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sully75
19-Oct-2010, 13:58
Hello all,

Need to make a set of bellows. Anyone have any suggestions for something that's currently available? Lots of suggestions on the forum but I'm still not sure what's good.

Thanks!
Paul

Doug Herta
19-Oct-2010, 21:44
I used:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/260110-Duvetyne-Commando-Cloth-Flame-Retardant-Darkroom-Black-Out-Cloth-1?cat_id=1603

I sandwich ribs made from Yupo between two layers of the cloth bonded with contact cement.

Jim C.
19-Oct-2010, 22:37
It depends on how much you want to spend, and how authentic you want the
bellows to be. Thin pared leather is going to cost you, book cloth is cheaper but still
might be costly depending on the size of the bellows.
If you just want something to shoot with, book cloth and Thorlabs blackout fabric
or Doug's suggestion of duvetyne, I don't know how thick Freestyles is but the stuff
I get from Set Shop is pretty heavy for camera bellows unless you make bag bellows.

Steven Tribe
20-Oct-2010, 01:59
It is very easy to forget the need for guestimating the thickness of compressed pleats of the new bellows using new (thicker or extra layers?) materials! There are a lot of camera designs where just a few millimeters of extra total thickness will prohibit "collapsability". From my own experience!

Tim k
20-Oct-2010, 02:44
I used:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/260110-Duvetyne-Commando-Cloth-Flame-Retardant-Darkroom-Black-Out-Cloth-1?cat_id=1603

I sandwich ribs made from Yupo between two layers of the cloth bonded with contact cement.

Doug, off the top of your head, can you say how this this stuff is?
thx

John Bowen
20-Oct-2010, 04:40
Have you checked out this article on Bellows construction?

http://www.jbhphoto.com/articles/bellows/bbuild.htm

jon.oman
20-Oct-2010, 07:51
The 'duvetyne' at Freestyle must be a new product for them. I searched their whole site once, and never found anything like it. Thanks for pointing it out!

Jon

sully75
20-Oct-2010, 16:01
I used:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/260110-Duvetyne-Commando-Cloth-Flame-Retardant-Darkroom-Black-Out-Cloth-1?cat_id=1603

I sandwich ribs made from Yupo between two layers of the cloth bonded with contact cement.

That stuff looks great, is it thin? The camera I need to make bellows for folds up so thin it's ridiculous.

What's Yupo?

Andrew O'Neill
21-Oct-2010, 08:27
Yupo: http://www.yupousa.com/paper/index.php

I buy mine at a local art supplier in Vancouver in large sheets or pads. I use it as tissue support for carbon transfer printing.

I also would like to know how thin this Duvetyne is as I will be constructing a bellows for my 14x17 camera.

Brian Ellis
21-Oct-2010, 08:39
I second Steven's warning about making the bellows too thick. I've never made my own bellows but I had a bellows made for a Linhof Technikardan by a company in Clearwater, Florida years ago. The bellows looked great and certainly kept the light out. Only problem was it was too thick so I couldn't fold up the camera.

sully75
21-Oct-2010, 08:53
I'm concerned because the bellows on this camera fold up to almost nothing, the whole camera folds to maybe 1.5 inches thick, including the base.

The original bellows look to be made out of paper? I'm wondering if cameras made for plate photography were less concerned with absolute light-tightness?

BarryS
21-Oct-2010, 08:57
Every type of duvetyne/commando cloth I've ever used has been way too thick to make a bellows that properly compacts. This Nylon Sheeting Rubberized Cloth (http://www.balaams-ass.com/bellowscloth.htm) is expensive ($45/yd), but it's very thin at only .005" thick. I've been using the Thorlabs BK-5 cloth (http://www.thorlabs.com/thorProduct.cfm?partNumber=BK5) for rollerblind shutters and it's not quite 100% lightproof, but sandwiched with another layer of BK5 or black cloth, it should be fine. It's very thin. Leather Supply House Online Store (http://www.leathersupplyhouse.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=rubber_cloth&cart_id=3479651.4981) also sells a variety of rubberized fabrics.

Doug Herta
22-Oct-2010, 18:12
I'm sorry - the cloth I used from freestyle was called Darkroom cloth - it appears to have been discontinued. I might be worth giving them a call to see if the commando cloth is a suitable substitute. I think Barry has some better suggestions.

I built a replacement bellows for an 8X10 B&J Orbit with the darkroom cloth.

R Shaffer
27-Oct-2010, 08:29
I am currently exploring bellows cloth options as well.

I found that 4 coats of Plasti-Dip ( spray can version ) makes a 200 denier Oxford nylon ( $4.63/yd ) light proof and considerably improves the bond when glueing.

Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics also has a 100 denier nylon taffeta with a silver coating ( $9.89/yd ) that is close to light proof. I have not tried coating the silver side with the plasti-dip yet. The 100 denier would be a good thickness for a bellows that really needs to compress small.

For my 8x10 bellows I'm pretty certain I'm gonna go with the 200 denier Oxford with plasti-dip coating for the exterior and the 100 denier for the inner lining. I may give the inner lining a coat of plasti-dip over the silver just to improve the bond.

The black acrylic paint ( diluted 1:1 ) also improves light proof qualities.

Had not thought of Yupo for my ribs. Gonna check that out today. Any issues with glueing it?

Peter De Smidt
27-Oct-2010, 18:02
I've investigated various bellows cloths for player pianos, as a friend of mine is a piano repairman. Most are way too thick and stiff for camera bellows. The super thin one mentioned earlier does sound promising, though.

Rob, why would you put silver coated cloth on the inside? If you coat it with something dark, which I assume you will, if the coating ever flakes, then you could have problems with stray light bouncing off of the silver fabric.

I'd be wary of any DIY coating. Bellows have sharp creases which are regularly moved. The coatings might fail in places in a fairly short time.

Shen45
27-Oct-2010, 19:59
I believe Ian Grant has some very good information on bellows construction, if he is about he may be able to give some tips.

Doug Herta
27-Oct-2010, 20:48
..... Had not thought of Yupo for my ribs. Gonna check that out today. Any issues with glueing it?...

