Exhibit advice needed

[Richard Wasserman]

I am in the process of negotiating for a year-long exhibit at a major botanical garden (1700 acres) here in Illinois. The exhibit would consist of about 25 framed black and white silver gelatin 16x20 photographs that would be displayed in their research library. I am at a loss as to what to charge them for this project. Are there any websites, or other sources of information that deal with this? Or, anyone here have any experience they care to share? Thanks!

[Kirk Gittings]

They aren't buying them, but hanging them for a year?

[Richard Wasserman]

They aren't buying them, but hanging them for a year?

I really want them to purchase the photos, but it looks like they won't be able to and will hang them for a year.

[mdm]

Nothing.

David

[Kirk Gittings]

I really want them to purchase the photos, but it looks like they won't be able to and will hang them for a year.

I've sold a few portfolios over the years to institutions that wanted to hang them (or not) for extended periods, but I've never been paid a dime to hang work (baring commissions) that I was getting back at the end of it. Hopefully it will generate value in the form of press, print sales, etc.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know anyone who charges for a library display. It's considered a community
favor and might or might not generate the kind of public interest which creates sales.

[Richard Wasserman]

I've sold a few portfolios over the years to institutions that wanted to hang them (or not) for extended periods, but I've never been paid a dime to hang work (baring commissions) that I was getting back at the end of it. Hopefully it will generate value in the form of press, print sales, etc.


Who generally is responsible for framing?

[patrickjames]

You should work out some type of rental/lease agreement to at least cover your costs. To do it for free is insanity to me.

[Kirk Gittings]

Who generally is responsible for framing?

There is no "generally" IME. I am doing two shows with the city next year, one with ten prints that they are framing (a commission-they are buying the prints) and a larger one with 25 prints that I am framing. I am also in a group show in Santa Fe next year at the new history museum-they are doing the framing.

[Jim Jones]

I do some pro nono work, and wouldn't even think of charging the garden. One non-profit year out of the life of an archival photograph is negligible. Do make each photograph one that discerning people would be proud to hang in their homes.

[IanG]

Some local government run galleries pay to show work in the UK, it's quite normal and I think I was paid around £100 ("160) a week a few years ago.

Also after a group show part of a Photography Festival the Regional arts council asked if they could hang the exhibition at their headquarters, they paid us for that.

It maybe that the Botanical Gardens make a contribution towards framing costs etc because mounting and framing is the main expense and 25 frames will be tied up for a year.

If costs aren't covered it's now a heavy additional cost to show work, I have a big exhibition next year and 60 frames would be crippling on top of printing costs.

Ian

[jp]

To me, "government run galleries" sounds pretty unusual. We have public universities/libraries with galleries, but no other government run galleries that come to mind, and I don't think I've heard of them actually paying money for that. The concept of US government run galleries concept would be highly suspect with the current economic climate and political interest in limiting the scope of government. It also brings to mind the Nazi "Degenerate Art" exhibits. But if the UK pays artists to hang art, then by all means take advantage of it!

Back to the OP. I would not expect any money. You should expect to work with them and have them put some promotion to their membership and the community, you are adding to the reason people should visit the place. Likewise when you promote your exhibit you'd explain your interest in helping the facility so as to build some common ground with potential customers. You could also expect to have some contact information displayed with your photos so people know the images are for sale and are available. Many of their board and financial supporters are probably people who you want for customers. You could also talk to previous exhibitors to see how things are handled.

[Joe Lipka]

I have had many exhibits in municipal galleries. About the best you can hope for is having the city print and distribute postcards announcing a show and have them foot the bill for a reception.

I would think details such as these would be worked out ahead of time during the "call for work" phase, or through an exhibition agreement.

Have they agreed to pay for insurance for the duration of the show as a guard against theft or loss?

[IanG]

Municipalities all over the world have public libraries, art galleries, museums and arts centres, even Botanical Gardens.

A friend had work on show at Birmingham Botanical Gardens back in the 90's and he was funded to show his work there.

