How to frame a shot at night?

[Trub]

I'm new to LF but not to night photography. I went out this Saturday night and tried to shoot a large, well lit highway interchange here in Dallas, the High Five for you locals. When trying to frame the shot through my old 1947 Newton New Vue 4x5, I could not see enough to frame or focus the shot through the ground glass.

For those that shoot at night, how do you see through the GG?

[Darin Boville]

Option 1: Bring a small, LED flashlight under the darkcloth with you.

Option 2: Buy or rig up some sort of "sports finder" and don't use the groungglass at all.

--Darin

[rdenney]

As I recall, the Nue-View does not have a Fresnel to gather the off-axis light and aim it back at you. That might help, though you'll have to develop the details of how to attach it to the back of the ground glass. And there are brighter screens than that, though they are not cheap.

And how fast is the lens? How short? I love focusing my f/4.5 8-1/2" Paragon (which, coincidentally, was the only valuable thing I got out of my own long-ago purchase of a Newton Nue-View--I traded that camera in Austin back in the early 80's for something or other and did not mourn its departure). That focal length and aperture makes focusing easy, compared to, say, an f/9 process lens.

A bright laser pointer might help with focusing, but it won't help with composing.

In the end, you might have to make a wire-frame finder, using a rectangle of wire in the front and a peep-sight in the rear, with the distance between them set to provide the lens's field of view. Look for pictures of a Graflex to see examples of this concept.

Another option if you are patient is to set up the camera and compose and focus the image right before nightfall, and than have your dinner picnic while it gets dark.

Rick "whose night-time shots usually depended on luck" Denney

[Gem Singer]

It's not dependent on the age of the camera.

What matters is the maximum speed of the lens you are using.

f4.5, or f5.6 will give you a brighter image on the ground glass than f8.

A better quality ground glass or a Fresnel focusing screen will also help.

Sometimes you just need to aim the camera , focus on a point of light in the scene, and hope for the best.

[Trub]

The lens is a 90mm SA F8 so that makes sense to get faster glass as well as using fresnel glass.


Would one of these help/work on the Newton? I'm near sited so anything to help me focus would be very helpful.
http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Prisms-and-Viewfinders/1/sku-LF130012500000?r=FE

I been thinking of abandoning the Newton all together and going with a Speed Graphic, unless those have other night shooting challenges I'm not aware of? I just need to be able to see to focus and compose.

Thanks for the help.

[rdenney]

Would one of these help/work on the Newton? I'm near sited so anything to help me focus would be very helpful.
http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Prisms-and-Viewfinders/1/sku-LF130012500000?r=FE

No. With any lens, you have to view into the aperture, which means looking at an angle through the ground glass towards the visible opening in the rear of the lens. The shorter the lens, the more acute that angle will be. A Fresnel will aim those light rays back to your eye position, if it's ideal for the lens you are using. Only then will a device such as what you linked help with your problem.

There are options that work well for short lenses such as your 90, but they are too expensive, in my view, to be applied to a Nue-View. That camera is just a difficult beast to use, and before investing in improved viewing goodies, I would invest in a camera that is easier to use and to modify.

A Speed Graphic with an Ektalite Fresnel might help your problem, but even if it doesn't, it already has a wire-frame sport finder. If you want to stay with a view camera, there are many that would provide easier access to accessory Fresnel lenses and other goodies to help in your quest. You could, for example, trade up to a Calumet 45nx, which is a Cambo SC, and have access to page after page after page of goodies on ebay that are designed for it. One sees these cameras for sale often cheaper than a good Speed Graphic.

I use very short lenses myself, and invested in a Maxwell screen. That screen greatly improves the brightness and the ability to see into the corners with very short lenses, including a 65 and a 47. A 90 is a piece of cake. But it would have to be specially fitted to a NueView, and you have to question whether you like the camera so much you would be willing to invest that much into it. You could buy that screen for the Calumet/Cambo or a Sinar F and it would drop right in. Even the factory accessory Fresnel might solve your problem, and those are readily available for those other cameras.

Rick "recommending against putting lipstick on a pig" Denney

[BetterSense]

With a 90mm lens at apertures usually used, focusing should be easy to pre-set...maybe my standards are low but you should be able to pre-set the focus without having to use the ground glass. I use my speed graphic or box camera.

I live in dallas; I've shot at the 5-high area but the pictures never seem to turn out the way I want.

[cyrus]

I've resorted to placing a flashlight in the area I need to focus on, and then removing it once I've set the focus.

