit your needs. I use the traditional models, one doubles as a 4x5/5x7 with 26" of bellows, expanding your lens choices well beyond 300mm, and my second Canham traditional is his 8x10 model (36" bellows) which I also use with a 4x10 reducing back (and it can in fact also take the 4x5 and 5x7 backs with a simple adapter, giving all your common formats with a single camera. 6x17cm Panos are also available with his excellent roll film holder for the 5x7 back). Obviously, I like his cameras very much. They are very well constructed, provide abundant movements with simple controls, the flexibility is great, Keith's support is top-notch, and their weight is not prohibitive for use as a field camera.
I have no connection with Keith Canham, other than that of a very satisfied user.
Larry

They are also ten times the cost of some of the cameras on his list.

I continue to believe that for most people entering large format that they are best off purchasing a used camera of low to moderate price. Large format is one of those things that you may or may not continue with, so starter equipment should be purchased / borrowed with resale value firmly in mind.

Bob Kerner
28-Oct-2010, 13:22
Lots of thoughtful advice, thank you.

A few have mentioned monorail but the be honest it doesn't really appeal to me from a portability standpoint or even "I can't wait to use my camera" coolness factor standpoint. Canhams, Ebonys etc are fine works of craftsmanship but waaay to expensive to begin with.

A couple of folks mentioned Zone VI which I did not consider. Thank you. How do I tell the models apart, so that I get one with "plenty of bellows" versus some other model? I checked the Ebay and can't make sense of what's a legitimate Zone VI versus Wista; late model versus new. I'd appreciate some education on the various pedigrees. For example Mike refers to "new" Z6s from Calumet, but doesn't he mean "late model" since calumet only sells Toyo and Sinar and Cambo now?

I agree with Jack. I'm looking to buy used wherever possible.

Keep the suggestions coming.

MIke Sherck
28-Oct-2010, 17:10
Lots of thoughtful advice, thank you.

A few have mentioned monorail but the be honest it doesn't really appeal to me from a portability standpoint or even "I can't wait to use my camera" coolness factor standpoint. Canhams, Ebonys etc are fine works of craftsmanship but waaay to expensive to begin with.

A couple of folks mentioned Zone VI which I did not consider. Thank you. How do I tell the models apart, so that I get one with "plenty of bellows" versus some other model? I checked the Ebay and can't make sense of what's a legitimate Zone VI versus Wista; late model versus new. I'd appreciate some education on the various pedigrees. For example Mike refers to "new" Z6s from Calumet, but doesn't he mean "late model" since calumet only sells Toyo and Sinar and Cambo now?

I agree with Jack. I'm looking to buy used wherever possible.

Keep the suggestions coming.

Zone VI cameras with longer extension have two knobs along the bed, to extend the bed outward. That makes them "triple extension" and bellows vary from 16" to 22" or so, depending on the model. Cameras with only one knob along the bed (one knob on each side,) are only "double extension" and bellows extension is limited to 12" or so.

The first picture shows an example of a late triple-extension Zone VI with two knobs. The second is of a double-extension model, with only one knob (near the front of the camera) to extend it out (these are the knobs used for focusing.) On a double extension camera, rotating the knob moves the front standard back and forth, to focus. On a triple extension camera the forward knob moves the front standard back and forth, the rear knob moves the rear standard. I hope that's clear!

I haven't visited Calumet's web site for a couple of years or so, so if they've discontinued the Zone VI cameras that saddens me.

Mike

Bob Kerner
28-Oct-2010, 18:26
Thanks for the pictures, Mike. I spent some time reviewing the lengthy history of Zone VI/Wista/ Tachihara/ Wisner/Calumet. No wonder I couldn't tell one model from the other. People seem to either love or hate them, depending on which era they were made.

AgentX
29-Oct-2010, 15:35
Toyo field is a great all-purpose camera. Pretty precise, rugged, not too terribly heavy...not too expensive if you find a good deal. I'm guessing a Wista metal field is similar. Bellows limitations might not meet your needs, but if you regularly want to use a 4x5 with long bellows extensions, perhaps a monorail is where you want to be.

Wayne Crider
30-Oct-2010, 07:40
I sincerely believe that for the price and accessory's the Shen Hao is pretty dam good for a starter camera. It may not be the lightest you'll find, but I've read alot of good about it overall, and I have seen an early model when out with a group about 5 years back. Additionally, if this whole experience doesn't work out for you, their a pretty easy resale from what I've seen. Used ones pop up here every once in awhile.
I will note that a buddy of mine use to shoot Tachihara's, and a told me at one point that the early models were not as stiff as the later ones. He wound up shooting Wista's.

