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yeknom02
14-Oct-2010, 17:06
Hi everyone,

I'm in college (read: have little money) but I am looking to purchase my first large format camera because I love quality film photography. I'm only looking at 4x5's, but there's a chance I'd like a 5x7 if it's not too much more heavy and expensive. I have been looking for deals around eBay. I'd probably be doing a mix of portraits and various close-up still life photos. Anyway...

1. Is there anything you want to recommend me right off the bat? I'm thinking I might want a monorail camera, since I'm fairly strong and I want more control options. I probably want to avoid Crown/Speed Graphics because I've heard they have fewer available adjustments (?) I've heard Toyo and Calumet tossed around as possible options.

2. For the sake of argument, let's say I go with a Toyo or Calumet. Will I have to look for lens boards specifically made for the brand I buy, or will any lens board work, regardless of what brand camera I have?

3. Given that I'm going to want to do portraits, how will I trigger an off-camera strobe or flash? Is this a function of the camera or the lens?

4. Same question for film holders as lens boards - does brand name matter?

5. How much is all this going to cost me by the time I'm ready to take my first photograph? It may be a totally lost cause...

Thanks so much.

Jim Galli
14-Oct-2010, 17:18
If I were in your shoes I'd do the 5X7. Look for a Burke and James Grover, or even perhaps an old Kodak 2D. The reason I mention those 2 in particular is they're old, ugly, cheap, but have a long-ish bellows which you'll need for portraiture.

I find that 5X7 is the entry point for contact prints. 4X5 is just too small. A 5X7 contact print on Kodak AZO can be jewel like.

With the old simple cameras, you can make your own lens boards out of flooring samples you pick up at Home Depot or Lowes.

Most of the large format shutters have a built in flash sync that can trigger off camera studio lights. Later on you might go for ecclectic antique barrel lenses and the Grover is large enough to use what is called a Packard shutter. They can be made to trigger studio flash also.

Film holders are generic. They all fit until you get into European things and old timey 1890's stuff.

Cost? Plan to spend more than you should on your first outfit. You learn the bargains as you go.

Sirius Glass
14-Oct-2010, 17:37
I agree with Jim that 4x5 is a bit on the small side for contact prints in particular and the rest in general.

As far as costs, they will be much less than digital cameras. I have 9 cameras from 35mm to MF [read: Hasselblads] to 4x5s with lenses et al and set up a darkroom with a color enlarger, film processor and drum print dryer and all of that [B]still costs less than the top of the line Canon or Nikon digital body.

So there are the costs bounds. More than nothing and much less than $8,000 - $9,000US.

Steve

yeknom02
14-Oct-2010, 17:55
I should probably specify that I own both 35mm and MF film cameras, and can enlarge up to a 6x6 negative. I am interested in large format due to different perspective and focusing options. I walked away from the digital scene quite some time ago due to the cost and ever-changing equipment standards.

I'm hearing everyone on the 5x7 advice when it comes to contact printing, but isn't 5x7 film very hard to come by?

BrianShaw
14-Oct-2010, 18:16
... but isn't 5x7 film very hard to come by?

Yes, harder than 4x5 but there are several mailorder sources. Fewer emulsion options also.

I, personally, think contact printing 4x5 is OK. I just stand a little closer to view the prints. ;)

yeknom02
14-Oct-2010, 18:23
Let's continue recommendations assuming the smaller film size of 4x5 doesn't bother me, and that I'd prefer the wider availability of the film. Also, didn't Edward Weston contact print 4x5's? I can always scan until I get a 4x5 enlarger, anyway. (I know! Heresy!)

I'm still open to various camera model recommendations, and I also forgot to ask what focal length of lens I'd need. Let's assume I can only afford one for a while, which is probably true.

Oren Grad
14-Oct-2010, 18:24
I'm hearing everyone on the 5x7 advice when it comes to contact printing, but isn't 5x7 film very hard to come by?

B&W is not hard at all if you're willing to plan ahead and mail order. Color is difficult.

BrianShaw
14-Oct-2010, 18:26
Cambo/Calumet SCII/NX series. Affordable, more movements than you'll ever use, expandability options like bag bellows, etc., and affordable.

36cm2
14-Oct-2010, 18:27
Many of the suggestions you will receive here come from photographers much more experienced than I am, but I humbly offer the following (in order of your questions):

1. If you expect to shoot only in a studio environment (ie, portraits and studio still life), then by all means a monorail is a less expensive and most versatile choice. Your strength shouldn't matter, as it won't move much or on your back extensively. If you intend to hike with it (i.e., landscape) then field may be a better option. A Tachihara is an excellent entry-level field camera option. But again, if you stick to what you've suggested, then monorail is likely better. Personally, unless you really think you're into contact prints I would stick to 4x5 and enlarge.