I have had no problems. The bonding strength of the contact cement between the two pieces of fabric that are sandwiching the Yupo ribs appears to be significant as well. One thing I did was round the edges of the ribs more than I would on cardboard ribs because the Yupo is quite rigid and could cause premature wear if the edges and corners are too sharp.

Building a large bellows is pretty tedious. Cutting, spacing, and gluing 80+ ribs... I admire the bellows builders. They must have some kind of system worked out or they aren't making much of an hourly wage.

Steven Tribe
28-Oct-2010, 03:04
We must remember there two types of bellows. The traditional instructions for replacement bellows are for "smart" outer layer, plastic/card spacers and thin dark cloth - making a sandwich. But lots of foldable cameras have just the one layer, often just of strong paper which has been prefolded - anything else will inhibit folding.

R Shaffer
28-Oct-2010, 08:53
I've investigated various bellows cloths for player pianos, as a friend of mine is a piano repairman. Most are way too thick and stiff for camera bellows. The super thin one mentioned earlier does sound promising, though.

Rob, why would you put silver coated cloth on the inside? If you coat it with something dark, which I assume you will, if the coating ever flakes, then you could have problems with stray light bouncing off of the silver fabric.

I'd be wary of any DIY coating. Bellows have sharp creases which are regularly moved. The coatings might fail in places in a fairly short time.

I would put the silver side in towards the ribs, so it won't be exposed in the bellows. The silver is a urethane coating, so I can't see how it could flake. It is very flexible.

The plasti-dip is a rubber paint. Don't know if it is a synthetic or natural rubber. I burnished a spot on the coating until it blistered. When I pull on the loosened area it snaps right back and is still very well adhered at the edges.

Very true that it will get lots of abuse at the folds, but it seems it will be plenty durable and hold together even if it delaminates from the nylon.

Peter De Smidt
30-Oct-2010, 19:18
Well, the only way is to try. I have no doubt about plasti-dip's durability when new. The question is if it becomes brittle with age.

Tim Deming
2-Nov-2010, 12:39
I've made 3 8x10 bellows and recently a long bellows for 5x7. It's true, most of the coated fabrics are too thick to fold properly, and many plasticized ones are hard to glue. In the past, I've been able to find thin blackout curtain (cloth on outside, rubberized interior) that glues well and is thin enough for an 8x10 bellows to fold. However, I cannot find material this thin at my local fabric store anymore. Everything available now is too thick and too rubbery (the fold crease wont hold). For the recent 5x7, I found a "car windshield cover to keep off snow and ice" at a local discount store that turned out to be perfect. It is a light black cloth that seems to be coated to make it completely lightproof. I think it's similar to the material used to make film changing bags. It is incredibly thin and easy to fold (I made 1cm folds). This was approx 1 meter by 2.5 meters and just perfect for the 5x7 bellows. I used it on the exterior, with a thin black cotton liner (neither shiny nor lightproof) on the inside, sandwiching cardboard stays in the middle. All glued using contact cement, which worked well. It cost $5! Unfortunately, the size is too small for 8x10, but this material is perfect for anything 5x7 and smaller. There must be a supplier of this as a raw fabric somewhere.

hope this helps

Tim

Tim k
2-Nov-2010, 14:59
For the sake of conversation, what is too thick. .015" .020" ?

I have found a cheap bbq cover plastic material that is .006" and about 98% lightproof, and a vinyl coated fabric at the fabric store thats .016" and about 98% lightproof. Two 98% layers should add up to about right for lightproof, but is that too thick. If I take either material in a dark room and put a bright flashlight up to the fabric, I can just see it. But with both layers its good.

vinny
2-Nov-2010, 16:53
I used:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/260110-Duvetyne-Commando-Cloth-Flame-Retardant-Darkroom-Black-Out-Cloth-1?cat_id=1603

I sandwich ribs made from Yupo between two layers of the cloth bonded with contact cement.

Sorry but this is a bad idea. First of all it's not always completely opaque, then there's the flame retardant which comes off as dust that you don't want to breath or have floating around in your camera. I am around it and use tons of it in my line of work. Just my 2 cents.

jon.oman
2-Nov-2010, 19:13
Sorry but this is a bad idea. First of all it's not always completely opaque, then there's the flame retardant which comes off as dust that you don't want to breath or have floating around in your camera. I am around it and use tons of it in my line of work. Just my 2 cents.

You could probably cut the size larger than you need, and wash it allowing for shrinkage. That should remove the flame retardant chemical. In fact Freestyle shows that washing the cloth does remove it.

I have a small sample of the cloth. I found that it appears to be 0.80mm thick, which is about 0.031 inches. If the bellows does not have to be collapsed too much, shouldn't two layers of the cloth work? I can use a bright LED light behind two layers of cloth, and I can not see any light coming through.

Tim k
2-Nov-2010, 19:40
Jon, .062 for just the cloth seems pretty thick to me. It would work, but I think it would be pretty stiff.

Andrew Plume
3-Nov-2010, 02:38
I believe Ian Grant has some very good information on bellows construction, if he is about he may be able to give some tips.


I'll second that - I met up with Ian last week and he's very well informed and knowledgeable on this (and many other things regarding LF and MF cameras)


andrew

jon.oman
3-Nov-2010, 08:31
Jon, .062 for just the cloth seems pretty thick to me. It would work, but I think it would be pretty stiff.

I have been thinking of building a 5x7 inch wet plate camera. The square bellows would be about 8x8 inches on the inside, and 9x9 on the outside. The length would be 18-20 inches. I figure that it may be stiff but usable. If not, I could always have one made at Turner Bellows! I'd like to try it at least.

jon.oman
3-Nov-2010, 08:39
By the way, the DIY guy has a number of videos about making a bellows. Here is a link to the overview:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=svarzaru#p/u/1/6maMPxFX_H0

There are six or more videos. I found them to be good.

Jack Dahlgren
3-Nov-2010, 10:16
I would put the silver side in towards the ribs, so it won't be exposed in the bellows. The silver is a urethane coating, so I can't see how it could flake. It is very flexible.



Why not put the silver on the outside? It would reflect heat, and we all know that there are convection currents and distortions due to hot air density differences created near hot surfaces - like a bellows in the sun.

