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rdenney
25-Oct-2010, 11:24
While at Glazer's last week in Seattle, I had the opportunity to actually lay hands on some Jobo tanks and reels, and it sparked an interest I'd hoped was dead. When I last processed sheet film, I did it in deep tanks using hangers, but in those days I had a real darkroom.

I'm sort-of pondering what the possibilities might be if I used a daylight tank. But the only daylight tank available back in the day was the Yankee, which was worthless.

But I see a lot of discussion around Jobo tanks, and having held one in my hands, think it's probably a pretty good alternative. But I'm getting lost in the numbering and what it all means.

I looked at a short tank that would hold a single 2509n reel (which seems to be the standard 4x5 reel). The tank was, I think, a 2521, which was just tall enough to hold that one reel. Can that combination be used for inversion, like an old Nikor or Paterson tank? If not, can it be rolled? How many sheets does that reel hold? Can the reel be loaded wet? In a changing tent?

Rick "utterly unfamiliar with the Jobo line and appreciating a primer" Denney

gari beet
25-Oct-2010, 11:45
Hi Rick, are you processing B/W? I am assuming so with reference to the tanks.
I have this setup, among others, for developing E6. tThe reels absolutely have to be dry or the film just sticks and won't load but you can get away with the drums being a little wet/damp. Loading is fine, the problem is that if you are loading in a tent or bag everything else risks getting wet. I load in a bag when on the road if I am carrying my Duolab with me, no problems.
As for inversion, I don't do it but I can't see why not, a few caviats, it takes alot chemistry to fill, around 600ml off the top of my head(I am away from home so can't check) so for colour it would be very expensive to do it this way, not to mention the difficulties of tem control. Other than that I see no real issue( boom boom!!).
If you are doing colour a processor is the way to go.
Having used Jobo for a few years I am very happy with the stuff, I actually process halfplate as single sheets in an old print drum which I roll by hand in a tempered tub.

Hope this helps.
Gari

rdenney
25-Oct-2010, 13:31
Hi Rick, are you processing B/W? I am assuming so with reference to the tanks.

Yes, correct assumption. I should have said so and didn't.

When I did it before, I rather came to the conclusion that temp control was as important for black and white as for color, except that you can use room temperature (and that's a big exception, of course). The thermal mass of the larger amount of liquid will help there.

I don't see myself in production mode, so waiting for the reel to dry is probably okay. But then one curiosity--can you stack negatives in the reel back to back?

Did I get the product numbers right? Are there better choices in their line?

Rick "who will have little enough volume to not worry too much about being wasteful" Denney

Brian C. Miller
25-Oct-2010, 13:44
I have the two-reel tank that takes the 2509N reels. I have only used it with a Jobo machine. For using it with inversion, I would first place the reel in the tank, and fill up the tank so it covers the reel. Then pour that off into a beaker and measure the actual level. I think the chemistry quatities are for rotation. You'll also need a cap for the tank, too, otherwise you'll have chemistry coming out.

domaz
25-Oct-2010, 13:59
The reels absolutely have to be dry or the film just sticks and won't load but you can get away with the drums being a little wet/damp. Loading is fine, the problem is that if you are loading in a tent or bag everything else risks getting wet.

The 2509n reels load just fine wet. Not dripping wet- but you don't have to be reiligous about getting them dry before loading like you do with rollfilm reels. I load the reels by hand though- maybe loading with the loader is a different story. I actually pull the film from the front and bend it from the back to get it to load in the channels in the reel.

Sal Santamaura
25-Oct-2010, 14:00
...I looked at a short tank that would hold a single 2509n reel (which seems to be the standard 4x5 reel). The tank was, I think, a 2521, which was just tall enough to hold that one reel. Can that combination be used for inversion, like an old Nikor or Paterson tank?...


...As for inversion, I don't do it but I can't see why not, a few caviats, it takes alot chemistry to fill, around 600ml off the top of my head...Inversion processing of up to 6 sheets of 4x5 in a 2521 tank with 2509n reel requires 1500 ml. It's OK if you're using a highly dilute developer, paying attention of course to the minimum active developer needed per film area. After development, you could transition to rolling for rinse/stop and fix, using much less liquid. It takes 270 ml to cover the sheets with that approach, but, again, fixer capacity must be considered, so more volume could be needed.