2. There are a few varieties of lens boards, but you will easily find generic lensboards suited to your camera once you determine what camera you want.

3. Triggering of strobes is driven by a link to the shutter on your lens. Modern lenses will have a connector to attach the trigger cord to.

4. Film holders are more generic than lens boards. So long as you're using a standard film holder (i.e., not a film back designed for multiple sheets like a Grafmatic), then as long as it's light tight you should be fine.

5. Tough question, depending on tastes, how long you search (e-bay, craigslist, stores), how lucky you get. As a very general estimate based on major U.S. city prices, I'd say a decent older monorail, $300; a modern 210mm lens (good for portraits), $200; lensboard ($40); 10 plastic holders, $75; tripod ($100-$300);box of 50 sheets of film ($80); flash/ambient meter ($125); lighting equipment (anywhere from $300 for very basic to $2000 for very nice, but you don't need this); processing and enlarging equipment (sounds like you have it, otherwise $250 to much more); patience (a lot); frustration (a lot); enjoyment (enough to totally make it worth it). Don't let these estimates frustrate you. You can find whatever you need if you think hard about what you need, research it and look hard. Best of luck.

Leo

Mike Anderson
14-Oct-2010, 18:54
Hi everyone,

5. How much is all this going to cost me by the time I'm ready to take my first photograph? It may be a totally lost cause...


$500 for (cheap but perfectly usable) camera, lens, filmholders and loupe (camera $200, lens $200, filmholders $50, loupe $50).

On top of that you need some kind of light metering device, film and a way to develop it.

You'll get lots of good advice here - I'm just throwing out some rough numbers to start chewing on.

...Mike

yeknom02
14-Oct-2010, 20:55
...loupe $50)

Mike, I have a cheap loupe I picked up for reviewing 35mm negatives - is this the same thing, or are we talking something more sophisticated? I assume it's for determining focus off the ground glass?

Jim Galli
14-Oct-2010, 21:00
Mike, I have a cheap loupe I picked up for reviewing 35mm negatives - is this the same thing, or are we talking something more sophisticated? I assume it's for determining focus off the ground glass?

Should work fine. A 50mm Nikkor turned around backwards is one of the best. ;)

andreios
15-Oct-2010, 01:24
Good day to you all and thank the OP and all the others for precious know-how. I am in the same situation. I've abandoned digital some time ago and went completely analogue - I enjoy mostly my old battered barnack rangefinder and a rolleiflex in similar condition,but still I feel that I have to slow down even more, to concentrate on every shot - and shoot only a couple of shots at a time.

I too am considering only contact printing, therefore I am lurking around the ebay and some forums, but it is hard to find anything reasonably priced [read: cheap] here in Europe and shipping costs make all the overseas bargains far less interesting.

I am starting now with LF pinhole photography just to get myself into LF processing routine before I find a suitable camera.
But my question is - which 4x5 cameras are easily upgreadable to 5x7 (by which I mean both that the upgrade standard is easy to find, not an item coveted by raving collectors, and affordable)? I noticed this option by Sinar Norma, what about those Caluments and Cambos? I suppose a monorail is more easily upgradeable than a field camera...

Brian Stein
15-Oct-2010, 03:31
In looking at prices on ebay it looks cheaper to buy a separate 5x7 rather than upgrade. Having said that the options are:

1. field cameras that upgrade directly. The gandolfi variant comes to mind, but $++
2. field cameras that upgrade via a built up box attachment to the back. Some makers (Tachihara IIRC) went this way, this is usually the home made way
3. monorails mostly upgrade via changing the rear standard and bellows. Sinar and Arca definitely can do this, I dont know about cambo. You are correct this is generally pretty simple and usually simpler than a field upgrade.

In Europe do not forget the 13x18cm camera size. The only difference between 13x18 and 5x7 is in the film area of the holder, the outside dimensions are the same.

To the OP: 5x7 rocks! B&W film is readily available

andreios
15-Oct-2010, 03:43
I am aware of the european dimensions - i think it's the same with 4x5inch and 9x12cm.

So you think there is no point in getting a 4x5 for the learning process and that I shall jump on a 5x7 at once? It does make sense, though...

Bruce Barlow
15-Oct-2010, 04:01
I love 4x5 contact prints. But I do love 5x7 contact prints more.