The principle that artists should be paid to show work is quite important, there's usually funds available from both the public & private sectors, after all a gallery has to pay to have background muzak.

Galleries regular hire in touring shows and the same principle of payment is applying there. I can't see that US artist are any different to other countries in needing money to live off and enable them to create new art. On the other hand often galleries will try to avaoid paying anything if they can

Ian

[Richard Wasserman]

Thank you, this has all been very interesting. As I have no experience showing in venues like this, I am charting unknown waters. The garden I am talking to is not a municipal one, but was started by a private person almost 100 years ago, and has grown from there. It is now a non profit organization that is supported by its members, and corporate funding. My exhibit would be the first one that they have done from an outside source–in the past all shows used material from their own collections. I of course need to have a conversation with them to see what their expectations are. I certainly hope to at a minimum to get my costs covered. We'll see...

[William McEwen]

The photographer Peter Feresten (all formats up to 5x7) once declared he was no longer interested in exhibiting his work. "I'm tired of providing free entertainment for strangers," he said.

[Kirk Gittings]

Maybe that's why I never heard of him!:)

[Laura_Campbell]

I would think most established reputable non profits with membership, and corporate funding, would be open to the idea of helping you with your costs. You may need to educate them on the cost of preparing photographs for exhibition. I'm all for doing charitable work, but I believe artists should proceed carefully when offering work at no cost to any organization. I've met many a non profit that had budgets for special events but were unwilling to pay simply because they felt that their non profit status entitled them to "freebies." Most artists, unless you have some other source of income, cannot afford to become philanthropists in the financial sense. Just my 2 cents. :-)

[Richard Mahoney]

I would think most established reputable non profits with membership, and corporate funding, would be open to the idea of helping you with your costs. You may need to educate them on the cost of preparing photographs for exhibition. ... Most artists, unless you have some other source of income, cannot afford to become philanthropists in the financial sense. Just my 2 cents. :-)

I'd agree with Laura. We've set up and now look after a charity rehoming retired racing greyhounds. As we receive donations and have certain tax concessions and so on everything has to be run in a strict business like fashion so that we can easily satisfy our statutory obligations. Even if someone -- say an artist -- was to generously donate us their work `for nothing' then it would be most helpful for us to know exactly how much their donation was actually `worth' and what, if anything, was expected in return.

An early and open discussion about each other's expectations, including a consideration of the real costs associated with, say, an exhibition, would be essential. Having a chat early on would help to ensure that we share common ground and that no party is disadvantaged. It would also help our accountant. When it comes to doing the books it is best to be able to accurately quantify all the costs associated with `doing business', regardless of whether the money actually comes from the charities accounts, out of our own pockets, or from our donors. In many ways, I don't see Richard's relationship with The Gardens as being so very different in kind as that between any artist and a commercial gallery.


Best,

Richard

[Darin Boville]

Now hold on here a minute people. Why are photographers so eager to give their work away?

What if I told you that at 1700 acres this is not your average local, labor of love garden? This thing is HUGE.

What if I told you they charged an $11 admission fee?

What if I told you that the number of visitors a year is heading toward 1,000,000?

That their expenses in 2009 were over $26 million?

That their endowment grew by $41 million in 2009 (not total, this is the increase)?

We need to re-think how photographers support themselves. This garden is willing to pay for an exhibit. They pay for other exhibits--or do we assume that the traveling shows that we see in museums do it "for exposure"?

If you aren't going to charge this garden for the 25 photos you are giving them for a *year* who will you charge? Galleries rent art all the time. You can rent art, too.

--Darin

[Laura_Campbell]

Now hold on here a minute people. Why are photographers so eager to give their work away?

What if I told you that at 1700 acres this is not your average local, labor of love garden? This thing is HUGE.

What if I told you they charged an $11 admission fee?

What if I told you that the number of visitors a year is heading toward 1,000,000?

That their expenses in 2009 were over $26 million?

That their endowment grew by $41 million in 2009 (not total, this is the increase)?