...Did I get the product numbers right? Are there better choices in their line?...Yes, those are the correct numbers. In my opinion, however, you'd be better off getting a 3006 Expert drum, 1509 roller base and transmission fluid funnel. Unless you're an inversion acolyte, the small developer volume and extremely even results from Expert drums are probably worth the increased cost. More aerobic too. :)

Sal Santamaura
25-Oct-2010, 14:07
I have the two-reel tank that takes the 2509N reels....For using it with inversion, I would first place the reel in the tank, and fill up the tank so it covers the reel. Then pour that off into a beaker and measure the actual level...That only works for the 2523. With a 2509n in the 2521, the top of the reel is above the open tank's top. Without the cap attached it will not hold enough liquid to cover the reel. Unless one has a clear cap, which Jobo never offered for sale ( ;) ),it's impossible to see what volume just covers the reel. I've determined by trial and error that 1500ml is optimum.

seabird
25-Oct-2010, 14:15
Rick,

For my B&W processing I use the 2551 tank which holds 2 x 2509n reels. (This is the next size up from the 2521).

I only use rotary development and have never tried inversion - I suspect the amount of developing solution required with the 2551 would make the tank uncomfortably heavy.

I dont use a Jobo processor but manually rotate by hand in a water bath using a home-made rotary base (looks like an upside down skateboard). As you say, the thermal mass of the liquid both inside and outside the tank keeps temperatures within bounds for my maximum 10-mins processing times.

Rotation speed is manually judged - a potential weakness of my system. I use Rodinal 1+50 which is sensitive to agitation, but still seem to get consistent enough negatives for my purposes (YMMV).

Each 2509n reel can physically hold 6 sheets of 4x5. Somewhere in the literature Jobo recommended 4 sheets per reel for maximum quality. Others do 6 sheets per reel without problems. YMMV. FWIW I limit myself to 4 sheets per reel (leaving the middle slots empty) for a total of 8 sheets per run (given 2 reels). If I have less than 8 sheets to develop then I load the "empty" slots with already-processed negatives so as not to disrupt solution flows inside the tank (good to know those "mistakes" came in useful for something :) ). I wouldn't recommend loading sheets back to back.

I load reels in a darkened closet or, at a pinch, in a large changing bag - but not much wiggle room in the latter. There is a fancy loader you can use, but I just do it by feel. IMO its easier than loading 120 film onto a paterson reel.

Two other things to be aware of:

1. The 2509n has two little plastic "wings" that distinguish it from the older 2509. They apparently help with solution flow patterns inside the tank. Some folks use the reels successfully without them. YMMV.

2. There are two types of lid: cogged and rubber capped (no cog). IIRC, The former are designed for the Jobo machines and are denoted by a 3 in the last digit of the tank number e.g. 2553 = 2550 series tank with cogged lid, while 2551 = 2500 series tank with a rubber capped lid.

I've never tried tray/slosher/dunk-tank/orbital deveopment with 4x5 so cant really comment on the relative merits of each. But I CAN say that I am pefectly happy with my Jobo. The things I like most are: daylight processing (once loaded); ease of use (no mess); quality and consistency of results; economical use of developer (with Rodinal anyway).

Hope this helps.

Brian C. Miller
25-Oct-2010, 14:38
Rick, since you are in my local area, would you like to borrow tanks, reels, and loader? I've been using a 3006 expert drum, and the stuff has been idle for a while.

Sal Santamaura
25-Oct-2010, 16:48
That only works for the 2523...


...For my B&W processing I use the 2551 tank which holds 2 x 2509n reels. (This is the next size up from the 2521)...Oops, thanks for the correction Carey. My "that only works for" comment was intended to refer to the 2551, not 2523.

Greg_Thomas
25-Oct-2010, 17:48
Thanks for all the info in this thread. I, too, have a 2509N reel and a 2521 tank that I have not used yet.

I have seen some references to using it for continuous inversion with less than the 1.5 liters required to fill the tank.

Has anyone here done this method?

jeroldharter
25-Oct-2010, 19:23
Carey covered it well.

The Expert drums are probably nicer than using the reels, but they are going for $400-500 now. Like tulips. So the reels are much less expensive and still available new from Calumet. They are sometimes out of stock bet they eventually arrive. The reels are easy to load, especially with the loading device. (I am now using an ATN Viper night vision monocular which is a dream for handling film.)

the Jobo drum numbers are a boggle. But you can use a variety of 2000 series drums as long as you have the center post which prevents the reels from rotating inside the drum and the cog lid. You cannot use the cog lid with an attached cup - those are for print drums. You can easily do 3 reels at a time for up to 18 sheets a run with the 2509N reels. That would take 2 runs with a 3010 and 3 runs with a 3006. The expert drums are more foolproof, but bigger, more expensive, and somewhat less capacity/versatility. I use both with good results.

photobymike
26-Oct-2010, 12:09
I have used Jobo tanks for years. I thought everybody did. I use a Photo Therm tray to "float the tank" at temp for color film. I tried a Jobo CPE processor, but found it to cheaply built for the bulk of the film I process. I have tried other ways but found them messy or to labor intensive. The only problem is, that the secret of Jobo tanks is out of the bag. Prices on used tanks is triple what is used to be on ebay.

jeroldharter
26-Oct-2010, 18:24
... I use a Photo Therm tray to "float the tank" at temp for color film...

