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Brett Laker
17-Oct-2010, 00:08
Dear LF Photography Forum

I am a complete beginner to LF. ( I have 20 years experience as an amateur photographer and I have made pictures using medium format and, latterly, digital. I now want to move in LF as the format would give the detail I need in my landscape pictures-particularly in the middle and far distances. I also like the look of film too. And I am excited about getting back into film again, dusting off my Pentax spotmeter and starting to think again!

I started my research in LF about 2 weeks ago. I have decided to buy the Chamonix 045N-2 camera as it is within my budget and has probably more functions than I will need. I am now looking into a lens. Once I finally decide on the lens I need, I will then order the camera. This is why I am writing to the LF forum as I need help and advice about lenses. (And probably a lot of other advice too.....)

I have decided that I need a lens of around 90mm or 100mm as this would match the field of view that I like ( about 54 degrees I think or thereabouts).

So can I ask the forum about any lenses they could recommend around 90mm or 100mm focal length. ( I haven't decided a budget yet for this lens). Here are some other thoughts:

1. As I will be investing a lot of my time in LF, I do want to sacrifice quality for price.
2. I would prefer a lighter lens to a heavier lens as I will be carrying my gear on foot.
3. I would like a bitingly sharp lens.
4. I would like a bright lens.

I live in Japan and I know a LF photographer who is currently selling a Fujinon 90/5.6 SWD large format lens (USED). He I haven't seen the lens but he says that it is in superb condition. This being the case, do you think that this lens would fit my needs?

I would really appreciate some help here, as I feel that the lens is going to be the most important thing I buy and will have the biggest bearing on the quality of the images I can make( hopefully!).

Other things that I feel I need to know:

1. Should I buy used or new?
2. If I, at some point in the future, get other additional lenses, should I buy the same brands? ( I will be shooting monochrome for the most part).

Anyways, that is more than enough from me. I hope that I am asking the right kind of questions and I would really appreciate any advice or ideas or opinions.

With very best regards,

Brett

IanG
17-Oct-2010, 02:23
You wouldn't go wrong buying that Fujinon.

There's no bad modern Multi Coated 90mm lenses from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji, any differences are small and usually slight variations of coverage.

You trade brightness against weight, unless the whole kit is [u together with weight in mind the difference between an f4.5 lens and an f8 isn't that bad. When weight's a big issue people buy older 90mm f6.8 Angulons, but that's a step back to an older design and raises other issues.

Ian

Sdrubansky
17-Oct-2010, 02:48
You wouldn't go wrong buying that Fujinon.

There's no bad modern Multi Coated 90mm lenses from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji, any differences are small and usually slight variations of coverage.

You trade brightness against weight, unless the whole kit is [u together with weight in mind the difference between an f4.5 lens and an f8 isn't that bad.
...

Completely agree with Ian.

Check the 4x5" comparison chart on this site for coverage details.

On the New/Used debate I can say that for me there has never been a reason
to buy new since there are plenty of use modern lenses in excellent condition
being sold at reasonable prices.

Checking a lens and shutter in person I would argue is an invaluable advantage though.
Internet trading in this sense is always a bit of a gamble.

I ended up choosing a Rodenstock Grandagon 90mm f6.8, cheaper
than the f4.5 and with a 67mm filter thread that I could already cater for.

Good luck,
M

rdenney
17-Oct-2010, 13:20
Bright or light: Pick one.

You forgot to state your coverage requirements. If you want a 90 that will accept a lot of lens tilt or rear shift, then it will be bigger.

The wide-coverage 90mm lenses are all some variation of the double-biogon design. This includes the Schneider Super Angulon, the Fuji Fujinon SWD, the Nikon Nikkor-SW, and the Rodenstock Grandagon. All of these will be on the used market, and there is really no reason not to be shopping there without some compelling reason not to. And having money to spend isn't compelling, in my view. The Super Angulon and the Grandagon have also been marketed under the Caltar and Sinaron labels, which should not enter into the buying decision, except that the Caltar-branded lenses might be a bit cheaper. These lenses might also either be mounted in a Compur, a Copal, or a Seikosha shutter, and if they are running well, there is no reason for that to drive a decision, either. Each one of these came in two flavors--a faster design and a slower design, and usually the faster design also provided a bit more coverage, but at the expense of bulk and weight. The faster designs are f/4.5-5.6, and the slower designs f/6.3-8. There is no real reason to select one over the others, except condition and price, for the specific examples that you don't think will be too big or heavy to carry. If carrying is a goal, I would avoid the latest Super Angulon XL, which is significantly bigger than the SA 5.6.

The older models may be single-coated instead of multi-coated, but the effect of this will be subtle at best. Most people use, for example, the single-coated Super Angulons (made up through the late 70's or so) without hesitation.

The only one of the above I would be careful about is the old Schneider Super Angulon 90/8 that was mounted in a Compur No. 00 shutter. That shutter is now obsolete and the lens was a bit heavy for it in any case. Just make sure the lens is in a No. 0 shutter.