I don't see the need for a bellows to be black on the outside.

sully75
3-Nov-2010, 16:08
bummer. It seems that for any price there is no really thing lightproof fabric that anyone knows about?

jon.oman
3-Nov-2010, 19:29
I found (but lost) a thread on another site that said to Google 'organ bellows'. It seems that they make a very thin, light tight fabric. Cloth on one side, and plastic on the other.

sully75
9-Nov-2010, 12:36
Just spoke to the player piano people and "Nylon Sheeting Rubberized Cloth" is not 100% lightproof. She said that if you hold a flashlight up to it, you can see little pinholes in the weave. She said that she thought it would be 100% with a backup layer.

She said this would work:
Rubberized Cloth- 100% cotton nainsook bonded to natural rubber
For individual Key Bellows- .008 thick- 57" wide sheet- per yard SH653 $ 64.00 yd. np

sully75
9-Nov-2010, 12:40
For the sake of conversation, what is too thick. .015" .020" ?

I have found a cheap bbq cover plastic material that is .006" and about 98% lightproof, and a vinyl coated fabric at the fabric store thats .016" and about 98% lightproof. Two 98% layers should add up to about right for lightproof, but is that too thick. If I take either material in a dark room and put a bright flashlight up to the fabric, I can just see it. But with both layers its good.

PS does anyone have an answer to this question?

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 12:44
Perhaps its a secret.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 13:40
For the sake of conversation, what is too thick. .015" .020" ?

I have found a cheap bbq cover plastic material that is .006" and about 98% lightproof, and a vinyl coated fabric at the fabric store thats .016" and about 98% lightproof. Two 98% layers should add up to about right for lightproof, but is that too thick. If I take either material in a dark room and put a bright flashlight up to the fabric, I can just see it. But with both layers its good.

Tim, it all depends on your application. Bag bellows can take even pigs skin, other cameras depend on the size and the number of folds. The old Century camera can handle what a Wista cannot etc.

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 13:51
GPS, I think were all talking about conventional folding bellows. In most peoples mind, I expect were talking 4x5 or 8x10 with average lengths. In my case, however I'm interested in building something about 16" square at the rear and about three and a half feet long.

So, that said anybody got any specifics or willing to cut open their new Ebony to mike their bellows? :rolleyes:

BarryS
9-Nov-2010, 13:59
...She said this would work:
Rubberized Cloth- 100% cotton nainsook bonded to natural rubber
For individual Key Bellows- .008 thick- 57" wide sheet- per yard SH653 $ 64.00 yd. np

I think $64/yd is too expensive. When you factor in the additional materials and the labor--getting a bellows made commercially starts to become a more attractive option. The Thorlabs BK5 cloth costs about $15/yard--even if you use two layers, the cost is reasonable. There are three issues with BK5--a single layer is not 100% light tight, it doesn't cement well using 3M spray adhesive, and it's a little more reflective than I'd like as a bellows interior. I've used HH-66 brush-on vinyl cement for my Thornton-Pickard shutter projects, but a spray on adhesive is really needed for a bellows project. Two layers of BK5 are completely light tight and still very thin, but I haven't decided whether the reflectivity is a real problem. A very thin matte black cloth with a tight weave sandwiched with the BK5 might work.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 14:41
...

So, that said anybody got any specifics or willing to cut open their new Ebony to mike their bellows? :rolleyes:

Why would they do something like that? How do you think the firms producing bellows do it? They use simple calculations. Even you can do the same. Count the number of folds, multiply by the fabric thickness, add a safety margin and there you go. The number of folds is also calculated from the camera's construction and your needs.

sully75
9-Nov-2010, 14:48
I think $64/yd is too expensive. When you factor in the additional materials and the labor--getting a bellows made commercially starts to become a more attractive option. The Thorlabs BK5 cloth costs about $15/yard--even if you use two layers, the cost is reasonable. There are three issues with BK5--a single layer is not 100% light tight, it doesn't cement well using 3M spray adhesive, and it's a little more reflective than I'd like as a bellows interior. I've used HH-66 brush-on vinyl cement for my Thornton-Pickard shutter projects, but a spray on adhesive is really needed for a bellows project. Two layers of BK5 are completely light tight and still very thin, but I haven't decided whether the reflectivity is a real problem. A very thin matte black cloth with a tight weave sandwiched with the BK5 might work.

Hi Barry,

Someone told me that Bk5 isn't particularly durable. Or at least that he thought it might not be. What do you think?

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 14:51
If we just did our own thing, all alone, by ourselves, in complete isolation, what would be the point of this forum?

BarryS
9-Nov-2010, 15:02
Hi Barry,

Someone told me that Bk5 isn't particularly durable. Or at least that he thought it might not be. What do you think?

I think there are 100 year old cardboard bellows still in use. :) I've seen bellows made from a lot of materials and I have no reason to believe BK5 isn't durable enough for a bellows. Will it last 50 years? No idea, but it's a thin rubberized or vinyl-coated cloth--not sure why it would be worse than any other similar material.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 15:16
GPS, I think were all talking about conventional folding bellows. In most peoples mind, I expect were talking 4x5 or 8x10 with average lengths. In my case, however I'm interested in building something about 16" square at the rear and about three and a half feet long.

So, that said anybody got any specifics or willing to cut open their new Ebony to mike their bellows? :rolleyes:

Again, it won't help you to get new Ebony bellows specifications. Your super camera would have its own specification needs for the bellows. If you wanted to use the "conventional" Ebony bellows fabrics you could be for a rude surprise...;)

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 15:26
Is not trying to avoid that rude surprise, the point of this thread?

And may I ask, what might that "rude" surprise be?

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 15:33
Is not trying to avoid that rude surprise, the point of this thread?

And may I ask, what might that "rude" surprise be?

- Not if you simply intend to imitate a different camera's bellows specifications.

- The fact that your camera requires different bellows specifications because of its different dimension and the consequent different specific demands on the bellows construction.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 15:53
Is not trying to avoid that rude surprise, the point of this thread?

And may I ask, what might that "rude" surprise be?

