What's wrong with my negatives...

[jdaivpmed]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I am wondering if anyone can give me some suggestions for an issue that I'm having with my negatives. As you can see in the attached photos there is some significant fogging present (yes, the negative in the photo is intentionally blank). This particular negative is Adox 100ART, but the same fog is present in all of my films and it doesn't seem to make any difference whether it's a fresh piece of film from the freezer or a piece that has been hanging out in a holder at room temp for six months or so. As such, I think this has to have something to do with me developing process.

My first thought was that it was inadequately fixed, but I have rerun the negative through an additional fifteen minutes of fixer and no change is apparent.

I'm developing in D-76, Stop Bath, Kodak Rapid Fixer (with Hardener), Hypo Clearing Agent, then water rinse, and finally a final rinse with Photo Flo.

All work is done in the Jobo and all chemicals are fresh.

Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

John IV

[Jim Michael]

What temperature was the fixer?

[jdaivpmed]

The fixer (and all chemicals) were at 20c on the first run. When I went back and "re-fixed" to see if that would clear the fog I didn't bother letting the chiller get the Jobo down to 20c so that run was more likely done at around 27c.

John IV

[MIke Sherck]

At a guess, is the darkroom in which you load and process your film really, truly dark? Perhaps it's getting fogged when you take it out of the box.

Mike

[Andrew O'Neill]

So, this is also happening with films other than the Adox? Mike S. could be right about your film loading area not being totally light tight. It's not the fixer.
I'm not familiar with this film, but perhaps it's b+f is higher than most films? I once had a box of Forte 400, and I was shocked at its high b+f. It still produced decent images.

[Darin Boville]

Sounds like you've run several batches of different films and they came out like this...if I were you I'd dump all the developer and try again with a different batch (as in, a different manufacturer batch number). Double-check/test the thermometer, too.

--Darin

[pkphotog]

As Andrew suggested try processing with another brand of film, like Kodak, to see if you still get the fogging effect.

Several years before Agfa went under I had the same problem with 5 brand new fresh boxes of Agfapan 100. I was surprised to see every sheet was fogged just like the ones in your photos. I had exposed hundreds sheets of Agfapan 100 prior to that and the b+f was fine for every sheet. A friend of mine also had a box of Forte that had the same problem. It may be that you ended up with a bad box of film like we had in the past. I only use Kodak film now and haven't had any problems with fogging or high b+f.

[jdaivpmed]

Mike,

I'm loading / unloading my holders in a Harrison Jumbo Tent, I don't feel like this is the source of the fog as it is extremely uniform across the sheet and this is the same tent that I've used for quite some time without running into this issue. Still a valid possibility and I'll look into this if I don't have any luck switching developers, etc.

Andrew,

Yes, the issue doesn't seem to be limited to the Adox films which is what makes me think that the issue is something in my chemistry. In fact the more I look at it the more I notice that the surface isn't smooth, it's not overly rough, but I'm wondering if perhaps its an issue with my water supply. When I remix my chemicals I will use distilled water to see if that makes any difference.

Darin,

Yes, you're correct, several batches with the same result, but all of these batches of film have been processed using the same stock chemicals (which were freshly mixed last week). The chemicals do seem to be the one common link though. I believe my thermometer is correct, I have two digital and one lab grade mercury and they're all within a degree of one another.

I think my next step is to remix all chemicals with distilled water and see what kind of results that will yield. If that doesn't work then I'll start testing with some freshly bought film stock. At least then we should know if it's a chemical problem, or a film problem.

Thanks for all of the tips guys.

John IV

[Stephane]

Have you been doing this for long?
Have you always had this problem before? If not, when did it start?
Are you developing in trays or daylight tank?
Are you diluting your d76 right?

You have to do simple test to locate where in the chain there's something wrong:

- first: test light leaking into your tent. Go in the dark (at night in a room), take a maglight inside and light it. see if any light leaks or not.
- test for fogged film: bring unexposed film to a lab. film must come back clear.
- once you know its not the film, test fixer: take one sheet from your freezer (exposed or not) and dunk it into freshly mixed fixer for 10mn (no hardener or anything else, do not develop first). You can do all this is daylight and see live the clearing process.
- if film not clear, problem in your developer: dilution not strong enough...

[jdaivpmed]

Good Morning Stephane,

When you ask if I've been doing this long, I assume you mean processing my own film etc. If that's the question then, I've been doing it for about fifteen years, but it's strictly a hobby, so I certainly don't claim to be any kind of an expert at it.

This is the first time I've run into this problem, it started about a week ago, nothing has changed in my procedures or work flow.

