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View Full Version : So what speed to you expose _____ at?



Kevin Crisp
9-Oct-2010, 09:27
For those who don't actually do a film speed test with their meters, a little data....

I have 6 working meters at the moment. The Pentax digitals have both been checked over by Mr. Ritter in the last 3 or 4 years more of less. The Luna Pro was just converted to the 625 batteries and calibrated by Light Metric. The Master V had a new cell and calibration from Light Metric about 5 years ago. The Digi-Six and the Luna Star F are both as they came from Gossen.

Film speed 100, metering a light grey wall in open shade for a 1/125th exposure

Luna Pro f:8

Zone VI Pentax Digital f: 4 and 2/3

Pentax Digital stock f:5.6

Luna Star F f:5.6

Digi-Six f: 8 1/3

Weston Master V f:8

There are certain conditions when the two Pentax digitals will disagree by a full stop. I was a little surprised they were this close.

William Barnett-Lewis
9-Oct-2010, 09:47
This is why I only own one meter - an older Luna-Pro with hearing aid batteries. It's more a matter of consistency; once you know that 1/125 & f16 on a given meter/lens/film combination is what you like, stop sweating the little stuff and start shooting.

I'd actually be afraid of getting a spot meter; it'd probably set me back by years. :eek:

William

eric black
9-Oct-2010, 09:59
This is why I only own one meter - an older Luna-Pro with hearing aid batteries. It's more a matter of consistency; once you know that 1/125 & f16 on a given meter/lens/film combination is what you like, stop sweating the little stuff and start shooting.

I'd actually be afraid of getting a spot meter; it'd probably set me back by years. :eek:

William

agreed- get in a rhythm with a single meter and stick with it. Ive been using the same Pentax spot for over 10 years now- the only time its wrong is when it needs new batteries-= and then its very obviously wrong.

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2010, 10:15
This is why I only own one meter - an older Luna-Pro with hearing aid batteries. It's more a matter of consistency; once you know that 1/125 & f16 on a given meter/lens/film combination is what you like, stop sweating the little stuff and start shooting.

I have multiple meters but use the same principal. I use them one-at-a-time and havve never compared the readings my meters so total ignorance of the differences that probably exist is something I have not yet worried about. :D

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2010, 10:16
... but to answer hte question directly, I'd shoot f/5.6 even though my natural tendency is to consider Luna Pro to be the gold standard for general coverage meters.

jan labij
9-Oct-2010, 10:51
I have two weston masters one needs an overhaul, one works fine. If I had two working, I'd be worried one was more accurite than the other. And so, while composing the shot, hmm lets see one is more accurate zone 8-9-10, the other 1 to 6----mygawd, have I got the right one?

Heroique
9-Oct-2010, 11:52
If one uses a meter, it needs to be precise, not necessarily accurate. For example, if the meter repeatedly reads “12 ev” for a given (unchanging) scene/light combination, that’s good, it’s being precise – and that’s more important than whether “12 ev” is being accurate. Of course, who wouldn’t be proud of a meter w/ precision and accuracy, but generally, one can learn to work w/ a meter of sound precision.

The irony of course is that a meter that may never be accurate is better than a meter that is occasionally so.

Same for your shutter.

Same for your darkroom thermometer.

Ken Lee
9-Oct-2010, 15:27
Film speed 100, metering a light grey wall in open shade for a 1/125th exposure

What color is open shade ? Sky-blue ?

If so, did you meter a sky-blue wall ?

Sirius Glass
9-Oct-2010, 15:50
For those who don't actually do a film speed test with their meters, a little data....

I have 6 working meters at the moment. The Pentax digitals have both been checked over by Mr. Ritter in the last 3 or 4 years more of less. The Luna Pro was just converted to the 625 batteries and calibrated by Light Metric. The Master V had a new cell and calibration from Light Metric about 5 years ago. The Digi-Six and the Luna Star F are both as they came from Gossen.

Film speed 100, metering a light grey wall in open shade for a 1/125th exposure

Luna Pro f:8

Zone VI Pentax Digital f: 4 and 2/3

Pentax Digital stock f:5.6

Luna Star F f:5.6

Digi-Six f: 8 1/3

Weston Master V f:8

There are certain conditions when the two Pentax digitals will disagree by a full stop. I was a little surprised they were this close.