A different size of bellows demands different strength of its fabrics and its stiffeners. The given combination has its own carrying power (for the weight of the bellows) - what is enough for smaller bellows can be insufficient for other sizes. And if you change the material of the stiffeners their thickness can also change and with it the fabrics+stiffeners sandwich thickness. Not to speak about the different width of the folds - a result of the different camera frame dimensions etc. etc.
Calculate bellows can be a nice mental exercise where you discover several mutual dependences of the individual constructional elements...:)

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 16:29
I think there are 100 year old cardboard bellows still in use. :) I've seen bellows made from a lot of materials and I have no reason to believe BK5 isn't durable enough for a bellows. Will it last 50 years? No idea, but it's a thin rubberized or vinyl-coated cloth--not sure why it would be worse than any other similar material.

Rubberised with natural rubber? In such a case the fabrics is not good for UV resistance and can have the tendency to stick together in hot weather. Moisture would also be detrimental.

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 16:48
GPS, so you are saying that a given manufacture of bellows, is using a different thickness material for an 8x10, and a different material for a 11x14, and a different material for 8x20 and a different material for 12x16 and a different material for 16x20? Somehow I don't think so.

The op's question was looking for a single fabric, we cant seem to find one. The geometry is easy, he is still looking for a piece of fabric. I am trying to help. What are you doing?

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 16:54
GPS, so you are saying that a given manufacture of bellows, is using a different thickness material for an 8x10, and a different material for a 11x14, and a different material for 8x20 and a different material for 12x16 and a different material for 16x20? Somehow I don't think so.

The op's question was looking for a single fabric, we cant seem to find one. The geometry is easy, he is still looking for a piece of fabric. I am trying to help. What are you doing?

Of course they use different fabrics and different materials for different bellows! How otherwise? Just check on them...:rolleyes:
Of course you cannot find the "best fabrics". What is good for one type of bellows is not good for all of them...:rolleyes:

You're trying to help? - good for you. Try harder...;)

Tim k
9-Nov-2010, 17:45
Ok you win. I'm done.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 19:55
Different fabrics must be used when there are big differences of the required bellows draws to say just one example. Thick fabrics cannot be used where small usable bellows draws are required. Thin fabrics cannot be used where big and long bellows are required, it would not have the necessary mechanical properties etc. etc.
Sometime I needed to go back to the construction table only because the bellows making firm told me they could not meet my specifications for that size of bellows. Later I knew what the technical boundaries for them are and what I can and cannot demand. It all has its logic. Sometime I simply found a different firm which had different materials with different technical possibilities.

GPS
9-Nov-2010, 19:56
Ok you win. I'm done.

It's not a question of winning. I'm just trying to - help. ;)

sully75
10-Nov-2010, 11:18
It's not a question of winning. I'm just trying to - help. ;)

I agree with Tim. I'm trying to find ONE usable fabric to make bellows with, but we haven't been able to find even that. So paring down individual fabrics for individual cameras is putting the cart before the horse.

GPS do you have a suggestion for a thin (and/or a thick) fabric for bellows that's 100% light proof, durable and hopefully not too expensive? That would be helpful.

GPS
10-Nov-2010, 11:41
Of course I have. Contact Custom Bellows in the UK and ask them if they can sell you their fabrics for your specific bellows. I think they will friendly help you. The bellows I have from them are made with thin fabrics 100% light proof. Not expensive at all. Satisfaction guaranteed.

GPS
10-Nov-2010, 11:49
I agree with Tim. I'm trying to find ONE usable fabric to make bellows with, but we haven't been able to find even that. So paring down individual fabrics for individual cameras is putting the cart before the horse.

...

In your OP you didn't mention the size of bellows you want to have. And already in the thread n.4 Steve correctly told you you need to choose the fabrics according to the bellows (camera) size. So why are you complaining that people who know about it try to steer you to the correct question in order to give you the correct answer? :(

sully75
10-Nov-2010, 16:33
In your OP you didn't mention the size of bellows you want to have. And already in the thread n.4 Steve correctly told you you need to choose the fabrics according to the bellows (camera) size. So why are you complaining that people who know about it try to steer you to the correct question in order to give you the correct answer? :(

I'm specifically complaining about you. Everyone else has been awesome. You haven't been able to suggest anything, other than contacting someone else. Done talking about it though.

GPS
10-Nov-2010, 17:24
I'm specifically complaining about you. Everyone else has been awesome. You haven't been able to suggest anything, other than contacting someone else. Done talking about it though.

Why would you look for a material which is not meant for bellows when you can get professional bellows material is beyond me. Especially when the choice of a correct material is of such importance in bellows making...:rolleyes: Myself I have bought the bellows fabrics from bellows making firms with no problem.
And what a difference does it make to contact a shop A or a shop B is also a mystery to me...:)

sully75
11-Nov-2010, 08:27
And what a difference does it make to contact a shop A or a shop B is also a mystery to me...:)

The world is a mysterious place...

evan clarke
11-Nov-2010, 08:40
Jack Deardorff showed an 11x14 bellows taht was 5 feet long when extended, I have a snapshot of him holding one end above his head while holding the other with his feet. .005" material would not be suitable for this camera bellows...EC

Mark Paschke
23-Nov-2010, 10:56
I found a guy in California that makes bellows, has for decades. He stated to make bellows for my Century Grand studio 11"x11"x 24" was $250. He said he uses a nylon fabric and the bellows are 100% usable and light "tight"

I have his phone# but lost his name and address, I will call and see if he gives me a brand name and type

aluncrockford
23-Nov-2010, 11:15
You might find it easier and quite possibly cheaper to get in touch with customs bellows

http://www.custombellows.co.uk/index.html

Ramiro Elena
23-Nov-2010, 11:27
I was quoted £178 for my Eastman View No.2 8x10 from Custom Bellows. I though it was going to be a lot more.
I would have to send in my old bellows so they can use the ribs for the new set.

(plus shipping)

Ole Tjugen
23-Nov-2010, 11:50
I agree with Tim. I'm trying to find ONE usable fabric to make bellows with, but we haven't been able to find even that. So paring down individual fabrics for individual cameras is putting the cart before the horse.

I have two cameras needing new bellows. Both need extremely thin material since they fold up very very tightly, but the stiffness needed for a 6.5x9cm KW Patent Etui is VERY different from that required for a 24x30cm plate camera! The Patent Etui needs to fold up tight and extent to only a little over 4"; the plate camera bellows folds to 1 1/2" and extends to almost 40" - with minimal sag.