R Mann
30-Oct-2010, 08:36
Don't wait, just get something and start using it. You can waste a lot of time and effort researching the opinions of others when what you really need to do is get something into your hands. In my opinion, It probably doesn't matter because you will sell it soon anyway. Either because you will find large format is not your thing, or if it is - you will want/like/ or lust for something different.

The biggest expense will be in the lens set, holders, enlarger, scanner, film, and all the other stuff.

The good news is that most cameras will hold their value in the short term, so you should just consider the first camera a rental from the internet. If you were to poll the members here, I doubt very many of them have stayed with their first camera selection.

Bob Kerner
30-Oct-2010, 09:39
Absolutely agree. I'm hunting down a Wisner Traditional-since that's what I had in 91 when I first tried LF. I'm familiar with the mechanics and I'd prefer a longer bellows. I have a few options in my sights. Now onto the lens, which I expect to be much easier decision since 210mms are pretty much everywhere at a good price.

How difficult is it to mount the lens to the lensboard? I'll need a spanner, right?


Don't wait, just get something and start using it. You can waste a lot of time and effort researching the opinions of others when what you really need to do is get something into your hands. In my opinion, It probably doesn't matter because you will sell it soon anyway. Either because you will find large format is not your thing, or if it is - you will want/like/ or lust for something different.

The biggest expense will be in the lens set, holders, enlarger, scanner, film, and all the other stuff.

The good news is that most cameras will hold their value in the short term, so you should just consider the first camera a rental from the internet. If you were to poll the members here, I doubt very many of them have stayed with their first camera selection.

Bob Kerner
30-Oct-2010, 10:09
Disregard last question about lens board. A 10 second search found plenty of information.

Bob Kerner
1-Nov-2010, 13:33
I wanted to thank everyone for their advice. I'm waiting on a Wisner Traditional from Midwest, which had one at a very reasonable price and dealing with Jim was a pleasure. In the end, I wanted the extra bellows and I'm familiar with the camera.

I wish I had this resource (the forum) in 1991, when I first tried LF I can't tell you how many people contacted me with leads on cameras and/or offers to go out and make pictures to get familiar with the mechanics. Had I had this resource in '91 I probably would not have abandoned the format.

Rider
1-Nov-2010, 18:28
Congrats. I got my own Wisner Traditional right here from a forum member. I love it.

wskmosaic
2-Nov-2010, 09:51
Bob:
I've got a 4X4 Pre Anniversary speed graphic with a light-tight bellows, straight track and all that seems to do everything you want to do except, possibly, go all the way to 300. I've used the camera for landscape stuff for some years and have been very pleased with the way it works.

I've got a 250 Ross Homocentric in barrel that works pretty well with this graphic's fully functional focal plane shutter. I don't know if it will extend much beyond that, but I can move the 250 forward some to get shorter focus. Maybe it will go to 300.

I've timed the FP shutter, and it's not bad, with settings for most normal metering from 1/15 to 1/500. I've rejiggered the eyeshade over the ground glass so I could use it as a tripod-mounted field camera under a darkcloth. I'd like to sell it, and have stuff to go with it, including a rock-solid tripod, two other lenses--a normal and a 90 mm, film holders (hard to get for this camera) fresh film and the like. If you care, drop me a note.
Warren

Brian Ellis
2-Nov-2010, 10:09
If you want to use 300mm, you need more than 300mm of bellows, unless you're happy focusing only at infinity. That rules out Wistas, Tachiharas, and Osakas.

You might look for a used Zone VI, plenty of bellows, better-built than Wisners, while basically the same design. eBlecch has a boatload right now. MidWest and/or Badger are probably good, reliable sources, too. It's all the camera you'll ever need.

Richard Ritter makes a nice living repairing Wisners, and less often, Zone VIs. He either has parts, or makes them at need. He also has lensboards. No worries on service.

Actually a 300mm lens is very usable on a Tachihara. I used one on the two Tachiharas I owned. Tachiharas have a 320 inch or so bellows and you can focus a 300mm lens to about 10-12 feet IIRC, which for me was plenty close for a 300mm lens.