[RANT ON]
This is a text book example why the I-gotta-test-film-developer-paper crowd run around testing film and developers as if they were in search of the Holy Grail. They think they know better than Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Efke, et al, but, in fact, if they would test the meters and the cameras they would discover that there is nothing wrong with calibrating the equipment and then shooting box speed. One of the other mistakes that the I-gotta-test-film-developer-paper crowd makes is taking the light reading of the sky when the need the light reading of the subject.
[RANT OFF]

Jay DeFehr
9-Oct-2010, 16:11
I have one meter, a Gossen Luna Pro F, after selling my Pentax Digital Spot. I sold the spot meter because I never used it, and I rarely use my LPF, because I can usually guess what it's going to tell me. I do a lot of guessing/estimating/fudging. There are typically three values I need to establish: Light level (EV), contrast (SBR), and shutter accuracy. This is all done more or less automatically, by feel, and without naming numbers. I mean, I don't say, "This looks like EV 9, SBR 6, and my shutter is 1/3 stop slow, so I'll use f/8 @ 1/10, and give the neg +20% development". I suppose something like this is going on subconsciously, but it feels more like, "Aperture about here, shutter about here, and a little extra development should do". My Studio shutter is all feel, of course, and up here in the arctic, I've been using an old scale focus folder, stopped well down, and using seconds long exposures with the Bulb setting, by feel. I think it's possible to over-think, and over-measure exposure.

Sirius Glass
9-Oct-2010, 16:16
My Studio shutter is all feel, of course, and up here in the arctic, I've been using

Well that means that in the summer you are not worried about getting you chemistry cool enough to develop film. :D

ic-racer
9-Oct-2010, 17:54
As they say "man with one meter knows the exposure, man with two does not..." :)

Bruce Barlow
9-Oct-2010, 18:00
New Hampshire, Tri-X, bright sun, 1/60 at between 22 and 32. Take it to the bank. If the meter doesn't tell me that, it gets a spanking and a trip to Dr. Ritter. Both my Pentax Digitals agree, for now, so hey're in my good graces.

Sirius Glass
9-Oct-2010, 18:22
New Hampshire, Tri-X, bright sun, 1/60 at between 22 and 32. Take it to the bank. If the meter doesn't tell me that, it gets a spanking and a trip to Dr. Ritter. Both my Pentax Digitals agree, for now, so hey're in my good graces.

Ah, ... but what was the ISO? 125?

Steve

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2010, 20:27
Ah, ... but what was the ISO? 125?

Steve

I'd still shoot f/5.6 because I heard that NH banks tend to be small and don't keep much cash on hand!

ki6mf
10-Oct-2010, 06:28
I tested my Pentax V and my 756DR by metering a gray card in the same studio lighting. To get the same EV the Sekonic was set to ISO 200 and the Petax to ISO 300. My original film speed test was only with the Pentax!

JamesFromSydney
10-Oct-2010, 06:48
I pretty much always to a sunny f/16 check before shooting (easiest if you have an incident meter, and live somewhere with sunshine). In Sydney, I find my digisix is 1/3 stop over.

In your test, did they all have fresh batteries?

ki6mf
10-Oct-2010, 06:50
if the sun is shining in the morning i find that for max DOF I am around 1/2 second at f 45 2/3 or f 64 depending on the light.

Sirius Glass
10-Oct-2010, 07:28
if the sun is shining in the morning i find that for max DOF I am around 1/2 second at f 45 2/3 or f 64 depending on the light.

Is that your standard for all films? ;)

Steve

ki6mf
10-Oct-2010, 14:43
Is that your standard for all films? ;)

Steve

The comment was for B&W I shoot HP5 at ISO 300 if using my Pentax V and ISO 200 on my Sekonic 756 DR. More times than not if the sun is up and shinning this exposure is coming up often. I tend to not put Zone 3 in zone 4 or 2 to move tonal range around.

Kevin Crisp
10-Oct-2010, 16:58
To answer Ken's question, I got up early so I wouldn't say the sky had much color at all.