Both of mine will get new bellows from Custom Bellows - they know what they are doing, and do it much better than I could.

Trying to find ONE usable fabric to make all bellows with is a waste of time and effort - unless you intend to go into the bellows-making business: I am sure you could have something made to order if you buy enough of it.

In other words: Tell us what kind of cart you have, its weight, number of axles, max load, axle friction, intended use and so on. THEN we may have a chance of advising you on what breed of horse to buy.

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 13:36
Trying to find ONE usable fabric to make all bellows with is a waste of time and effort

I don't understand the contention. It's a very simple matter to make a more rigid bellows by making a laminate of multiple layers of a very thin 'all-purpose' cloth, using a heavier material for the liner, and/or using heavier card stock for the pleat stiffeners. I used the old Porter's cloth to make bellows for everything from 6x6 folders to 10x12, both traditional pleated bellows and bag bellows. It was very adaptable. Better too thin than too thick.

I wish the Porter's cloth was still available. I did try going straight to the manufacturer but Porter's would not tell me who their supplier was.

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 13:55
I don't find any contention in Ole's statement. Quite the contrary - it's simply useful information. Especially if you know that many modern bellows do not use card stiffeners at all today. They simply use different bellows materials with different material characteristic.

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 13:57
Contention: a point advanced or maintained in a debate or discussion. In this case, the contention was that it was a waste of time to find one material for all bellows. That has not been my experience with the many formats for which I've made bellows.

You say modern bellows do not use stiffeners in the pleats- do most do away with the liner material as well?

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:00
Why is it so difficult for some to understand that there is a different material for different bellows?

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:02
Contention: a point advanced or maintained in a debate or discussion

Thanks Colin, I just misread it...

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 14:06
Why is it so difficult for some to understand that there is a different material for different bellows?

Why make things more complicated than they need to be? Especially for a DIY project?

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:09
...

You say modern bellows do not use stiffeners in the pleats- do most do away with the liner material as well?

You edit as I answer...:) I said "many"...
Now, most is relative but the liner has a different function (to make the inner part matt black) and it can change also from one bellows to the other. Which does not change anything on the fact that there are different materials for different bellows sizes. What's so difficult in it to understand?

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:11
Why make things more complicated than they need to be? Especially for a DIY project?

Exactly! Why do the things in a wrong way (trying to find one only material for all sizes) when the correct way is not difficult?

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 14:15
Wrong way? If I'd followed your advice I'd still be looking for the precise material for each of my many home build cameras. One material worked perfectly well for all of them.

Just out of curiosity- is there a table somewhere that lists the proper bellows material gauge for each of the formats?

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:16
Some modern bellows materials are manufactured under great pressure and the sandwich behaves almost like a composite material - no need for card stiffeners any more. There are simply different materials for different needs, depending on the bellows size.

Ole Tjugen
23-Nov-2010, 14:17
Contention: A word difficult to understand for non-native English speakers, and also for the majority of native English speakers.;)

It would be nice if we could find ONE universal bellows fabric. Looking at my little stack of cameras, I believe there are at least ten different fabrics, with the most common being very very thin leather. The second most common is whatever it is that is being used by Custom Bellows; both my newer Gandolfi cameras and the Carbon Infinity have that. Before summer the antique 24x30cm camera will have the same. I have measured carefully, read reports, searched google, and found nothing else that can fold into 24 pleats and still focus a 47mm lens at infinity - which the current bellows can. While this is less than necessary in itself, a thicker bellows material simply would not allow the camera to close. So in the end I asked Camera Bellows (now Custom Bellows) if they could do it, and the answer was "of course, sir!"...

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:18
Wrong way? If I'd followed your advice I'd still be looking for the precise material for each of my many home build cameras. One material worked perfectly well for all of them.

What's wrong on using the correct material for different size of bellows?;)

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 14:20
What's wrong on using the correct material for different size of bellows?;)

No problem: links, please; sources and gauges.

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:21
Wrong way? If I'd followed your advice I'd still be looking for the precise material for each of my many home build cameras. One material worked perfectly well for all of them.

...

You see, I would not be able to construct many of my cameras if I tried to make them all with one and the same bellows material! As Ole explained for his cameras...;)

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 14:23
It's really not difficult to laminate a heavier liner to a thin, lightproof, universal dark cloth. Sorry that's not getting through. Good luck with your projects.

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:25
Contention: A word difficult to understand for non-native English speakers, and also for the majority of native English speakers.;)

It would be nice if we could find ONE universal bellows fabric. Looking at my little stack of cameras, I believe there are at least ten different fabrics, with the most common being very very thin leather. The second most common is whatever it is that is being used by Custom Bellows; both my newer Gandolfi cameras and the Carbon Infinity have that. Before summer the antique 24x30cm camera will have the same. I have measured carefully, read reports, searched google, and found nothing else that can fold into 24 pleats and still focus a 47mm lens at infinity - which the current bellows can. While this is less than necessary in itself, a thicker bellows material simply would not allow the camera to close. So in the end I asked Camera Bellows (now Custom Bellows) if they could do it, and the answer was "of course, sir!"...

Well, Ole, I have the same experience with Custom Bellows. When I got a negative answer from an American bellows manufacturer rather than changing my camera construction I contacted Custom Bellows - no problem with their bellows at all. Only because they used a more correct material!

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:28
It's really not difficult to laminate a heavier liner to a thin, lightproof, universal dark cloth. Sorry that's not getting through. Good luck with your projects.

There is nothing in the bellows manufacturing as a "universal dark cloth". Simply because different bellows sizes need... you know what, by now, don't you..:) ?

Colin Graham
23-Nov-2010, 14:45
Indeed. But since you won't supply any meaningful info or sources I guess I'll leave you to it.

I put a query into custom bellows uk, maybe they can sell some fabric or point me in the right direction to a supplier.

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 14:47
...
Just out of curiosity- is there a table somewhere that lists the proper bellows material gauge for each of the formats?

I doubt it. It is not only a question of the camera film format but a question of the number of pleats, the folds size and of other details that must be taken in consideration. Indeed, what some people think about as simple geometry is in fact an interesting and a multiple factors including technical issue.
When I once contacted a firm with one of my inventions, although interested, they couldn't manufacture it because they did not have enough expertise in bellows making. The other firm grabbed it - the knew how to make bellows professionally...