Could you describe and/or post a picture of that?

Thanks.

Bruce Watson
26-Oct-2010, 19:26
I've tried various methods in a quest for even development -- from tray processing to Jobo Expert tanks. Far and away, the Jobo Expert tanks are the easiest to use and give the best results. I'm talking perfectly smooth and even skies, every time. Which is what I'm after.

Is it worth the price? Depends on what you value. Me? I find I value having the process sufficiently under control that I don't have to worry about it much -- I'd rather spend my time worrying about the art than the craft. And the Jobo expert tanks let me do that. So I was perfectly willing to pay the price.

I've looked at the old Nikkor stainless steel tanks. They look like a good possibility -- inversion agitation just like the old 35mm days. Although how well that works with a sheet of film that's 15x bigger is a question. But you can load the thing in a closet, and process in a bathroom in full daylight. When I was thinking of processing film on the road, this is where I was heading. But I never actually went down that path.

If you want a first class system, a Jobo 3010 tank on a Jobo CPP-2 processor (the 3010 won't fit on a CPE-2, but will work on a CPA-2 IIRC) is *really* hard to beat. Accurate, repeatable, and can easily work in a bathroom setting with a few feet of counter space. That's what I use, and TMY-2 in XTOL 1:3 or 1:1 is just scary good like this. Flawless.

venchka
27-Oct-2010, 06:30
Rick,
Jobo sold the large tank under two numbers: 2551/2553. Same tank. Different Jobo drive configuration. If you are rolling by hand (ugh) or on a Uniroller/Beseler motor base (Yeah!) then either tank will work. Side benefit: the 2551/2553 twins will also hold roll film reels. 5 @ 35mm or 3 @ 120. One more benefit of the rollfilm reels: You can load 2 rolls of 120 end to end or 1 roll of 220 on each reel. I use a lid with the built in cog on my 2553 tank.
Good luck.

rdenney
28-Oct-2010, 10:54
Rick, since you are in my local area, would you like to borrow tanks, reels, and loader? I've been using a 3006 expert drum, and the stuff has been idle for a while.

Actually, I'm not in your area, even though I was there long enough last week for a trip to Glazer's. I'm on the other end of the country, in northern Virginia.

And I'm just researching it at this point. I've been consumed this year by a new job and by some snow-damage-induced home remodeling that has eaten up all my free time. But when I saw those tanks and chemicals at Glazer's, I had that feeling in the pit of my stomach. Hence, research. But I'm not ready for the plunge just yet.

Thank you for the offer--it is very generous of you.

Rick "appreciating all the responses" Denney

rdenney
28-Oct-2010, 16:09
I've looked at the old Nikkor stainless steel tanks. They look like a good possibility -- inversion agitation just like the old 35mm days. Although how well that works with a sheet of film that's 15x bigger is a question. But you can load the thing in a closet, and process in a bathroom in full daylight. When I was thinking of processing film on the road, this is where I was heading. But I never actually went down that path.

I have no shortage of experience with the Nikor (one "k") tanks, both with the steel lids (which leak) and with the plastic lids (which do not leak). They are fine for roll film and I have never had a problem loading the reels. But they are made for roll film, not sheet film. And for good temperature control, they are highly heat-conductive and must be kept submerged in a temperature control bath except during the actual agitation inversion.

And I have played with the Paterson tanks, which were pretty good for small format. But I greatly prefer the steel reels for roll film--they are much easier to load (especially when wet) than the "walking" process of plastic reels.

I also have very ancient experience with Unicolor reels and drums--didn't like the reels but did like the (insulated) drums and rollers. I did color with those with good results (220 Vericolor Type S, to let you know how long ago this was, heh).

I had expected that 4x5 sheets were short enough and stiff enough to allow just pushing them onto a reel like the 2509n.

The small Jobo tank (2551) may not be long enough to sit on any roller like the Unicolor or Cibachrome, which is why I was considering inversion. The larger tank might be worth getting just to allow that. Also, six negatives per batch might be a bit constraining.