For another fun exercise, if you keep exposure records and use the same film a lot, write down just the apertures and shutter speeds and note how little variety there is. Could be 80% of your shots are at essentially the same exposure. Great to know when your meter isn't working.

Ken Lee
10-Oct-2010, 17:21
"I got up early so I wouldn't say the sky had much color at all".

If you're going to meter a gray wall, it's best to do it under Noon sun (or on an overcast day at Noon) - but not at dawn or dusk.

It's best to compare light meters against a neutral target, because the color of sunlight changes throughout the day, and varies with time of year, altitude, air quality, etc. Note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature:

"The house above appears a light cream during the midday, but seems a bluish white here in the dim light before full sunrise. Note the different color temperature of the sunrise in the background."

Light meters are like film: They have a non-linear response to the different colors of the visible spectrum, and engineers do their best to straighten that curve.

Like film, different brands of light meter exhibit different characteristic responses to color.

Some meters (like the Zone VI) have even been adjusted, so that their response will more closely match the spectral response curve of b&w films. That's a great idea - as long as you stick with b&w films with a similar spectral response.

Vaughn
10-Oct-2010, 18:27
I have a couple spot meters (Pentax Digital, and a V) and a couple Luna Pros. They all agree, but just don't ask me to check. My main spot and its back-up do seem to be within a 1/3 of a stop. Close enough -- more accurate than I am (and probably more precise, too).

There is a bulletin board outside my office I use to check students' camera meters (and ours, too). The board always reads (at 400 ASA/ISO) 1/4 sec at F16. Anything within a stop of that gets the Okay.

Kevin Crisp
10-Oct-2010, 18:50
OK Ken, I will repeat it at mid day.

Brian Ellis
10-Oct-2010, 19:46
[RANT ON]
This is a text book example why the I-gotta-test-film-developer-paper crowd run around testing film and developers as if they were in search of the Holy Grail. They think they know better than Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Efke, et al, but, in fact, if they would test the meters and the cameras they would discover that there is nothing wrong with calibrating the equipment and then shooting box speed. One of the other mistakes that the I-gotta-test-film-developer-paper crowd makes is taking the light reading of the sky when the need the light reading of the subject.
[RANT OFF]

Where did you ever get the idea that film speed tests are done to show that the person doing them knows more than Kodak, Fuji, et al or that anyone who does a film speed test thinks there's something "wrong" with using the number on the box? And if anyone is doing a film speed test by metering the sky they're using a method with which I'm not familiar.

Doremus Scudder
11-Oct-2010, 05:16
I own three Pentax digital spot meters (I keep one in Europe and two in the States). One is a Zone VI modified meter from years ago, the other two are off-the-shelf Pentax stock. (Number three was such a good deal, I couldn't pass it up...)

The two unmodified meters match exactly, the Zone VI meter is a third of a stop different (which I take into account when using it).

There are many reasons why meters do not agree, but, largely, within manufacturers, the meters will (and should) agree. The fact that different manufacturers use different calibration standards explains the difference in readings between brands (and modified vs unmodified of the same brand), and is one of the primary reasons for doing your own personal E.I. testing.

Once you have an E.I. for one meter, you can simply compare meters, note the difference and adjust E.I. for the meter you are using at the time.

Sirius: The main reason for doing developing tests (i.e., establishing the contrast you wish to have for a standard) is that ISO film speed tests are based on a standard developer and contrast index that is often not useful in practice. Most of us tend to develop to less contrast for "Normal" for our printing purposes than the ISO film-speed scheme would yield. This also affects film speed. So... It's not really a matter of "knowing better than Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Efke, et al.," rather knowing what Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Efke et al. are doing.

As a proud member of the "I-gotta-test-film-developer-paper crowd," that's why I test.


Best,

Doremus Scudder

Kevin Crisp
11-Oct-2010, 08:35
Ken: I've been thinking about it. I have read lots of instructions on how to do a film speed test and I've never seen anyone warn to only do the test around mid-day. Don't use incandescent or florescent light sources, sure, but not 'don't do it in the morning.'

Secondly, I make many more negatives in the morning and in the evening than I do in the middle of the day. So why test for mid-day?