[Trub]

Rick "recommending against putting lipstick on a pig" Denney

The further down this path I get, the more I think a different body is what I need. I wanted to use my Polaroid 405 back on the Newton but I can't with out cutting down some of the back with a dremel tool.

I've been eying a Cambo SC II R with a GRANDAGON N 65 F4.5. I think I'll pull the trigger on it a trade in my other parts.

I found the Maxwell Precision Optics page but how much are they? It just replaces the ground glass?

Thanks again.

[IanG]

A fresnel helps enormously, I measured a 4 stop difference between two cameras sat side by side, one with a fresnel super screen the other with new plain glass screen.

The chances are that the screen on the Newton isn't the best anyway, I've just replaced or re-ground the screens on 5 pre-WWII German cameras and there's a significant improvement in brightness and useability.

So you're starting with a big disadvantage, even a cheap fresnel & better screen will be significant. That would help with focussing and the improvement in brightness is even better at the edges which helps composition.

However composition is more about just spotting whats at the edges, after a while it's instinctive.

Ian

[GPS]

If you're serious about the picture and you have some extra time for it you can go there while the light is still sufficient, focus the scene, mark the standards position and come back another time in the night.
If you know you need to focus at infinity you can focus the camera during daylight to anything at infinity, mark the standards, etc.
Other methods are similar - measure the scene during daylight with a rangefinder and focus the camera at whatever during daylight with the same distance, etc.
It doesn't work with spontaneous pictures but even there you can help yourself - you can use a simple measuring strip for a given lens with pre set distances and use your estimate for the scene in night etc.
The framing is easier - a frame viewfinder is easy to improvise.

[rdenney]

I've been eying a Cambo SC II R with a GRANDAGON N 65 F4.5. I think I'll pull the trigger on it a trade in my other parts.

I found the Maxwell Precision Optics page but how much are they? It just replaces the ground glass?

Putting a 65 on an Cambo SC is a lilttle tricky. Doable, but tricky. For me, it required both a recessed lens board and a bag bellows. The 47 was not doable at all, but that lens is quite extreme for 4x5 and beyond where most people will go. The 90 is fine with the bag bellows. Sounds like you are looking in the right direction.

The Maxwell standard 4x5 screen is in the range of $300. But before pulling that trigger, try out the Cambo as it is. It might already have a Fresnel, but even if it doesn't, there are cheapies on Ebay that work well enough. They just need to be put under the clips, between you and the ground glass. I only decided on the Maxwell after struggling with the Sinar accessory Fresnel with lenses shorter than 90. If you end up going that way, then, yes, the Maxwell comes as two sheets that replace the existing ground glass.

Rick "who has been down a similar path" Denney

[Trub]

On the phone with KEH to place my order. I'm going to get the Cambo SC II and a lens board for the 90mm I already own and see where I'm at after I shoot some frames.

Chris "Thanks Rick Denney for his help" Burt

[rguinter]

I've never had any trouble focusing at night. Although I've done mostly city scenes where there are discreet light sources that can be focused.

Anyway there are two things you can do:

1) allow your eyes to dark adapt for about 10-minutes before attempting to focus. Complete dark adaptation takes about 40-minutes but the adaptation curve approaches an asymptote.

2) whether you're my age and need them, or not, buy yourself a pair of cheap reading glasses at the pharmacy. I bought a pair with +2.75 add and they work wonders under a dark cloth... especially at night.

Cheers. Bob G

[ki6mf]

Ditto what Cyrus said. When the foreground subject is really dark putting a light on it gets your focus right! Remove before shooting!

[wfrascher]

If your subject doesn't have eyes, try a laser pointer for focusing. I've use the pointer clipped to the base with longer lenses. Great for tagging the side of a structure in a picture. ;-)

[Bill_1856]

Wire finder.

[rguinter]

If your subject doesn't have eyes, try a laser pointer for focusing. I've use the pointer clipped to the base with longer lenses. Great for tagging the side of a structure in a picture. ;-)

Probably OK for Texas.

But out here in the East near NYC, one is truly begging for some very serious trouble by shining a laser anywhere outdoors at night.

I highly don't recommend it. Bob G.

[Frank Petronio]

Not that the camera should matter, but a Newton is about the most painful camera ever made and any $100 Cambo or Calumet you get is going to be so much nicer!

With a 90mm on 4x5 you could pretty much guess at the framing, use a 28mm on a 35mm camera to guesstimate. Prefocus on a flashlight 50 feet away and at f/8 or 11 everything from infinity to 20 feet should be tight.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I go to the location just before nightfall. Set up and wait.