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tfraccolaphoto
25-Sep-2010, 17:28
Hello,

If anyone out there can help me I am growing out of 35mm and looking into 4X5 or 6x6.
Witch format is perffered, and what will i need to get started any help would be awesome.!!!

David Aimone
25-Sep-2010, 18:11
I'm fairly new to this, and lots of people have helped me, so I'll be glad to answer questions. I bought a 4x5 Chamonix in April, and just purchased a 6x6cm medium format camera. Sheet film on the 4x5 and 120 roll film on the 6x6.

What did you want to know exactly???

Gem Singer
25-Sep-2010, 18:21
Since this is your first post, how about introducing yourself.

What is your your photographic experience level?

Are you interested in color or black and white imagery?

Do you process your own film?

Do you print in a darkroom?

These are a few of the things we need to know before we can make a recommendation.

Most of the folks on this forum have moved up from 35mm, to medium format, to large format.

jp
25-Sep-2010, 18:26
I'm liking 4x5 and 6x6 both right now. I tend to use 6x6 for B&W "candids" and people stuff. 4x5 for nature/landscape/experimental stuff.

tfraccolaphoto
25-Sep-2010, 19:47
I have been shooting film really trying to pay attenion and learn about it for the past 6 or 7 years. I was someones assistant who shot a little 4x5 here and there but moved pretty much to digital.I am more interested in color i do live in the middle of the rocky mountians. I do shoot black and white mostly in the winter tho because not to much color out here in the winter its pretty much WHITE. I process my own black and white film and print my own black and white hoping to get into color sooner than later. Thought about scanning my film. But i really want a 4x5 set up just not sure where to start.

ac12
25-Sep-2010, 20:48
If you can swing it, BOTH.
4x5 and 6x6 each has advantages and disadvantages.
Think of them as tools, use the right tool for the job.

For me the biggest practical difference is logistics. A 6x6 MF camera is a lot easier to transport than a 4x5 monorail camera.
Next is setup/shooting speed. I can setup for a shot faster with a 6x6 MF camera than a 4x5.

Having said that, I do have both 6x6 MF and 4x5 LF.
I got the 6x6 first, and built the kit; body, wide, normal and tele.
Now I'm working on my 4x5 kit. I have a body and a 150 normal lens.

One "problem" is how do you print? A 4x5 enlarger is BIG and harder to find than a 6x6 MF enlarger. But if you plan to scan the negatives, then the enlarger problem goes away. I can print 6x6 but I will have to scan the 4x5.

Daniel Geiger
25-Sep-2010, 21:43
I use Digi 35 mm (switched in early 2010 from film), and do 4x5" monorail. One more thing to consider in terms of what do you want to get out of it is, why switch to larger format? Is it "just" the larger image area to print larger? How large? or do you also like the idea of placing the focal plane independently of the image plane?

For me MF is neither fish nor fowl, so don't have it, don't miss it. It neither has the speed and macro capability of 35 mm (just shot some slime molds at 5:1 as well as some garder snakes in Washington state), nor the ability to place the focal plane where I want it with 4x5" (shoot some scenics and small outdoor still lives there as well). If anything I'd consider 8x10" for the even lager chromes, but the quickloads are just sooooo handy.

In 4x5 land, the next question is view camera or monorail. I chose monorail for the wider adjustment options, and the modularity, but accept a bit longer set-up and take down. I use an ArcaSwiss classic compact, with three bellows, a bunch of rails, about 8 lenses, about 50 lb to carry around. Do up to about 10 mls/15 km day hikes with it.

hope that helps with your considerations.

John Kasaian
25-Sep-2010, 22:01
For what end? Will you have a dark room to use? What subjects?
For pure fun 4x5 is hard to beat, especially if you like futzing around in a wet dark room. You can get handheld shots wth a 6x6 but you can do just as well with a Speed or Crown Graphic IMHO.

AgentX
26-Sep-2010, 06:26
You can get handheld shots wth a 6x6 but you can do just as well with a Speed or Crown Graphic IMHO.

You're either the slowest handheld MF shooter on the planet or the fastest LF handheld shooter...


Personally, if I was moving up in size from 35mm, I'd have to consider a few things:

If I was processing and printing film myself, what workspace is available? Processing 120 and 35mm is virtually identical. Processing LF can be similar if you use a combi-plan or whatever, of course, but not quite the same, and tray-processing or even BTZS tubes require a fully blacked-out space for at least momentary parts of the sequence.

Enlargers available for the appropriate format? Or do I want to only make small contact prints? (Which I can do without an enlarger for 4x5...could be an advantage for some home users...)

If doing color or having a lab process and print my b/w, who's around to do it?