Ken Lee
11-Oct-2010, 09:07
The fact that others have not mentioned it - which we would need to confirm by reading "all" the places where such testing is described - doesn't invalidate the principle, if the principle is right. The principle stands or falls on its own merit - in my humble opinion. I'll be the first to admit and appreciate it, if I'm wrong.

If we are going to spend several hours shooting, developing, scanning, or printing, making contact prints or enlargements - and if we know that light meters, like film, have a non-linear spectral response, then why would we purposely "ignore" the influence of color temperature ? The whole idea of calibration, is to get repeatable results against "standard" targets. That's why we calibrate monitors and printers in the first place, no ?

Once we know the standard, we can measure your deviation from the norm. Would we buy a light meter if we knew that the manufacturer made no effort whatsoever to conform to ISO standards ?

Do the instructors advise us to test our meters against subjects of peculiar coloring ? My memory is poor, and I may be wrong, but I don't remember reading that either.

RichardRitter
11-Oct-2010, 10:37
Ken: I've been thinking about it. I have read lots of instructions on how to do a film speed test and I've never seen anyone warn to only do the test around mid-day. Don't use incandescent or florescent light sources, sure, but not 'don't do it in the morning.'

Secondly, I make many more negatives in the morning and in the evening than I do in the middle of the day. So why test for mid-day?

Went ever I do test for film speed or to check the film I do it in the morning under the type of lighting conduction I work in. That way I know there is one less variable to cause problem when I an out in the field working.

So does the time of day matter yes and no. Some meters it will others it will not effect the out come.

Why own 5 meters. It is like the old comedy show where the guy wore 10 watches and had to check then all to tell the time.

Best light meter I ever owned was the inside exposure guild of a box of film.

Zone VI meters also matches color film. Color film response curves are very close to black and white films. Most films cut off point is in a narrow range.

BrianShaw
11-Oct-2010, 10:51
Best light meter I ever owned was the inside exposure guild (guide, I assume) of a box of film.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who still respected/used the box info. I often shy away from these discussions because everyone else is so much more knowledgable than me about the technology/scientific details. I'm planning on quoting you sometime in the future!

Re: multiple meters, I'm guilty of that... here's the reason. I once got out in the filed (many miles away) and forgot my meter. Sunny-16 or the data sheet (I don't recall which anymore) got me through OK but I then started keeping a meter in each camera case that I own in an attempt to never be without a meter again.

My secret, which I think I may said earlier in this thread (or maybe some other related thread) is never to use more than on meter at a time. Similar principle, I think, as you suggest with only owning one meter.

RichardRitter
11-Oct-2010, 13:05
Re: multiple meters, I'm guilty of that... here's the reason. I once got out in the filed (many miles away) and forgot my meter. Sunny-16 or the data sheet (I don't recall which anymore) got me through OK but I then started keeping a meter in each camera case that I own in an attempt to never be without a meter again.


I done that a few time. I have become really good at guessing the exposure.

The early photographers did not have meters and they had to guess.

Merg Ross
11-Oct-2010, 13:45
My first meter was a Leudi Extinction Meter. It taught me a lot about light, many years ago. Nowadays, I seldom rely on a meter to judge light for black and white photography. It seems to me, the most important aspect of field photography is the ability to judge light and expose accordingly. It takes practice, of course, but once you know your film, developer, and printing technique, the meter becomes a distraction. It slows up the visual process, at least for me.

Heroique
11-Oct-2010, 14:08
...I seldom rely on a meter...the meter becomes a distraction. It slows up the visual process...

Merg, you’re a public agitator!

A liberating one.

Metermorphism afflicts many of us here – the stubborn determination to see everything in terms of the spot meter. I claim no immunity.

jnantz
11-Oct-2010, 14:52
i never use a meter.
most of the time i am using a graflex slr.
i expose at about 1/15th S wide open.
it doesn't matter the lens.

Jay DeFehr
11-Oct-2010, 16:06
I'm happy to see other meter-independent photographers posting. I've known photographers who wouldn't make an exposure without a meter. There are more than enough unavoidable technical distractions inherent in LF photography without reducing the practice to an exercise in measurement and calculation. But,to each, his own.