There have been some very compact Dagor-design lenses such as the Schneider Angulon and the Graphlex W.A. Optar, but these will probably not be "bitingly sharp" in the corners, and coverage for 4x5 will be marginal at best. These were made for use with press cameras, primarily. Following the common use of press cameras, all the wide-coverage 90mm lenses have been made for professional and exacting use, and all demonstrate consistently high quality unless they have been damaged.

Rick "who wants his 90 to allow substantial movements" Denney

Sdrubansky
17-Oct-2010, 13:36
Well said Mr Denney.

Policar
17-Oct-2010, 13:56
I don't know very much about lens design, but I will chime in since I just made a decision for myself...

I just bought a used 90mm f6.8 grandagon-n. I was worried this lens would be terrible since I'd read that the 90mm f5.6 Schneider XL is the only modern 90mm lens. When I actually looked at mtf charts, I was surprised to find that the cheap grandagon-n was comparable to or better than both the 4.5 grandagon-n and Schneider XL over a 160mm diameter circle and slightly worse toward the extreme edges of its image circle. Its fall-off is a bit worse (1/3 stop worse?), and its image circle is smaller, but still big enough for 5x7. The 90mm f6.8 is also pretty big (bigger than a comparable 135 lens). I wouldn't want anything bigger than that so I'm glad I settled for this low-end lens instead of getting something huge and pricey. It seems you pay for coverage and hype, and for general use, most 90mm lenses seem to have tons of coverage.

I will find out if it holds up in real life next week. Fingers crossed. It still may be terrible.

Also, just personal opinion, but I don't find ultra-wides as useful on bigger formats as I do on 135. If you're going to print large you may prefer a normal lens.

Robert Ley
17-Oct-2010, 15:14
I as well as many other LF photographers have found that it is difficult to translate the angle of view of a smaller format lens to 4x5. When I shot 35mm and medium format (6x7, 645) I preferred a wide angle lens (75mm in 6x7 and 35mm in 35) These lens worked best for my vision. In 4x5 I have found that I prefer a 135 or a 150. A good 150 will give you enough of an image circle that you will be able to more easily explore the movements of the camera.

These lenses are also much easier to use for a novice 4x5 shooter as a 90 requires a bag bellows or a recessed board in order to get any movements.

You can do as you please, but if it were me I would get a used and cheaper camera, definitely not a new camera. The first camera that you buy, will not be the last camera that you own.

Give yourself a chance to find out if you really like large format. Maybe even renting a camera and lens to see if you like it. LF is not for everyone.

When you are familiar with your camera and the different technique of large format then go to your 90 if you feel that you must have the wider angle. As for me, I got a 90 (90 f:6.8 Grandagon) and it is the least used of all my lens YMMV.

The best part is that the LF equipment that you buy today can be sold in the future without much lose in value.

jeroldharter
17-Oct-2010, 16:24
If you are in Japan, you can probably rent lenses or at least borrow your friend's Fujinon 90 lens and see how you like it. My experience is similar to Robert's in that the wide angle "equivalent focal lengths" when moving from 35mm to 4x5 are somewhat mis-stated in that 4x5 seems wider. That is due perhaps to the different shape of the film but also the use of movement.

If I were just starting, I would not get a 90mm lens. They are relatively hard to focus, especially at the edges which are dark. You miss the pleasant experience of a bright image on the groundglass. The 90 is too wide for many situations so I would find it very limiting as an only lens. The 90mm lenses that are lightweight also have less coverage for movements (and usually don't need a lot except for rise) so you won't learn to use movements as rapidly as you might with a longer lens.

So if you get a 90, get a second lens somewhere in the 150-210mm range. They are historically inexpensive now, are useful in a wider range of scenes, render a bright image on the groundglass, and offer more movements than you are likely to need.

Ron Marshall
17-Oct-2010, 17:36
The Fuji would be a fine lens.

You could go lighter weight with a Nikon 90mm f8, but you stated you want a bright image.

My only concern would be the larger filters, 82mm, required.

Brian Stein
18-Oct-2010, 04:01
Before you buy can I suggest you do the experiment of the frame finder: take a piece of cardboard, cut out a 4x5 hole in it and get a piece of string with knots at 90, 150 and 210 mm. Meander around looking through it at your scenes of interest. Hold it at the varying distance from the eye and see which one suits your vision.

Brett Laker
20-Oct-2010, 08:59
Dear Forum,

Thanks to everyone for all of the excellent advice provided. Much appreciated by the way. This will help me a lot in making a decision about which lens to get.

Again, many thanks,

Brett

halberstadt
24-Oct-2010, 12:16
You wouldn't go wrong buying that Fujinon.

There's no bad modern Multi Coated 90mm lenses from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji, any differences are small and usually slight variations of coverage.

Ian

Just on a technicality, I think there was one bad modern wide angle lens made by Rodenstock: the 90mm Geronar (think it was also sold as the Caltar "E" series

I have the 90mm f8 Super Angulon: very nice and sharp, but heavy and dim- there's usually a trade off between weight/size and brightness. I also have a Caltar 65mm f8 (super angulon), tiny and very dim with almost no movements. Sharp though.