Try learning to do portraits in natural light - they're lovely, and in my book about as much fun as large format gets, which is a lot! No lights to buy. Use an assistant with a reflector if you need to. You can use a meter from another camera - good enough - and better yet, learn to see light and know the right exposure without a meter. It can be done.

Jim Jones
15-Oct-2010, 05:36
Long ago there was some standardization in lens board sizes, and they were easily fabricated from plywood, hardboard, MDF, and other material. Many 4x5 and some 5x7 cameras used 4" square boards. Some of these were earlier Burke & James press cameras, B&J view cameras, Speed Graphics before the Pacemaker & Crown series, 4x5 Graphic view, and more. Now many cameras use proprietary metal boards. This may not be an important consideration for the OP now, but for some of us with many years accumulation of cameras and lenses, it is significant.

It can be fairly easy to adapt many 5x7 view cameras to 4x5 film. The back of a junked press camera can be mounted on a piece of plywood that replaces the original view camera back. If the 4x5 back is a Graflok model, it will also accept roll film backs. Using larger film on a 4x5 is more complicated.

Many lenses from the past 60 years are fine for beginners. My favorite is the 203mm f/7.7 Kodak Ektar (and its predecessors). It has almost cult status, and may be a bit more expensive than equally fine lenses. The ubiquitous Ektar 127mm f/4.7 often comes on 4x5 press cameras, but lacks enough covering power for some view camera use.

Ebay is a good source for the patient and knowledgeable buyer. An outfit that perfectly fits a buyer's needs may sell for less than the individual components. Also, a poorly listed item may cost much less than one with a complete and accurate description. Knowledge is power. Research the items offered on ebay, and check the seller's record. It may be a gamble, but less so than casinos and lotteries.

yeknom02
15-Oct-2010, 07:42
Oh yes, I forgot to ask - are shutters replaceable? If I found an otherwise good lens with a broken shutter, could I switch it out for a shutter that works?

Jack Dahlgren
15-Oct-2010, 12:15
Oh yes, I forgot to ask - are shutters replaceable? If I found an otherwise good lens with a broken shutter, could I switch it out for a shutter that works?

In many cases yes, but some are matched to the lens with shims etc.

The main reason you don't want to do this is that a lens with a working shutter usually costs less than a working shutter and a working lens separately.

John Koehrer
15-Oct-2010, 13:03
It's easier to get a reducing back for a 5X7 than to modify a 4X5 to use 5X7 film. Many 4X5's won't have enough bellows to focus closely with long lenses.
If the loupe you have is an 8X it's usable but something with a little less magnification may be easier to deal with eventually.

Weston contact printed from 8X10 negatives and enlarged from a smaller format that he shot with a Graphic/lex SLR, but I don't recall it being 4X5. I'm thinking 31/4X41/4. He Gave the camera to Tina Modotti around the time he left Mexico.

sully75
15-Oct-2010, 13:04
I think you might like Frank Petronio's 5x7 advertised in the classifieds. Too bad he sold the 4x5 back, if you are handy you could make a reducing back. Sweet camera (at least, I think it is).

stevebrot
18-Oct-2010, 13:34
Mike, I have a cheap loupe I picked up for reviewing 35mm negatives - is this the same thing, or are we talking something more sophisticated? I assume it's for determining focus off the ground glass?

Most loupes used for reviewing slides and negatives are in the 8x range. This is a little strong for use at the GG. I just retired my cheap Agfa 8x loupe for a much nicer Fuji 4x model new-in-box for $38 on eBay. Much, much, better...


Steve

yeknom02
18-Oct-2010, 13:48
Most loupes used for reviewing slides and negatives are in the 8x range.

Steve,

Yep, I just looked, and my loupe has a 8x magnification factor. I'm wondering why that would be too much. Isn't bigger better when trying to determine focus?

Jim Galli
18-Oct-2010, 14:04
Lots of good advice here. I thought of this thread when I saw this camera (http://cgi.ebay.com/140467159980) this AM.

You can experiment with some of the old brass lenses on your portraiture with the Packard shutter built in. 20" bellows lets you move right in on your portraits even with longer lenses. Packards can be modified to trip studio lights also.

stevebrot
19-Oct-2010, 22:36
Steve,

Yep, I just looked, and my loupe has a 8x magnification factor. I'm wondering why that would be too much. Isn't bigger better when trying to determine focus?

Not really. Too much magnification and you end up seeing more of the texture of the ground glass and less of the image. 8x is fine, but 4x works better for me. I was using my Agfa 8x and was pretty happy until I was at a group shoot and this fellow let me try his Toyo 4x loupe. The view was much better and much easier to use. I bought my Fuji 4x a few days later.


Steve