We need to re-think how photographers support themselves. This garden is willing to pay for an exhibit. They pay for other exhibits--or do we assume that the traveling shows that we see in museums do it "for exposure"?

If you aren't going to charge this garden for the 25 photos you are giving them for a *year* who will you charge? Galleries rent art all the time. You can rent art, too.

--Darin

Nicely said! High-five!

[bob carnie]

Who approached who on this project?
If you approached them and made the suggestion then I think its a donation on your part.
If they approached you , then at least all printing and framing costs should be covered by them.

[Richard Wasserman]

Now hold on here a minute people. Why are photographers so eager to give their work away?

What if I told you that at 1700 acres this is not your average local, labor of love garden? This thing is HUGE.

What if I told you they charged an $11 admission fee?

What if I told you that the number of visitors a year is heading toward 1,000,000?

That their expenses in 2009 were over $26 million?

That their endowment grew by $41 million in 2009 (not total, this is the increase)?

We need to re-think how photographers support themselves. This garden is willing to pay for an exhibit. They pay for other exhibits--or do we assume that the traveling shows that we see in museums do it "for exposure"?

If you aren't going to charge this garden for the 25 photos you are giving them for a *year* who will you charge? Galleries rent art all the time. You can rent art, too.

--Darin


Darin, Nice detective work! You came to the same conclusion I did.

I think artists all too often operate from a place of fear and insecurity. Everyone else gets to make a living, why shouldn't we? You're not going to get anything if you don't ask for it. The venue may not agree with me of course, but that will be part of the discussion if necessary.

[Kirk Gittings]

You should ask-it couldn't hurt.

But....lets get away from the chest pounding and back to reality.....I am very familiar with the institution you are talking about and I love it. The research library is not a "premium" venue there. Displaying art is not their central purpose. The library there does not get a ton of visitors and they are not likely to want to spend much if any money to have work hung there. Don't get me wrong-you know I love your work, but they are not going to see your work as a big revenue generator and will not likely see the value in paying to hang your work. But given that there are other reasons to do this anyway..........


I think I probably have as extensive an exhibit record as anyone here, like 70+ exhibits. I have had public art shows that were commissions-they paid to have the work produced and then owned and hung them afterwords, I have had public shows at museums where I supplied the work and they framed them. I have had shows at museums where they simply pulled my work (purchased) from their collections-I did nothing. And I have had various combinations of the above. Shows at museums generate the most sales for me and they get no cut- so that is my preferred venue for showing and generating sales. I have had friends-big names-that were paid to produce prints for museum shows, but I haven't. I guess I haven't turned that corner-reached that plateau yet. But I also know that being paid to produce prints for a show is rare for them too and didn't happen until they were known nationally.

I know from personal experience that exhibitions at public institutions are the most high profile things I do, because they give you validity and I promote the heck out of them in addition to whatever the institution does. And that oftentimes leads to bigger things. But even smaller venues can lead to bigger things too.

Here is one example. Some years ago my old friend from college, Paul Palletti in Louisville asked me to do a small retrospective show at his gallery- just 30 prints. I had not been showing much-I had been concentrating on commercial work to put my kids through college. As with any show at a private gallery, I did all the printing and framing on my dime. Paul sold a number of works from this show-one of my best ever. But the real success..........I promoted this show exhaustively around the country and in NM. This led to a nice article in New Mexico Magazine, which led to them publishing a retrospective book about me which led to a large 100 print retrospective exhibit at The Albuquerque Museum.

Trust me I know how expensive it is to hang shows. I am just saying that is not the only or (for me anyway) the most important consideration. I look at what I can do with this opportunity. How can I build on this opportunity? More venues for the work when this comes down? Magazine articles? Speaking engagements? teaching opportunities?

If I can't afford to frame and print a show and that is what is required of me, then there are other avenues to explore before I give up. How many prints do I need to sell to cover my expenses? 5 maybe? Maybe they can't get their heads around renting the work but can understand buying a small suite for their offices or collection. That's a win/win situation for both of you. Be flexible, positive and creative, but get your work out there.