How much money do I have? With MF, you can buy a $100 Yashicamat (or a $400-500 Rollei) to get started, throw some film in, and get to it. Use your 35mm tripod if you want a static setup. You might need a new reel for your processing tank, too, but that's it. And with the setup, you can shoot fast, slow, handheld, tripod, whatever.

With LF, you're going to need a LF camera setup, several film holders, facilities or a dark bag to load them, a suitable tripod, cable release, dark cloth, processing equipment (could just be trays, mind you) etc. Doesn't have to be a huge cost but can be a more elaborate acquisition altogether.

Do you want/need the imaging capabilities LF cameras can afford you, or just a better-looking negative?

It's pretty easy for LF users to eschew MF, but in reality, not too many people have looked at great work with a Hasselblad and thought, "Man, what inadequate image quality! This is junk..." But LF is a different beast altogether, and simply can do things the Hassy cannot through movements.

It's up to the user to decide what capabilities he wants...again, if the goal is simply higher image quality, my vote is MF to start with. If the user wants to explore the capabilities of a camera with movements (or is dreaming of large contact prints and sees himself moving up to even bigger formats in the future...), and has the resources and infrastructure, LF is a great thing.

tfraccolaphoto
26-Sep-2010, 07:24
I really want to shoot large format. But by the sounds of it i need to start with medium. Now what is everything I need and where can i get it i dont want to spend alot of meney for my first camera because lets just say i like to see how things work.(taking it apart). I do want to shoot a slide film that seems to be peoples prefrance and thats all i shot 35mm for color prints. My B&W will be developed myself I have somewhere i mail all my slide film and they do a awesome job. I have a rollei that i have used a couple times but not so much there is not enough options i am looking for more options than a TLR or possibly a little better TLR.

Jack Dahlgren
26-Sep-2010, 08:53
I really want to shoot large format. But by the sounds of it i need to start with medium. Now what is everything I need and where can i get it i dont want to spend alot of meney for my first camera because lets just say i like to see how things work.(taking it apart). I do want to shoot a slide film that seems to be peoples prefrance and thats all i shot 35mm for color prints. My B&W will be developed myself I have somewhere i mail all my slide film and they do a awesome job. I have a rollei that i have used a couple times but not so much there is not enough options i am looking for more options than a TLR or possibly a little better TLR.

No you do not have to start with medium format, though it sounds like you already have. I don't think 4x5 slide film is the best place to start though. It is expensive and not very forgiving on exposure. Start with Black and White and when you get the operation of the camera and exposure correct, then move into it.

jan labij
1-Oct-2010, 09:21
Why can you shoot as fast with a 4X5 as a MF camera? If your fingers are as big as sausages that's when. But you can shoot more shots quickly with most MF cameras, if that's what you are interested in.

joselsgil
3-Oct-2010, 12:53
Hello,

If anyone out there can help me I am growing out of 35mm and looking into 4X5 or 6x6.
Witch format is perffered, and what will i need to get started any help would be awesome.!!!

From reading your first and other posts, I would suggest starting out with a medium format camera. Then moving up to a large format camera later if you are comfortable and feel a need to move up. If you don't think a MF can shoot good landscapes, just look at the cover shot of Ansel Adams The Camera book. The cover shot was taken with a Hasselblad 6x6 camera. By the way, if you have not read that book or the follow up books, The Negative and The Print, it would be a very good investment in time and money to do so.

You can even skip a 4x5 camera later on and go to a larger size 5x7 or 8x10. Reducing backs are always available for these cameras. With the 4x5 you can also get a roll film back, there are several manufactures out there. This would allow you to shoot 120 film mounted on the 4x5 camera's back.

As for where to get the equipment when your funds are low. That is hard to say, as you didn't indicate where you live. If you live in North Korea, it would be harder to find photo equipment than if you live in New York City.

Good luck.

rdenney
3-Oct-2010, 14:01
Hey, if you want to shoot large format, shoot large format. Unless you are doing this professionally, doing what you want to do is the only standard you have to meet.

My advice is to just do it. Buy a monorail because good ones are cheap, buy a lens that is in the range of 135 to 210mm, and go make photos. Shoot black and white, since you have a darkroom, to start with. A camera, a lens, a couple of film holders, and a few trays are all you need to add to what you currently have (assuming you have a decent tripod already). Stick with well-known brands--they became well-known because they worked at some level. Learn what works for you.

If you find you never use it or hate using it, then after a while, sell what you bought, and go in another direction that interests you. Buying a camera is not a marriage--there is no penalty for later trading up to a sexier model, either more petite or more buxom.