Brian Ellis
2-Nov-2010, 10:15
Wisners are great buys right now IMHO. A lot of people seem to be shying away from them because the company is out of business but as Bruce Barlow explained, that isn't really a major problem.

I recently sold a pristine 5x7 Wisner with a 4x5 reducing back, bag bellows, 7 Wisner lens boards, and some other accessories for a friend on ebay (after offering it here and getting no takers) and the whole thing went for $850. This was about $3,500 worth of gear when new. You should be able to pick up a 4x5 Wisner Tech Field for about the same price. The only problem with Wisners is that the long 24" or so bellows comes with a price - the need for a bag bellows with a lens in the 90mm or shorter range because of all that bellows material that needs to be scrunched up with shorter lenses.

Bob Kerner
2-Nov-2010, 11:20
Wisners are great buys right now IMHO. A lot of people seem to be shying away from them because the company is out of business but as Bruce Barlow explained, that isn't really a major problem.

I recently sold a pristine 5x7 Wisner with a 4x5 reducing back, bag bellows, 7 Wisner lens boards, and some other accessories for a friend on ebay (after offering it here and getting no takers) and the whole thing went for $850. This was about $3,500 worth of gear when new. You should be able to pick up a 4x5 Wisner Tech Field for about the same price. The only problem with Wisners is that the long 24" or so bellows comes with a price - the need for a bag bellows with a lens in the 90mm or shorter range because of all that bellows material that needs to be scrunched up with shorter lenses.

Yes, there's quite a few right now at some of the common used-gear sellers and elsewhere. I got a good buy, I think, but I'll know tomorrow when it arrives. At the end of the day, the fact the company is gone didn't really sway me; look at all the Speeds and Crowns being used lately and they haven't been made in decades either.
I don't plan on going wider than 90 and, if I do, I'm sure there are some bag bellows kicking around.

John Jarosz
2-Nov-2010, 11:39
There are tele lenses. Some of them have quirks or minimal coverage. The tele Nikkors are extremely good. So you can sidestep some of the bellows draw issue if you choose.

john

aluncrockford
2-Nov-2010, 15:22
you have not mentioned what your budget is, but if you want one of the finest 5/4 field cameras ever made then teamwork in the uk are selling one, go to used equipment then scroll down to Gandolfi Traditional , this camera is truly as good as it gets.

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/

Bob Kerner
2-Nov-2010, 15:27
See post #23. I've chosen a camera. Thank you all for your help.

Two23
2-Nov-2010, 20:44
I have the Shen Hao 4x5 and love it to death. Easy to get lensboards/accessories, solidly buillt, great value, and very pretty too!


Kent in SD

Frank Petronio
2-Nov-2010, 21:17
See post #23. I've chosen a camera. Thank you all for your help.

That's irrelevant and rude, this thread will still be going for another 6-7 years ;-)

Sharkonwheels
2-Nov-2010, 21:58
Good info from all - thanks for sharing.

I'm in a similar boat. Decided I want to step up from 6x7/120/2x3 to a 4x5 field or technical.

Been looking around, and have sort of decided on a Toyo 45AII or a Wista DXIII from Midwest or Keh.

Now to unload the Graflex 2x3 cameras and the boatload of accessories...

Tony

Bob Kerner
3-Nov-2010, 07:59
That's irrelevant and rude, this thread will still be going for another 6-7 years ;-)

I certainly don't mean to offend anyone! I just didn't want people to spend their time helping me when I'm beyond help at this point.

Tony, Jim at Midwest was very helpful and I'd certainly use them again. One thing I liked was that they have a return policy should I find anything wrong with the camera. I ordered Monday and it arrived this morning.

John Jarosz
3-Nov-2010, 08:08
he was kidding.... (I think....)

Bob Kerner
3-Nov-2010, 08:21
he was kidding.... (I think....)

Yes, I think so too but I wanted to cover all the bases in case I violated a community norm.

Sirius Glass
3-Nov-2010, 15:39
I certainly don't mean to offend anyone! I just didn't want people to spend their time helping me when I'm beyond help at this point.

Tony, Jim at Midwest was very helpful and I'd certainly use them again. One thing I liked was that they have a return policy should I find anything wrong with the camera. I ordered Monday and it arrived this morning.

Bob, if you check you leg length, you will find that one leg is longer than the other. He probably left an imprint of his finger on your ankle when he pulled your leg. ROTFLMAO!

Steve