I would probably not use a highly dilute developer like Rodinal, but perhaps something more like HC-110 (if it's even still available). I used to use Rodinal for very thin emulsion small-format films like Panatomic-X, but I don't really intend to buy film with that tight a grain structure. Probably something more like FP4+. I have a lot of experience with FP4 from the old days, though I don't expect to remember much of it.

Oh, forgot to mention: No force on earth will have me spending many hundreds of dollars for a fancier drum or an automated processor. And no force on earth will compel redheaded property-manager approval for using up any bathroom counter space for longer than the task at hand. I can do the processing in the basement, but there is very little counter space down there--just enough for beakers of chemicals.

Rick "who thinks about things a long time" Denney

Brian C. Miller
30-Oct-2010, 12:55
Hand-rolling the tanks isn't a big deal. All you need is a roller base of some sort, which can casters mounted on a plank.

Or you could go with the CombiPlan. Or how about DIY BTZS tubes?

Yeah, I know what you mean about working within a small space. I used to live in an 18ft travel trailer, and never did sheet development in it, only roll film. I used Polaroid and ReadyLoads, and my film was developed at Ivey. And now no more Ivey, but I have decent processing equipment now.

Andrzej Maciejewski
31-Oct-2010, 04:45
I have used 2500 Jobo for my B+W negs for years.
I wonder if anyone else had similar problem with top part of neg getting smudged a bit especially on these images with clear gray sky. It is underdeveloped smudge that goes along the longer edge. It seems that the chemicals are not distributed properly. I use Rodinal 1:100 and hand roll the tank.
Would Jobo processor help? Or 3000 series tank? Or maybe different rotation?

jeroldharter
31-Oct-2010, 06:02
I have used 2500 Jobo for my B+W negs for years.
I wonder if anyone else had similar problem with top part of neg getting smudged a bit especially on these images with clear gray sky. It is underdeveloped smudge that goes along the longer edge. It seems that the chemicals are not distributed properly. I use Rodinal 1:100 and hand roll the tank.
Would Jobo processor help? Or 3000 series tank? Or maybe different rotation?

Do you use a pre-soak?

Andrzej Maciejewski
1-Nov-2010, 05:01
Yes I do.

venchka
1-Nov-2010, 06:40
Yes I do.

What volume of developer? I have a 2553 tank for rollfilm riding on a Beseler motor base. I use a minimum of 700ml & usually 800ml without problems.

Andrzej Maciejewski
1-Nov-2010, 07:30
This only happens on 4x5 film and not that often either. I use 1000ml of chemistry.

venchka
1-Nov-2010, 07:31
I haven't seen any problems with 4x5 in the 2553 either. However, most of my 4x5 goes in the 3010.

Bruce Watson
1-Nov-2010, 07:32
No force on earth will have me spending many hundreds of dollars for a fancier drum or an automated processor.

Vehemence won't change the facts. Just about everyone who tries them gets tangibly better results (e.g. fewer development artifacts) from the expert drums than from competing rotary drum systems.

If you don't want to pay for the better results, that's your choice. But don't dismiss a better design as merely "fancier" when it is, in fact, a better design that gives better results.

rdenney
1-Nov-2010, 18:11
Vehemence won't change the facts. Just about everyone who tries them gets tangibly better results (e.g. fewer development artifacts) from the expert drums than from competing rotary drum systems.

If you don't want to pay for the better results, that's your choice. But don't dismiss a better design as merely "fancier" when it is, in fact, a better design that gives better results.

You misunderstand me. If that's what it costs, I will give up altogether and send it out. For the tiny volume of anything that I shoot, I just can't justify spending that much. I'm not judging those who spent more--they were responding to a different set of requirements. My new job is more satisfying than the old one but doesn't pay as well, and I have to watch my pennies these days. That doesn't mean I don't own many fancy things when I perceive the fanciness fulfills my own requirements.

But the issue is: Do the problems that some report (I haven't noticed that it was "just about everybody", but I'll take your word for it) result from sideways rotary processing? And if so, will upright inversion processing work better? I used to develop black and white in deep tanks--I am not afraid to mix sufficiently large quantities to fill the tank up. But unlike a daylight tank loaded in a closet or light tent, deep tanks require a real darkroom.

So, have those who have used the 2500-series tanks and reels had problems when using the tanks upright and agitating by inversion? Are the problems when using them in a roller base the result of the wrong sort of chemistry for that sort of agitation?

Rick "an FP4 and HC110 kind of a guy" Denney

rdenney
1-Nov-2010, 19:51
Someone mentioned taking a broader view at what is available, and I just spent a little time doing so. And it made me realize that I need to be very clear about my requirements.