GPS
23-Nov-2010, 15:00
...
You say modern bellows do not use stiffeners in the pleats- do most do away with the liner material as well?

I said "some" modern bellows... And yes, some bellows do not use any liner either. Bag bellows come in mind... (and in a great measure industrial bellows too.)

GPS
24-Nov-2010, 02:15
Indeed. But since you won't supply any meaningful info or sources I guess I'll leave you to it.

I put a query into custom bellows uk, maybe they can sell some fabric or point me in the right direction to a supplier.


Of course I have. Contact Custom Bellows in the UK and ask them if they can sell you their fabrics for your specific bellows. I think they will friendly help you. The bellows I have from them are made with thin fabrics 100% light proof. Not expensive at all. Satisfaction guaranteed.

You see, I did supply the info, already in the post n.53. Even if you didn't read it you did the right thing I advised. Be happy. :)

Colin Graham
24-Nov-2010, 08:30
No luck, Keith from Custom Bellows said they can't re-sell the material. Don't really blame them, but disappointing nonetheless. I'll keep looking.

GPS
24-Nov-2010, 08:53
Let'em make your bellows then - you won't be disappointed neither by their price nor the quality!

Colin Graham
24-Nov-2010, 09:53
Yes, that did occurred to me. I got a quote for ~ $300 several years ago, which was almost as much as I spent on building my 5x12 camera and the 8 film holders for it. Not that the quote was unreasonable. Just seems extravagant when I know how to make them myself. I've made many many bellows, it's really just a matter of finding some thin light-tight cloth. Shouldn't be impossible to find. This is fun for me- it's what I enjoy doing. So it's not a waste of time at all. That player piano fabric mentioned earlier looks promising, if a little expensive.

Maybe custom bellows have gotten cheaper, but that's irrelevant to me. By all accounts they make a superior product at a very reasonable price, but again that's irrelevant. I just enjoy making things, not sending the work out. They would have to be cheap enough for it to feel like an complete indulgence for me to make them myself- I doubt that's likely in this economy. I just enjoy the craft of making as many components of the tools I use as possible.

I took this for a DIY thread, anyway. I think it's great that you send as much business as possible to custom bellows uk, but the complexity that's being tossed around here seems a little misplaced, and doesn't mesh at all with my experience. That's all I'm trying to say.


Exactly! Why do the things in a wrong way (trying to find one only material for all sizes) when the correct way is not difficult?

For the record my idea of the correct way is having 1 fabric that will handle all my projects present and future, not a separate fabric for each project I might build. I was able to do this with the cloth from Porter's Camera, and hopefully will again if I can find the manufacturer. Seeing as you can neither provide the proper gauges for different formats, or the resources to buy the materials, your 'correct way' is hopelessly vague.

Maybe the easiest way is just sending the work to custom bellows, but let's not shut the door on other options altogether.

GPS
24-Nov-2010, 10:17
Maybe if you asked Custom Bellows where they get their fabric that their source would sell you some quantity for you only? Just a thought as I once got fabric for bellows in that way. Would that be too complex for you? ;)

Colin Graham
24-Nov-2010, 10:17
I asked him, no luck. He did mention the minimum order was around 250 meters or so for them, which puts it out of my league.

GPS
24-Nov-2010, 10:23
I asked him, no luck. He did mention the minimum order was around 250 meters or so for them, which puts it out of my league.

Heck, how about a pool order from all those who love making bellows at home? :confused:

Ramiro Elena
24-Nov-2010, 10:24
Keith did mention they use a fabric specially made for them when I asked. Apparently it is a synthetic fabric that Ħs been treated to be lightproof.

Colin Graham
24-Nov-2010, 10:39
Great idea GPS, but I doubt I'd find many that love making bellows! I didn't much enjoy it until I figured out how to make them efficiently...I did like the challenge though. Anyway, I'm likely a freak in that regard. Cheers.

GPS
24-Nov-2010, 11:06
...I did like the challenge though. Anyway, I'm likely a freak in that regard. Cheers.

Not the only one, though. I still make bellows shades for all of my lenses on all my different camera formats. But their material is a wholly different matter...:) Cheers.

Colin Graham
24-Nov-2010, 12:21
Didn't mean to suggest that I'm the only one that likes a challenge, hope it didn't come across that way. Just that I might be hard pressed to find enough 'enthusiasts' to fill up an order for 250 meters of cloth.

sully75
26-Nov-2010, 12:55
You see, I would not be able to construct many of my cameras if I tried to make them all with one and the same bellows material! As Ole explained for his cameras...;)

The funny thing is you are still posting here but you have yet to recommend ONE suitable source for materials. You are going on about how there should be many, for different kinds of cameras, but your one recommendation has been entirely fruitless.

If you have the information, then, could you suggest at least one source (with a link - something that one could actually order) that would work for any camera? Just one suggestion? That would be awesome.

sully75
26-Nov-2010, 12:58
I have two cameras needing new bellows. Both need extremely thin material since they fold up very very tightly, but the stiffness needed for a 6.5x9cm KW Patent Etui is VERY different from that required for a 24x30cm plate camera! The Patent Etui needs to fold up tight and extent to only a little over 4"; the plate camera bellows folds to 1 1/2" and extends to almost 40" - with minimal sag.

Both of mine will get new bellows from Custom Bellows - they know what they are doing, and do it much better than I could.

Trying to find ONE usable fabric to make all bellows with is a waste of time and effort - unless you intend to go into the bellows-making business: I am sure you could have something made to order if you buy enough of it.

In other words: Tell us what kind of cart you have, its weight, number of axles, max load, axle friction, intended use and so on. THEN we may have a chance of advising you on what breed of horse to buy.

You missed my point. No one on this long running thread has been able to suggest ANY material that is light tight and available for making a bellows for any sort of camera. Bit, small, whatever.

If ordering a bellows from someone else is what you want to do, awesome. However, that's not what this thread is about.

GPS
26-Nov-2010, 14:21
The funny thing is you are still posting here but you have yet to recommend ONE suitable source for materials. You are going on about how there should be many, for different kinds of cameras, but your one recommendation has been entirely fruitless.

