Oddball lenses: 16 3/16" Protar and 75mm Perigraphe

[halberstadt]

I've been trying to clean house and have a couple of oddball lenses I'm having trouble figuring out. Any thoughts of the value/utility of these? There isn't too much online about either.

I posted a few snaps of them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/halberst/sets/72157625106962991/with/5110833363/

75mm f14 SOM BERTHIOT PARIS PERIGRAPHE SIERIE VIa in pretty good condition, no shutter, and in some sort of "cup" that might fit into a shutter?

The 16 and 3/16" Bausch & Lomb Protar has the coating coming off and the shutter is non functional- but the weird thing is that the front and rear cells have the same focal length stamped on them. From what little I've seen of Protar lenses, I thought the front and rear was meant to be interchanged?

Any thoughts as to where to find more info? Are these of any value? Should I just put them back in the closet?

[Dan Fromm]

Re Protars, go to www.cameraeccentric.com, click on info or information, and look at the various B&L and Zeiss catalogs. I'd swear that this link has been mentioned before on this board with reference to protars.

Perigraphes in particular and Berthiot lenses for LF in general are poorly documented and little understood. By an odd coincidence I've recently bought a 135/6.8 Perigraphe and some SOM Berthiot propaganda that describes f/6.8 and f/14 Perigraphes. Early post-WWII propaganda, I think.

Berthiot claims that the f/6.8er covers 65 degrees. It is a dagor type. The propaganda mentions that a new use for this lens has recently turned up, photogrammetry. So it must be a low distortion lens.

Berthiot say of the f/14 (my translation): The f/14 Perigraphe, which covers, at small apertures and with a focal length of 90 mm, 13 x 18 (corresponding angle: around 100 degrees), is a wide angle objective; it is used especially for photographic tall monuments when it isn't possible to get far enough back. There's a cross-section, it is also a 6/2 double anastigmat like a dagor.

Your 75 should, then, cover 4x5. Its serial number means made 1950-1, so it had better be coated. If my 135/6.8 is typical, the coating will be a nearly invisible blue.

Finally, Berthiot offers another dagor type, the Eurygraphe. This is a convertible lens, maximum aperture from f/6 to f/6.4 depending on focal length. Claimed coverage, 54 degrees. Eurygraphes were sold as casket sets.

If you had used Google first instead of squawking like a baby bird and sitting there waiting for your mouth to be filled with partially digested bugs and worms, you'd have found f/14 Perigraphes offered for sale all over the world. Not inexpensive, and 75 mm ones are scarce; most of the ones on offer are longer.

[halberstadt]

Hey Dan,

I did search, but found very little. For example: ebay has zero present listings, and two completed listings for the search: 75 mm berthiot. The two completed listings have both keywords but have nothing to do with this sort of lens (one TLR, one Cine.)

Questions like why are the back and front cells of my Protar labelled with the same focal length also don't seem easily answered by searches.

Thanks for your info though.

[Dan Fromm]

Hey Dan,

I did search, but found very little. For example: ebay has zero present listings, and two completed listings for the search: 75 mm berthiot. The two completed listings have both keywords but have nothing to do with this sort of lens (one TLR, one Cine.)

Questions like why are the back and front cells of my Protar labelled with the same focal length also don't seem easily answered by searches.

Thanks for your info though.I just recently used google to search for Perigraphe, got a fair number of hits, mainly f/14s. Try it.

And go read the catalogs. Not all Protars were triple convertibles.

[Steven Tribe]

Most Perigraphe Series VI a are the no. 2 and 3 sizes (90mm and 120mm). Yours must be the no. 1 which is less common and must cover 4x5 (9x12cm).
I seem to remember that the front and rear cells are so close together that it is not really possible to mount in a standard shutter?

[halberstadt]

Most Perigraphe Series VI a are the no. 2 and 3 sizes (90mm and 120mm). Yours must be the no. 1 which is less common and must cover 4x5 (9x12cm).
I seem to remember that the front and rear cells are so close together that it is not really possible to mount in a standard shutter?

I don't know if it's possible, but this has no shutter. The glass itself is very very small indeed.

[Steven Tribe]

I can add that, using the photos of yours, and looking at mine, they seem to suffer from "displaced wheel stop syndrome!". The click stop system of the wheel aperture eventually doesn't hold the selected aperture centrally!

[halberstadt]

Wow, you're right. I didn't notice, though I'll have to pull them out of storage and see if it was on the click or not. Seems like a bad design!

[EdWorkman]

The catalogs will show many combinations of VIIa s, including symmetrical. I have a symmetrical on a 3A Graflex- it puzzled the heck out of me that the lens was so long- until I pulled it out and found another just like it on the other side-not sequential serial numbers but within 5. Two roughly 11 and change make a 6 plus, normal for a postcard.

[halberstadt]

The catalogs will show many combinations of VIIa s, including symmetrical. I have a symmetrical on a 3A Graflex- it puzzled the heck out of me that the lens was so long- until I pulled it out and found another just like it on the other side-not sequential serial numbers but within 5. Two roughly 11 and change make a 6 plus, normal for a postcard.

Thanks for the info Ed. Are you happy with the results? Perhaps I should just have the shutter overhauled- I wasn't sure if it's worth it. I think I got this at a swap meet for $50 or $75 bucks a decade ago and gave up on it because I have no retaining ring.