I'm developing in a 3005 drum on a Jobo ATL-2.

I'm mixing the D-76 according to the instructions on the packet just as I have always done. I do not re-dilute prior to use, but rather develop using the stock solution concentration.

Good idea on testing the tent, I will try that tonight and see if anything shows up.

Also good idea on testing unexposed film through a lab. I will give that a shot as well.

Thanks for the tips. I'll post back as I progress in troubleshooting.

John IV

[Jim Michael]

The odd thing I find about your fogging is the apparent uniformity. The developer concentration would seem to be an unlikely culprit since low concentration in your unexposed film test should result in less density. On your next test you could clip a portion and run it through fix only in order to verify lack of density in the film base, as Stephane suggested.

[Jan Pedersen]

Did you use the same lens on all exposures in question? This could also be severe under exposure. Could it be your lens shutter?

[jdaivpmed]

Jan,

No, the example film shown in my images were just "waste" sheets that I was using for testing so there wasn't supposed to be anything on them. The same fogging is however evident on the margins of my exposed negatives.

Thanks,

John IV

[Sirius Glass]

The same fogging is however evident on the margins of my exposed negatives.

That eliminates a camera problem. That leaves: film handling, film storage, and film development.

Steve

[brad martin]

I'd drop the tent. One little pinhole in the top of it would illuminate your film beautifully.

Process film in darkroom and compare. If you don't have a darkroom seal off bathroom at night - truly dark.

Like others have said - the uniformity of the fogging makes handling first suspect.

[Darin Boville]

It doesn't look like regular density in the neg to me. In the picts it looks like some sort of chemical damage.

--Darin

[jdaivpmed]

Good Afternoon All,

Well, I don't feel like I'm making much progress here. In an effort to narrow down the possible causes of the "fog" I decided soak a sheet of film in fixer to see if the problem remained or disappeared. Somewhat to my surprise it remained. This tells me that the problem is either 1. the film itself, 2. the fixer, 3. the hardener in the fixer or 4. the water I'm using to make the fixer solution.

My next test was to mix a fresh batch of fixer and dunk another sheet of film into it. This time I left the hardener out just to take that variable out of the equation. No joy, same fog as before.

I then decided that perhaps the film was the issue so I tried the same test on two different brands of film. Same results both times, although one did come out a little clearer than the other (this was ortho/litho film) both were still fogged.

I next mixed another batch of fixer using distilled water (previous batches were mixed with filtered tap water). I repeated the test and the result was the same as before.

I decided that perhaps I had gotten a bad batch of fixer (Kodak Rapid Fixer) so I went to the local camera store and bought another bottle which was several months newer than the bottles I had used out of my own supply. I repeated the test with no change in the results.

While I was at the camera shop I went ahead and picked up a bottle of Ilford fixer thinking that perhaps there was some chemical incompatibility between the film and the fixer. I mixed a batch of the Ilford, repeated the test and again found no change.

At this point I'm at a loss. I think I've manipulated every possible variable in this equation such that all have been eliminated and yet the end result is always the same.

Upon closer inspection of the "fog" I have to say that it almost looks like film grain, tiny granular particles that are only visible using a loupe. Could that be what I'm looking at here? I thought that if the film hadn't been developed there wouldn't be any grain left on the negative base.

Again, I'm open to any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks,

John IV

PS. I forgot to mention that at one point in my testing I decided that perhaps there was a problem with fixing for a full ten minutes so I reran the test by doubling the amount of time it took for the film to clear (about two or three minutes) and then pulled and rinsed it. You guessed it... it didn't make a bit of difference in the end result.

[Bruce Watson]

Is this "fog" nice and uniform? Corner to corner?

If it is, it might not be fog at all -- but retouching base. Made for the use of retouching pencils. Tri-X for example never looks completely clear because of this.

Not to worry if that's what it is. The uniform gray is easy to "read through" whether printing in the darkroom or scanning. It's a feature, not a bug.

If that's what it is.

[jdaivpmed]

Good Evening Brad,

Yes, it is 100% uniform and I suspect you may be right about what it is, I've just never noticed it being this pronounced (see photos at start of thread).

Thanks,

John IV

[evan clarke]

What are the other films?..EC

[bob carnie]

Try sending a couple of sheets out to another lab, person to develop.
No Fog , I would ditch the tent or look into your loading area.

[jdaivpmed]

Good Evening Evan,

One is ADOX CHS 100 ART, the other is Efke PL 25 M.