If you have the information, then, could you suggest at least one source (with a link - something that one could actually order) that would work for any camera? Just one suggestion? That would be awesome.

Instead of complaining, why don't you ask other bellows manufacturers if they could sell you their material? :rolleyes: My first bellows I made was from a material acquired in that way. Just don't forget the magic word...;)

sully75
26-Nov-2010, 16:10
Instead of complaining, why don't you ask other bellows manufacturers if they could sell you their material? :rolleyes: My first bellows I made was from a material acquired in that way. Just don't forget the magic word...;)

Instead of saying the same thing over and over again, why don't you read the post from the person who followed your advice and was rebuffed? I had a feeling that would happen, that's why I didn't waste my time doing it.

sully75
26-Nov-2010, 16:11
but thanks for proving my point. You don't know where to get fabric. Just admit it, no one else does either.

Bob Salomon
26-Nov-2010, 16:15
Have you looked here? Most are sandwichs. You could ask Micro Tools as well.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=camera+bellows+material&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

GPS
26-Nov-2010, 16:15
but thanks for proving my point. You don't know where to get fabric. Just admit it, no one else does either.


The world is a mysterious place...

:rolleyes:

GPS
26-Nov-2010, 17:09
Instead of saying the same thing over and over again, why don't you read the post from the person who followed your advice and was rebuffed? I had a feeling that would happen, that's why I didn't waste my time doing it.

How come you missed that I read his post?
What are your feelings now about trying to use Google to find a supplier for you? Just curious...

Mark Paschke
26-Nov-2010, 22:35
Honestly I really like the bellows I made with Zero light emission

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/IMG_1253.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/IMG_1264.jpg

all cotten Duck cloth exterior, Black poster board stiffs, interior drapery blackouts and flat black cotten inners. simplicity and functionality for a few bucks and 4 hours

GPS
27-Nov-2010, 06:39
While you may like your material on your camera, it is far, far from being "the best available bellows material". It is too thick for smaller cameras, such as those of the Wista class etc. There isn't anything like "the best available bellows material" convenient for all cameras. Even if there are those who cannot understand it while looking for their Holy Grail bellows material...

Mark Paschke
27-Nov-2010, 07:23
While you may like your material on your camera, it is far, far from being "the best available bellows material". It is too thick for smaller cameras, such as those of the Wista class etc. There isn't anything like "the best available bellows material" convenient for all cameras. Even if there are those who cannot understand it while looking for their Holy Grail bellows material...

Whats the dimensions of a Wista bellow? My bellows go from 24" to a compressed 2" and this is using fairly fat stiffeners and 2 layers of inner cloth. My thoughts are the perfect stiffs and Fabric paint/coating ( coating that sticks to fabric and remains flexible)would be as important as the fabric. Even drapery blackout cloth is about as thin as it gets for an inner if you find the right coating.
My guess is the best bellows material is whatever the original camera used as material. Duck Cloth is far from "thick" if you were talented with an iron, you could possibly skip stiffs or use a razor thin plastic for stiffs.

GPS
27-Nov-2010, 09:55
Without measuring the exact dimension - Wista have smaller folding edge and therefore uses more folds on the given length. That only would make the bellows thicker. Also, it uses rise movements for which thick compressed bellows would not be good. Not to speak about the pressure they would exert on the small Wista lens standard etc. etc.
Coating with paint only is not a good idea either - the paint is not made for folded corners for a longer time of use. For the same reason all bellows repairs made with some thicker paint often tooted as "it works fine" are just temporary unwise substitutes to properly repaired bellows.
Your illustrated camera goes fine with the bellows you have, no doubt, it was good work. And sure, the original camera material is what one camera can use - but often not a different camera model. There are horses for the courses...;-)

sully75
27-Nov-2010, 10:08
Have you looked here? Most are sandwichs. You could ask Micro Tools as well.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=camera+bellows+material&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Yup. Ad nauseum. Nothing seems to be currently available.

sully75
4-Jan-2011, 18:21
anyone have any ideas what to glue bk5 with? Just emailed the manufacturer but I'd be interested in any ideas. Seems really slick.

For the record, BK5 is not even close to lighttight with one layer (at least the piece I bought). Two layers though seems bullet proof. It seems to be the only option for a thin fabric right now.

Thanks!

Mark Paschke
4-Jan-2011, 18:40
anyone have any ideas what to glue bk5 with? Just emailed the manufacturer but I'd be interested in any ideas. Seems really slick.

For the record, BK5 is not even close to lighttight with one layer (at least the piece I bought). Two layers though seems bullet proof. It seems to be the only option for a thin fabric right now.

Thanks!Theres very little 3M super 77 spray adhesive doesnt stick to if properly prepared. Rubber cement? High grade vinyl electrical tape, I have bought it as wide as 4"?

Nathan Smith
4-Jan-2011, 18:56
...all cotten Duck cloth exterior, Black poster board stiffs, interior drapery blackouts and flat black cotten inners. simplicity and functionality for a few bucks and 4 hours

Looks good Mark, so do I understand correctly that you have 3 layers of fabric?

cotton duck cloth exterior
interior drapery blackouts (is this white?)
flat black cotton inners

Mark Paschke
4-Jan-2011, 19:15
Looks good Mark, so do I understand correctly that you have 3 layers of fabric?

cotton duck cloth exterior
interior drapery blackouts (is this white?)
flat black cotton inners
Yes, they didnt have any black drapery blackout so I bought some really tight weaved black cloth to cover the white. IMHO the blackout drapery cloth was a little bit of a waste. I'm up to about 25 Wet Plates shot, 4-5 outside and the inside are flooded with over 300 watts of light and I have seen no light leakage so far

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/steamtractorsmall.jpg

Outside with noon sun shining on belows, my very first outside picture I took

and Inside flooded with massive lights

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/ken_edited2.jpg

and longer exposure, more patient victim

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/laila62small.jpg

BarryS
4-Jan-2011, 20:00
anyone have any ideas what to glue bk5 with? Just emailed the manufacturer but I'd be interested in any ideas. Seems really slick.

For the record, BK5 is not even close to lighttight with one layer (at least the piece I bought). Two layers though seems bullet proof. It seems to be the only option for a thin fabric right now.

Thanks!