Just my 2 cents.

[Peter De Smidt]

If it were me, I'd ask for at least one half of the print and framing production costs as a rental fee. Show them all of the costs of things that go into such a show, as many people have no idea about this. Tell them while you support their organization, and you love the idea of them displaying your photographs, that you simply can't eat all of the costs yourself. Perhaps give them a percentage of any sales that the display produces.

[Kirk Gittings]

I just wonder how many people who are suggesting getting rental fees have ever personally had success getting them?

[Merg Ross]

Who approached who on this project?

This is the question that needs answering.

From personal experience, I have never been compensated for exhibiting my work, except by sales. However, work in collections has been purchased, not gifted.

As Kirk suggests, there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to exhibiting photography. There was a time, when museums and galleries were responsible for the presentation, including framing. More recently, this has become the duty and expense of the photographer.

[Peter De Smidt]

I just wonder how many people who are suggesting getting rental fees have ever personally had success getting them?

I haven't ever asked, but then I've only done small, local shows that are up for only a few weeks. I expect Kirk is right, and the photographer won't get anything other than exposure, but it still seems like a good idea to let them know how much the exhibit costs to make.

[IanG]

I just wonder how many people who are suggesting getting rental fees have ever personally had success getting them?

I have both for solo exhibitions and group shows. I have also waived a fee when production costs have been covered by previous hanging fees and public funding when I've known a Gallery was struggling getting funding. Sadly though many galleries try to get away with paying nothing.

Ian

[bob carnie]

IMO the most important aspect is having your work seen by others.
Part of the cost of being a photographer/printer is the materials we use.
Why stop half way , or put a block ahead of yourself.

If this is a good location, if a lot of people are going to see it, if you want to push your name and work around.

Its a no brainer , do it.

[Kirk Gittings]

I have both for solo exhibitions and group shows. I have also waived a fee when production costs have been covered by previous hanging fees and public funding when I've known a Gallery was struggling getting funding. Sadly though many galleries try to get away with paying nothing.

Ian

As I recall, in 1979 when I was a graduate student in Canada, there was, a nominal fee given to the featured artist in both public and private galleries. But it was not much $. I don't remember how much. Already having been showing in the states for almost a decade, I had never heard of such a thing and was amazed, and have never personally seen it again since returning to the US in '83. I wonder if any Canadians know about this-if it has continued?

Now, I have had work purchased that became part of a packaged traveling exhibit that traveled to out of state institutions and I am sure that there were rental fees paid between institutions for the rental of these packaged exhibits, but I saw nothing from the rental fees.

[IanG]

I've just returned from my local library (back in the UK) which has a separate art gallery and they do pay a nominal fee for Exhibitions. I also know that they can add to this through additional arts funding if required which does not come out of their own operating budget. But they have to go through an application process which may or not be successful.

In addition they can also get funding to commission new work. Often they recoup some of the costs by then rewnting the work out as a touring exhibition.

Ian

[bob carnie]

Your Local Canuk chipping in here.

On a Public Gallery Note:
I just finished putting two large photographic shows in the Royal Ontario Museum.
First Nigel Dickson with the Vanity Fair exhibit which ran for 6 months, as well Mark Nowaczynski House Call Project which is still open for 10 months. The ROM paid my company to print and frame the House Calls exhibit , and paid my company to print the Dickson exhibit , the framing went elsewhere.
The house call exhibit was featured in the View Camera mag along side Frank Petrino by the way.
They handled all the marketing / opening issues for both artists and in both cases the ROM plans to move the shows to other public galleries/museums in Ontario.
I am not privy to know what the deal was between the Artist's and the Museum.
In both cases the artists were chosen on the projects themselves and made selections from 11x14 portfolio proof prints, and not framed pieces.