As a follow-up to Brad's comment about the fog being touch-up base. I just compared one of the "fogged" films to a sheet of unexposed (but processed) TMX and there is a huge differance in the density of the fog. I would have to say that it's clearly (no pun intended) the same as what is on the TMX.

John IV

[jdaivpmed]

Good Evening Bob,

I agree that having another lab run a test sheet is a good idea and I will probably do that tomorrow. I believe however that we've taken the tent out of the equation since these last few tests have just involved dunking sheets directly into fixer which in theory should more or less be stripping everything off of the base. In other words, the fog clearly isn't coming from exposure to light (or radiation for that matter) and with that being said, I suppose "fog" really isn't the right term for what we're dealing with here.

John IV

[evan clarke]

Good Evening Evan,

One is ADOX CHS 100 ART, the other is Efke PL 25 M.

As a follow-up to Brad's comment about the fog being touch-up base. I just compared one of the "fogged" films to a sheet of unexposed (but processed) TMX and there is a huge differance in the density of the fog. I would have to say that it's clearly (no pun intended) the same as what is on the TMX.

John IV


Hi John,
So you're saying the TMX is pretty clear?...Evan

[Darin Boville]

Good Evening Bob,

I agree that having another lab run a test sheet is a good idea and I will probably do that tomorrow. I believe however that we've taken the tent out of the equation since these last few tests have just involved dunking sheets directly into fixer which in theory should more or less be stripping everything off of the base. In other words, the fog clearly isn't coming from exposure to light (or radiation for that matter) and with that being said, I suppose "fog" really isn't the right term for what we're dealing with here.

John IV

But we haven't carefully examined light leaks/sources in your processing area...can you double check?

--Darin

[jdaivpmed]

Evan,

The TMX was a sheet that I just happened to have close by. It was processed several years ago so it's not a fair comparison to what is going on here. I just brought it up because there was the suggestion that the issue I'm seeing might just be the normal touch-up base. It is so much more dense than what I see on the TMX I don't believe that they could be the same thing.

Darin,

I can certainly check, but even if I do have a light leak there is obviously another issue at play here so I'm trying to tackle that one first and then start adding variables back into the equation. Since I'm not developing any of the film that I'm using in the tests I performed today (just dunking in fixer w/o developing) a light leak would have no affect on fog that seems to be present in the base.

Thanks,

John IV

[Robert Oliver]

in the first picture, the worst thing I see is too many files on your computer desktop!

sorry... couldn't resist

[jdaivpmed]

Robert,

You're certainly not the first to notice that. What can I say, I like for my files to be easy to access! Ha ha.

If it makes you feel any better, I do clean it off about once every six months or so!

John IV

[Jim Michael]

What was the ratio of fixer concentrate to water? What did you use to measure each? The same problem on two separate emulsions where no developer is involved points to inadequate fixation. You've eliminated the water being a problem by using distilled water. You've addressed temperature. You've addressed possibility of a bad batch of fixer concentrate. That leaves dilution. I don't have any experience with the two films you tested re the retouching base. I'm curious what the density is of the dried film after fixation.

[jdaivpmed]

Jim,

The Kodak fixer was mixed in one gallon batches which is how it's packaged (one bottle plus enough water to bring total up to one gallon). The Ilford fixer was mixed 1:4 per the instructions on the bottle. Measurement for the Ilford was done with graduates.

I used fairly large quantities while running these tests so I'm pretty confident that I didn't exhaust the fixer during any of the tests.

I can retry with longer soak times tomorrow.

Thank goodness fixer is cheap!

John IV

[evan clarke]

Hi John,
My point is that I think it's the base. I've used the PL25 before and I checked the negatives in my files, they have a cloudy base too. It doesn't seem to hurt the prints. I don't think that these smaller companies have the production clout to refine what they use for base like Kodak can...EC


Evan,

The TMX was a sheet that I just happened to have close by. It was processed several years ago so it's not a fair comparison to what is going on here. I just brought it up because there was the suggestion that the issue I'm seeing might just be the normal touch-up base. It is so much more dense than what I see on the TMX I don't believe that they could be the same thing.

Darin,

I can certainly check, but even if I do have a light leak there is obviously another issue at play here so I'm trying to tackle that one first and then start adding variables back into the equation. Since I'm not developing any of the film that I'm using in the tests I performed today (just dunking in fixer w/o developing) a light leak would have no affect on fog that seems to be present in the base.

Thanks,

John IV

[jdaivpmed]

Good Morning Evan,

I think you're probably right. I'm going to go by the lab this afternoon if I have time and have them dunk a sheet in their fixer. If it comes out the same as the one's I've been doing here then I think that will settle it.

Thanks,

John IV