I've been running some experiments to find a suitable spray adhesive for BK5. The 3M Super 77 adhesive is good for a lot of applications, but the bonding strength isn't great with BK5. Based on the fact that a brush-on vinyl adhesive (HH-6) bonds BK5 nicely, I checked 3M's extensive line of spray adhesives to see if there was something comparable. I found 3M 80 Rubber and Vinyl spray adhesive works fairly well with BK5 and I think it's suitable for bellows use. The best bond is between the two vinyl-coated surfaces of BK5. The BK5 appears to be a vinyl coated nylon and vinyl-vinyl bond is much stronger than the vinyl-nylon or nylon-nylon bonds.

Jim C.
4-Jan-2011, 22:55
The HH-66 is the only way to go if you're using the Thorlabs BK5 fabric
I tried the #90, vinyl, and the #77 3M spray adhesives, they all failed
miserably with the BK 5 cloth and a bellows covering I don't recommend
any of the 3M spray adhesives.

Sully75, look over this thread in Resources -
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=58015&page=3&highlight=BK5

One layer of the BK 5 isn't very light tight but when used with a bellows cover
it is opaque.

GPS
5-Jan-2011, 00:59
I'm specifically complaining about you. Everyone else has been awesome. You haven't been able to suggest anything, other than contacting someone else. Done talking about it though.


Instead of complaining, why don't you ask other bellows manufacturers if they could sell you their material? :rolleyes: My first bellows I made was from a material acquired in that way. Just don't forget the magic word...;)


Instead of saying the same thing over and over again, why don't you read the post from the person who followed your advice and was rebuffed? I had a feeling that would happen, that's why I didn't waste my time doing it.


anyone have any ideas what to glue bk5 with? Just emailed the manufacturer but I'd be interested in any ideas. Seems really slick.

For the record, BK5 is not even close to lighttight with one layer (at least the piece I bought). Two layers though seems bullet proof. It seems to be the only option for a thin fabric right now.

Thanks!

Congratulations - you've learned your lesson...:)

sully75
6-Jan-2011, 09:39
I asked Thor Labs:

Thank you for your interest in Thorlabs and our product catalog. We would recommend a simple gorilla glue to attach 2 layers of BK5 together, it is somewhat crude but this has given us the best results. I hope this works for you.

Jim, have you tried Gorilla Glue? Just wondering.

Jim C.
6-Jan-2011, 21:33
I use Gorilla Glue for wood, it's a urethane adhesive that is rigid, it also foams slightly
not a glue for bellows. you need a flexible glue for bellows.
Thorlabs gave me that same info, I even sent them a email when I found out that the
HH-66 was very successful in gluing their BK 5 fabric, and it's flexible, I guess they
didn't read my email, nor do they care since they're not selling the BK 5 as a bellows
making fabric.

sully75
15-Jan-2011, 18:52
Hi Jim,

What do you use for the inner layers? Will HH-66 bind to any kind of board stock?

BarryS
15-Jan-2011, 21:22
I found the HH-66 is a pain to work with, since it doesn't spray on. The 3M 80 Rubber and Vinyl Adhesive does an excellent job of bonding BK-5, sprays on easily, and remains flexible. No idea why it didn't work for Jim, but I found it bonds every bit as good as the HH-66.

Jim C.
15-Jan-2011, 23:50
Sully75 - the Thorlabs BK5 is my inner layer, the outer covering is going to be
a book cloth, Sturdite book cloth from Talas to be exact. I cheaped out by using
the book cloth instead of my original plan of using leather.
The HH-66 worked on the paper board stock that I have and should work many
others.

BarryS - My initial glue tests were with the BK 5 and leather, none of the 3M spray glues
survived my peel test, the glue stayed on the leather but not on the BK 5,
I'm not sure what side you're gluing with the 3M stuff, I was gluing the shiny side of the
BK 5 to the leather.

sully75
16-Jan-2011, 13:36
Jim, how are you spreading the glue? I just ordered some.

sully75
16-Jan-2011, 13:37
And can I ask why you didn't just do two layers of BK5?

Jim C.
17-Jan-2011, 01:07
I spread the glue with a brush, word of caution is that the glue has a high amount of solvent in it so as well as having good ventilation while using the glue, it will also cause the BK5 to 'pucker' if you apply too heavy a coat, test on some scraps before you go whole hog with it to get the feel of what it will be like.

I didn't do two layers of the BK5 because I'm restoring a Kodak 2D and i wanted the red bellows.

sully75
18-Jan-2011, 12:29
Jim, I was thinking about using a roller. Your thoughts?

Jim C.
19-Jan-2011, 09:19
Never tried a roller, the brush made it easy for me to work with the ribs
but I guess a roller would work after the ribs are glued in place, you'd still have to
roll the glue in sections and lay down the BK5 because of the short work time the HH-66 has.

sully75
15-Feb-2011, 02:17
ok so I ended up making a set of bellows with 2 layers of BK5. I used a couple of sheets of Epson watercolor paper I had lying around, they had pictures on them.

I ended up just laying the bellows on top of the epson paper and pricking through them at the corners to get the pattern. Cut a gap between each fold. The challenge was getting the two sides to meet up and getting the two layers of fabric and the corners of the stifteners to all meet up nicely. It was all sort of half assed and a real frig but I got it together.

I used the glue mentioned above (hh-66? it's late, I can't remember). It worked well. Used a respirator, but did it on my kitchen table. The smell didn't last too long. I used some disposable foam brushes, which worked ok but they were really crappy ones and each one of them broke through the process. Decent quality foam would be ok.

No real complaints, the bellows look good, the glue worked well. Wish I had spent a little more time with layout, but they ended up working well. They pack down really thin and fit the camera (japanese 1/2 plate) that I was making them for.

Let me know if you have any questions. BK5 is not light tight with 1 layer but it looks pretty good with 2 layers (flash at full power doesn't show through with a digital camera and a wide open lens).

sully75
15-Feb-2011, 19:43
ok yeah, one thing, I would suggest you buy more glue than you think you will use. I didn't have a problem with puckering but I started to get pretty low on glue towards the end. There are some pockets that didn't really get saturated. I'm not sure the size I ended up buying, I think it was the 2nd smallest size but I wish I had had more.