If I do this, I'll be loading the tank in a closet or tent and will process in a bathroom or even in the kitchen. There is no counter space, nor do I have a flat-bottom sink bigger than a 10" frying pan anywhere in the house. I would expect to never need to process more than a day's worth of shooting at a time--six sheets is plenty. With that intended use, these requirements emerge:

1. The tank shall require total (or even partial) darkness only when loading film.
2. Complete processing shall be possible without the use of trays.
3. Film loading shall be a dry process.
4. Agitation shall be possible without spillage.
5. The system shall be capable of even development.
6. The system shall be affordable enough to constitute "play" rather than "work".

The BTZS tubes do not fulfill these requirements. They require a sizable tray and room for a second tray for the stop bath, and the film is exposed to light when removing the developer in preparation for the stop bath. These have an advantage over my deep tanks and hangers only because the whole process doesn't have to be in darkness. But there is no question that my kitchen would be too bright, and all my bathrooms have windows.

The Combi Plan tank does fulfill these requirements, and it is apparently designed for inversion agitation. But it has its detractors, too, including many who experienced leaking caps. And the chemical pours into and out of that tank slowly.

The 2500-series Jobo tank and reels is its fans and its detractors, and the fans seem to conclude that faster rotation is required. People who rolled them on a flat surface seemed to do okay with them. There might not be enough empty space in them for inversion agitation to be effective? (Yes, that is a question.)

The Jobo 3010 is the clear winner, but at half a kilobuck (for new) or a third of a kilobuck (for used) it had better be. It has trouble with that last requirement.

Requirement 5 is the only one that seems to be an issue with the 2500 stuff, and many don't have a problem with uneven development. Someone on this forum suggested a vibration agitator for the Combi Plan and the 2500 series. Is that realistic? What about a larger tank and inversion?

Rick "seeing a lot of conflicting claims in the archives" Denney

Brian C. Miller
1-Nov-2010, 23:45
It sounds like you want something that can be loaded in a changing bag. The double-reel (like I have) is out for that, unless it is inside a big Harrison tent. I just checked rough clearances with the Photoflex Changing Room bag for 8x10, and I think that loading the 2551 (double reel), with the loading base, with six holders, is too tight. You'd need some space, and a closet is minimum.

My bathroom has a window, but I made an insert out of white veneered particle board, and attached it with a hook and rod setup. I used adhesive weather strip to make it light tight. In the attached photo, look behind the D2. That is the covered window, with a circular light-tight vent in the lower-left corner. I used to have it covered with black plastic, and I had to wait until darkness to load or process IR. You could make a sealing curtain for the bathroom windows, which could be removed when you aren't doing film development. It doesn't have to be perfectly light tight if you wait for the sun to go down first.

I personally would never bother with inversion or shake agitation when using a Jobo tank. It is just too easy to grab a plank of wood and screw some cheap plastic furniture casters on it, and roll the tank on that. After all, that's basically what the roller base is. If you come across a 3006 drum, then you can put that in an 8x10 tray, which is what I use. You can use the 2551 in an 8x10 tray, too. But if your bathroom is about 68F or so, then you don't need a tray anyways. (The 8x10 tank is enormous, though)

Another thing with the expert drums is you need the footpump to get the lid off! (Or some home-made equivalent.) Don't ever try to get the lid off without the foot pump, unless pain is your main goal.

If the bathroom has a tub, then you have counter space. Put a piece of plywood over it (you can see mine) and the chuck stuff on top of it. It also has the advantage that anything spilled really won't make a mess, just rinse out the tub. How about a folding TV tray? Or a little rolling cart? That would give you adequate counter space.

BTZS tubes: I'd experiment. (APUG thread (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum43/47756-btzs-tubes-diy-homemade-build-your-own.html)) PVC pipe is cheap. You could "roll" them in the kitchen sink, and you could make a tent to cut out most of the light when the tubes need to be tossed into the stop bath. The BTZS video shows the procedure being done in normal room light.

Have you tried the "taco" method and the Patterson tanks? Might as well try a few sheets with that.

I'd need to see pictures of the kitchen and bathroom in question to give better advice.

rdenney
2-Nov-2010, 05:12
A closet is available. But, yes, I would use a large changing tent rather than a bag, and I would probably want one for loading holders in any case. At some point, I will eventually run out of Quickloads.

Any setup in a bathroom that can't be immediately (on command) put away will be unacceptable to the property manager. That includes window inserts (though the casement windows in our house do not make such devices easy or compact) and table-tops on bathtubs. I'll be skating on thin ice with fixer smell, and that will probably relegate me to the basement, where there is hardly any space at all. Rolling carts have to be put somewhere. The architect who designed our house back in the 70's is probably by now on the board of the magazine Real Simple. The house is wonderfully open and efficient and a joy to live in, but it was not made for hoarders like me and the property manager. There is no wall space or storage areas for rolling carts, and if there was, they are already consumed.