On a Private Gallery Note:
The Toronto Art Fair is opening this week , and Galleries that pay the big bucks to be in usually pay for the printing and framing of pieces for this 5 day show. They usually will only do this for signed artists with their gallery. For others who are not signed the usual thing is the artist ** gladly** provides prints and frames with the hope of being picked up and being noticed. ** Gallery Owners from all over the world attend**

Day to day , the better commercial gallery's will invest their money in proven photographers, who can bring to the table the goods, They are not interested in breaking in Artists who bring all kinds of issues with them, they like to see a few final solo shows under their belt and some kind of track record with sales.
The rest of the commercial gallery's usually will help with promotion and the physical opening of a show but shy away from any financial help. Their position is that they are paying the rent on a bricks an motar building/showroom, pay the staff to help/administer the shows and the photographer needs to deliver the goods ready to hang.

I hope this fills in the blanks a bit , I am only talking about the Toronto Area, where I have been hanging/producing shows for over 25 years.

Right now I am working on a project with my friend Paul Paletti in Loisville where we plan to bring to that area over 30 crated solo and group shows.
In this case the photgraphers have not only paid to have their work printed/framed and crated, they also will be asked to cover the shipping , back and forth between Loisville Kentucky and Toronts, but as well be present for all the opening in Kentucky when we get this project all sorted out. We hope to have private gallerys, public galleries , private and public spaces join in and offer their location for this project.

For my clients this is an amazing way to show their work and we have plans of moving this show to other locals that want to work with us.



As I recall, in 1979 when I was a graduate student in Canada, there was, a nominal fee given to the featured artist in both public and private galleries. But it was not much $. I don't remember how much. Already having been showing in the states for almost a decade, I had never heard of such a thing and was amazed, and have never personally seen it again since returning to the US in '83. I wonder if any Canadians know about this-if it has continued?

Now, I have had work purchased that became part of a packaged traveling exhibit that traveled to out of state institutions and I am sure that there were rental fees paid between institutions for the rental of these packaged exhibits, but I saw nothing from the rental fees.

[Louie Powell]

I would need to know a lot more about the situation before answering the question.

I've never been paid to hang a show. In fact, the situation is usually the other way around - I have to pay in order to access a venue to hang my work. In return for hanging the work, I have the opportunity for sales. Admittedly, an unfulfilled dream, but we can always hope - - -

If you have the opportunity to sell images, it seems to me that a major question is whether the venue expects to take a percentage of sales. If the venue is hosting the show in expectation of generating revenue, then there is an argument that the venue should also share in the cost of the show. But if the venue is not taking a significant percentage, but rather is only doing it in order to provide decoration in their facility and perhaps attract a few additional visitors, then I don't see a valid argument for asking them to pay you to hang the show. And that's especially true if the venue is a non-profit.

Since you described the situation as a long-term show, then I presume you retain ownership of the prints. Who is responsible for insurance? If the prints are protected under the venue's insurance, then there could be an argument for you to pay them something. But that's balanced by the fact that your show is bringing value to the venue.

[Frank Petronio]

Some institutions are awash with cash and you should have no qualms about taking it from them for your reasonable goods and services.

There is nothing wrong with having lunch or a drink and sociably asking what the situation is, do your homework, talk to board members, and err on the bold side since you can always come down a bit and they'll think they are getting a better deal.

Leaving money on the table - so they can just go buy more Aeron chairs or whatever - is a real shame.

I did quite well with one deal six years ago. I am still spending their money. They were just going to give it to some other company if it wasn't me.

[Richard Mahoney]

... Leaving money on the table - so they can just go buy more Aeron chairs or whatever - is a real shame. ...

Completely agree with Frank on this ... There is simply nothing wrong with sitting down and having a quiet chat with a crowd that you are trying to work alongside. It's the only way to get a sense of where things really stand. Putting aside for the moment one's expectations about `the way things are always done' may be helpful. Who knows, depending on the position of the non-profit it may be possible for them to recoup the cost of the exhibition against their tax. It might also be possible to do the same against your own if one's work was classed as a `donation'. One simply isn't going to know unless one asks and politely discusses various approaches.


Kind regards,

Richard