Sirius Glass
11-Oct-2010, 18:08
Where did you ever get the idea that film speed tests are done to show that the person doing them knows more than Kodak, Fuji, et al or that anyone who does a film speed test thinks there's something "wrong" with using the number on the box? And if anyone is doing a film speed test by metering the sky they're using a method with which I'm not familiar.

At this website, most of the people that are doing testing are doing it as you do or to maximize the linear range of the film. Over five decades, including when I worked at Baker's Photo in Washington DC, I met many people who were testing because they thought that is what needed to be done, but had not a clue as to why they were doing it. They would tell me it was in Ansel's books or in BYTZ, but that was all they knew. Others automatically cut the film speed in half but do not know why. That was the intended target.

Recently, someone posted that they had only two rolls of HIE 135-36 and wanted recommendations for usage. The "testers" said to shoot both rolls at the same few subjects and bracket from EV 3 to EV21. Then this person would truly know what HIE could do. Of course there was no more HIE to buy, but the "testers" were right proud of their advice.

Steve

Maris Rusis
11-Oct-2010, 23:37
My first meter was a Leudi Extinction Meter. It taught me a lot about light, many years ago. Nowadays, I seldom rely on a meter to judge light for black and white photography. It seems to me, the most important aspect of field photography is the ability to judge light and expose accordingly. It takes practice, of course, but once you know your film, developer, and printing technique, the meter becomes a distraction. It slows up the visual process, at least for me.

I agree with Merg. The spot-meters I use may as well have blank ISO scales because I tweak them to read what I KNOW is the correct exposure. Clear sunny-day exposures for front-lit scenes are, for example, always 1/60 @ f16 (or equivalent) on Tmax100. If the meter reads different I adjust it until it delivers the right numbers.

I began years ago by setting the exposure first and then checking it with the meter but after a few hundred expose and develop cycles I realised that for regular subject matter in daylight the meter can stay in the bag.

BrianShaw
12-Oct-2010, 07:27
But, to each, his own.

Thank you.

For some reason I still feel better about using a meter... whether I follow it's suggested exposure or not. Shooting without a meter gives me a very queazy feeling, and sometimes unfortunate surprises when the film is developed.

Armin Seeholzer
12-Oct-2010, 08:10
2 of my meters the Bron FCMII and the Minolta Spot are always within a 1/10 f stop so it does not matter which one I take, the only one which is of by almost an f stop is my Mastersix from Gossen!

cheers Armin

Jay DeFehr
12-Oct-2010, 14:04
Thank you.

For some reason I still feel better about using a meter... whether I follow it's suggested exposure or not. Shooting without a meter gives me a very queazy feeling, and sometimes unfortunate surprises when the film is developed.

Brian,

I'd be less than honest if I said I never second guess myself and reach for my meter. More often than not, I'm reassured by my meter, but other times, when there's disagreement, I have to pause and rethink things. I'd also be lying if I said I'm never disappointed by my metered exposures when my film is processed. Working without a meter relaxes me, and I surrender to my instincts and best judgement, without the temptation to consult an external source. It's a commitment, to be sure.

Vaughn
12-Oct-2010, 14:21
I like the sunny 16 rule, but it does not tell me much under the redwoods. It doesn't tell me if the range of light values on the scene is 5 stops, 7, or 9 -- which I kinda like to know.

Without a light meter, I am sure that I would eventually be able to judge light well enough to photograph under the redwoods. It might even be an enlightening experience. I could probably go through my 20 years or so of notes and figure of how best to expose for every lighting situation I come across. But I will continue to be lazy and use the spot meter.:D

Jay DeFehr
12-Oct-2010, 17:17
I like the sunny 16 rule, but it does not tell me much under the redwoods. It doesn't tell me if the range of light values on the scene is 5 stops, 7, or 9 -- which I kinda like to know.

Without a light meter, I am sure that I would eventually be able to judge light well enough to photograph under the redwoods. It might even be an enlightening experience. I could probably go through my 20 years or so of notes and figure of how best to expose for every lighting situation I come across. But I will continue to be lazy and use the spot meter.:D

6, Vaughn, always 6. Unless it's foggy, then it's 5. ;)