If I start doing black and white again, it will be on a small scale.

Rick "who's gonna just have to get a tank and try it" Denney

Dave Grenet
2-Nov-2010, 06:09
There is also the new plastic sheet film holder that goes into a 3-reel paterson tank. I'm expecting mine any day now so I can't really comment on how easy it is to use (yet).

venchka
2-Nov-2010, 07:33
Rick,
My story and I'm sticking to it.
1. Smallish apartment in Houston, TX. Read: Ambient room temperature of 79F for 6+ months a year is all I can afford to maintain. yesterday, Nov. 1, my apartment was 80F when I got in after work.
2. Harrison Jumbo tent for loading holders and tanks. I didn't need the jumbo, but when Clay Harmon offered his for sale in my backyard I jumped on it.
3. Jobo 2553 tank. The 2551 will work the same. One 2509 (old) reel. Room for a second 2509 reel in the 2553/2551 tanks. Also room for 1 ea. 2509, 120 reel and 35mm reel. Cost for tank & reels $40. I got a deal. I also have a 3010 drum which I use most often. However, the 2553 works fine for all the film I shoot: 4x5, 120-220, 35mm.
4. Uniroller motor base. Reversing feature quit working. No adverse effect on film. $18 at a local camera store. Beseler motor base. One way. Leveling foot. Preffered base for Jobo tanks. I can set the levelling foot to prevent the tank & drum from walking off the base. Free with a darkroom set I got a few years ago. Both motors turn the 3010 at 30 rpm and the 2553 slightly faster.
5. Chemicals and water for pre-soak, stop & wash fit in a plastic dish pan in one half of my double sink. The other half of the sink is for draining/filling the Jobos. Developer & fix live in the fridge. When I want to run film I fill the dishpan with the cold fix and several bottoles of tap water and blue ice as required. The 85F tap water comes down to the mid 70s in an hour or two. Usually in the time it takes to load the tank. Maybe some TV watching.
6. Motor base and GraLab timer fit on 12" (probably less) of kitchen counter space on the right end of the double sink.
7. Process according to the same procedure as any other location. Developer requirement: Xtol 1:3. 700ml in 2553. 500ml in the 3010.
8. Hang wet film on shower rod in bathroom.
9. Scan 4 hours after hanging.
I have been bummed out by the variable temperature in the tanks. I have measured a 4F rise in 3 minutes regardless of starting temperature. For this reason I am going to give Pyrocat-MC 2 bath developing a try. 6 minutes in each solution, temperature not critical.
For inversion processing, I would suggest replenished Xtol as an ecnomical solution. Assuming you can store Xtol in air free containers. I have had good success with wine in a box bladders. However, I use the Xtol 1:3 one shot. One of those bladders would work for the replenisher stock.
As for even devlopment, this is from my last batch in the 3010. The 2553/2509 system works the same. If I provide a minimum of 700ml of developer.

http://gallery.leica-users.org/d/229932-2/Glenwood-1.jpg

http://gallery.leica-users.org/d/232819-2/Kremers+Angels-1.jpg

Good luck. Holler if you have any questions.

Sirius Glass
2-Nov-2010, 10:19
The Jobo 3010 is the clear winner, but at half a kilobuck (for new) or a third of a kilobuck (for used) it had better be. It has trouble with that last requirement.

I have a similar situation. No darkroom therefore I got a Jobo and a "changing room" bag. I did spend $500+ for a 3010 Expert Drum. Now I can process one to ten sheets of film the day I shoot them rather than wait weeks for a darkroom. The $500 was tough to swallow but the satisfaction and enjoyment are Priceless!

Steve

venchka
2-Nov-2010, 11:38
Somebody scored a 3010 for $150 right here at LFPF recently. Took about half a nanosecond.

seabird
2-Nov-2010, 14:37
If I do this, I'll be loading the tank in a closet or tent and will process in a bathroom or even in the kitchen. There is no counter space, nor do I have a flat-bottom sink bigger than a 10" frying pan anywhere in the house. I would expect to never need to process more than a day's worth of shooting at a time--six sheets is plenty. With that intended use, these requirements emerge:

1. The tank shall require total (or even partial) darkness only when loading film.
2. Complete processing shall be possible without the use of trays.
3. Film loading shall be a dry process.
4. Agitation shall be possible without spillage.
5. The system shall be capable of even development.
6. The system shall be affordable enough to constitute "play" rather than "work".



Hi Rick,

Subject to price satisfying your requirement no.6, I'm pretty confident that the 2521 tank you originally played with is going to come close to meeting your specifications.

You'll have no trouble loading the single reel 2521 in a changing bag. I can load my double reel 2551 in a bag at a stretch so the single reel version will be a cinch.

The processing footprint required for rotary processing is not much bigger than the tank size - just enough for the water bath. (I use a plastic tub). Of course, being a daylight process, once the tank is loaded then processing can occur anywhere in the house where the "property manager" isn't... :)



4. Agitation shall be possible without spillage


Just a note of caution regarding your spec no.4: Some lids and tanks seem to seal better than others (I have one tank and three lids - ham fistedness on my part resulted in me busting two of the little black locking "teeth" on a lid so I had to find some replacements). On occasion my Jobo does leak slightly when upending to change solutions (just a little dribble - a few ml at most). Never leaks while horizontal, and only when upended. In my case (rotary processing) this is nothing that a cloth on the bench doesn't catch when changing solutions, but it might be more of an issue if you use inversion processing with a number of inversions. If possible, perhaps try and test before you buy (the shop should be able to fill it with tap-water at least...)



Requirement 5 is the only one that seems to be an issue with the 2500 stuff, and many don't have a problem with uneven development.


Count me in that latter group: I've put a few hundred sheets through my system. I make landscape pictures so a reasonable portion of these have had at least some areas of clear sky. I can think of only one potential problem with uneven development - and even then, I'm not sure if was a development problem or just lens-flare. I process FP4+ and Rodinal using 600ml of processing solution (remember I have the two reel 2551). I dont know what dilution HC110 you use but wouldn't foresee any problems with that combination.

If you have any concerns about uneven development then just make sure you are using a max of 4 sheets per reel and the later 2509n reel with the wings. I've never used the expert tanks so cant comment on relative performance, but I can say that the 2551 tank works to my satisfaction. YMMV. Perhaps my standards are too low. :eek:

I hope you find something that works for you.

Best regards

rdenney
3-Nov-2010, 07:15
Thanks to all for your responses. I think I'm seeing enough people who have had success with the 2500-series tanks to at least give it a try, after I get my house back in order.

Now, to find a way to have time to make pictures at all. Sheesh.

Rick "who can't believe he's contemplating a return to black and white" Denney

Sal Santamaura
3-Nov-2010, 07:47
I just ordered one of these to use with my Paterson roll film tank:

http://cgi.ebay.com/5x4-Film-Processor-for-Paterson-3-Reel-Tank_W0QQitemZ130450918412QQcategoryZ29993QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DMRU-625%252BUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D130446396897%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4675573602225740835

The listing includes a video that shows how it's used. So far posted reports have been good. In my opinion, needing 1 liter rather than 1.5 liter of chemistry for 6 sheets is a significant advantage.

rdenney
3-Nov-2010, 08:28
I just ordered one of these to use with my Paterson roll film tank:

http://cgi.ebay.com/5x4-Film-Processor-for-Paterson-3-Reel-Tank_W0QQitemZ130450918412QQcategoryZ29993QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DMRU-625%252BUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D130446396897%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4675573602225740835

The listing includes a video that shows how it's used. So far posted reports have been good. In my opinion, needing 1 liter rather than 1.5 liter of chemistry for 6 sheets is a significant advantage.

I had seen and mentioned that. I have an old Paterson tank, but not big enough for this device, but if I did it would be a real consideration. The cost of this plus the appropriate Paterson tank rivals the other alternatives.

Rick "whose volume of work is much to small to worry about chemistry quantities" Denney

Marko Trebusak
4-Nov-2010, 05:48
Rick,

Jobo 2521 with inversion agitation is my main method of developing BW film. Up until recently (last two batches) I had no problem what so ever with it. In last two batches I saw increased development at film edges. I was warned that this might happen, as I use detergent instead of Photoflo. Need to wash the reel in hot water (this was the method I found on our board) to see, if this problem will go away. But I need to mention, that I use minimal agitation scheme (26 min with agitation for first 1,5 min and then three cycles of 15 s agitation in even time gaps) that might add to the problem.

Cheers,
Marko

Robert Oliver
23-Sep-2011, 12:27
I know this an old post, but will add info anyway.

I have been doing inversion development using a Jobo 2521 tank and 4x5 reel...

I have seen a few problems with negatives in the last few batches.

The attached shot was processed in HC110 dilution following pre-soak - 70 degrees for 10 minutes w/ 3 inversions every 30 seconds.- I mixed one ounce of HC110 to 63 ounces of water. There are a few areas that show streaking that are very noticeable in the print.

I need to start alternating the orientation of the tank between inversion cycles (upside down, right side up, on it's side along with alternating the actual inversion patterns as well.

I abandoned rotary processing with this system because I just couldn't get even development with a unicolor roller base. I decreased the effect by reversing the direction of the tanks (flipping them over) Don't have a place for tray developement right now.

my tanks are both pretty leaky. Some caps are leakier than others.

considering going back to the tray.

Jay DeFehr
23-Sep-2011, 13:39
I'm currently finishing up a tank of my own design, for processing one or two sheets of 4x5 film in 35ml of solution, with intermittent agitation. I don't know yet if it will develop film evenly. I'll test it when I go home. The design is a kind of cross between a slot processor and a JOBO. The film is loaded into a slot (certainly the easiest loading tank), and the developer is introduced by gravity and fills from the bottom of the tank. Agitation is accomplished by air displacing the developer solution intermittently, the way solutions are forced out of the JOBO solution bottles. My little prototype is very simple and air is supplied by me breathing into a tube, but it has the potential for automation. The tank is smaller than a 4x5 film holder, and could be used in series, with individual automation, but that's getting ahead of myself. If it provides even development, I'll go forward and refine the design. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

rdenney
23-Sep-2011, 20:01
I'm currently finishing up a tank of my own design, for processing one or two sheets of 4x5 film in 35ml of solution, with intermittent agitation. I don't know yet if it will develop film evenly. I'll test it when I go home. The design is a kind of cross between a slot processor and a JOBO. The film is loaded into a slot (certainly the easiest loading tank), and the developer is introduced by gravity and fills from the bottom of the tank. Agitation is accomplished by air displacing the developer solution intermittently, the way solutions are forced out of the JOBO solution bottles. My little prototype is very simple and air is supplied by me breathing into a tube, but it has the potential for automation. The tank is smaller than a 4x5 film holder, and could be used in series, with individual automation, but that's getting ahead of myself. If it provides even development, I'll go forward and refine the design. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

Keep us posted.

But now I wonder if it would be possible to use a bellows blower to create gas-burst agitation in a Jobo tank. With the tank just standing there, would a tube placed down the center, from which bursts of air supplied by a bellows blower, provide an effect agitation? My sense is that the reels might keep the bubbles from displacing the liquid against the film enough.

Rick "who has the tank but has not yet tried any development" Denney

Brian K
23-Sep-2011, 21:31
I use a CPP-2 but do not simply allow the film to spin in the machine. After the first minute of back and forth rotary agitation I take the tank off the machine, use the fat part of my left hand's palm to cover the opening and do several inversion agitations, end over end which lasts about 10-15 seconds and then I put it back on the machine. Another 1'30" and I do it again, etc. The rotation speed is slow to compensate for the added agitation of the inversions. This is the only way i've been able to get perfectly even negatives on the Jobo. I do this with expert tanks and the 2500 series roll film tanks.

Another good method, especially with 8x10 negs are the BTZS tubes. The randomness of the agitation direction combined with rotation works quite well.

The most even 8x10 agitation I ever had was when i had a nitrogen burst system and 3 1/2 gallon tanks. Those negs were perfect every time.

As for the use of a hose and blower bellows, it's not going to provide good agitation using jobo tanks and reels because they simply are not made for that type of agitation and you would need far more pressure, and consistent pressure at that to do a good job.. And I see little benefit from the extra work involved versus just using a Jobo thank on a Jobo machine. You might as well just go with dip and dunk.

The simplest set up with the best results are the BTZ tubes. I think they are being made again, if not, there are plans online for making them out of readily available PVC piping.

rdenney
25-Sep-2011, 12:20
I use a CPP-2 but do not simply allow the film to spin in the machine. After the first minute of back and forth rotary agitation I take the tank off the machine, use the fat part of my left hand's palm to cover the opening and do several inversion agitations, end over end which lasts about 10-15 seconds and then I put it back on the machine. Another 1'30" and I do it again, etc. The rotation speed is slow to compensate for the added agitation of the inversions. This is the only way i've been able to get perfectly even negatives on the Jobo. I do this with expert tanks and the 2500 series roll film tanks.

Brian, that's good to know. I will not use a processor, but will probably construct a manual roller. I would be easy enough to make wheels for the roller that are eccentric, which would cause the random motion provided BTZS tube. I had looked at those tubes, but the space requriements for their use are beyond what I have available. My current house in Virginia does not permit construction of a darkroom as I had in my houses in Texas.

Rick "who will have to experiment" Denney