Rick "when good used cameras are as cheap as they are now, there is no such thing as learning it the 'hard way'" Denney

Michael Cienfuegos
3-Oct-2010, 17:01
Buying a camera is not a marriage--there is no penalty for later trading up to a sexier model, either more petite or more buxom.

Rick "when good used cameras are as cheap as they are now, there is no such thing as learning it the 'hard way'" Denney

If only life would work that way. :o


m

jan labij
4-Oct-2010, 14:18
Maybe you could e-e-e-z-e into large format with a 4X5 press camera.

B.S.Kumar
4-Oct-2010, 15:04
Or you could e-e-e-z-e into LF with a proper LF camera and a roll film back. Best of both worlds?

Kumar

jan labij
21-Nov-2010, 15:54
BSK, I didn't think he was ready for 5X7, or larger yet.

mfratt
22-Nov-2010, 00:05
I have a 35mm Rangefinder, 6x6 Rolleiflex, and a 4x5 Monorail.

I used the Rollei for a while when I got it because it was a new toy, new format (for me) and a cool old German thing.

But once the newness wore off, I rarely ever grab for it anymore.

It allows me neither the spontaneity of 35mm, nor the precision of large format.

My 35 is easy and quick to shoot with. I generally take a few light readings before I begin using it, giving myself an idea of where middle grey, zone iii and zone vii will be, and won't take another reading unless I come across a critical shot or the lighting changes drastically. If I'm trying to get candids, I can use a high speed film, prefocus and shoot at f11-16 before my subject has a chance to react. I can have it over my shoulder and forget its there. I have 36 exposures per roll, instead of 12, so I can be much more liberal with my shooting (again adding to spontaneity). I usually print 11x14, and it can get grainy, but given the style of photos I shoot with this camera, I think that it adds to them more than it takes away.

With my 4x5, I'm diving into an involved, carefully thought out, cognitive process. I tend to pace back and forth looking at my subject to find the right shot before I even take my camera out of the bag. Set it up, compose my shot. I can use the movements to match the composition more closely to my visualization, I take multiple light readings, seeing where the zones will fall. I write down in my notebook if I need to push/pull that particular sheet, load the film holder, expose, then take it all down and move on. I really love this whole process, and if you think that you would too, then LF is the way to go.

They call medium format the "great compromise format." In my opinion, at least in my experience, anything that is a "great compromise" means that it does nothing particularly well. I find it difficult to be quick and spontaneous with, take the camera out of the bag, light reading, set aperture/shutter speed, remove lens cap, flip up hood, flip up magnifier, compose, focus, fire. Quicker than LF for sure, but it does almost nothing that I enjoy from the LF. The TLR design means you get paralax distortion (obviously not a problem if you don't get a TLR), so I'm never really sure where my edges are, especially working up close. There is no ability to move the film plane, so that means either shoot straight on or have converging lines. And the ground glass may seem big coming from a small format, but after using a 4x5 for a while, it just feels tiny.

Almost all my photos from the Rolleiflex have been kind of boring. Maybe I need to figure out a way to clear my mind from all the 4x5 and 35 mumbo jumbo before I use it, but thats just what I've observed so far. I've actually had more nice photos from my Holga than the Rollei, just because I use that camera out of spontaneity (I call it the Whatever Camera), despite having shot about a quarter as many rolls with the Holga. I also find that 12 exposure per roll is too few for me personally to be free to fire away, because really quickly I'll be out of film. On 35, I'll go away for a weekend with 3-4 rolls and be set, usually coming back with a roll or two extra.

Just a few more thoughts.
- Personally, I hate processing roll film in tanks in daylight, but I love being in the dark tray processing sheet film, but I'm just weird like that. I also like the control of being able to individually process sheets.
- I'm not going to tell you to not get a MF, because my experience is just due to my own personality. It may be great for you, but I think theres a lot more to be learned and a lot more fun to be had from a large format.
- I've only printed 6x6 up to 11x11", but at that size (where 35 starts to show its weaknesses), it is almost indistinguishable from 4x5 prints at 11x14" in terms or sharpness and grain.
- If you really want to get a MF, I'd say go with a cheap one to start. A Yashica MAT for instance. If you like it then move up, but don't jump into a Hassie (or a Rollei) or anything like that.
- Don't force yourself into thinking that 35 -> MF -> LF is a natural progression. They each do their own things differently. A 4x5 was actually the first film camera I ever shot with, processed and printed. I then got a 35 to mostly replace what I had used my digital for.

edit: I just read through the rest of this thread and realized that you already have a Rollei. Ignore my comments about getting a MF camera. Go out there and shoot with it. Get to know it. Print or scan your photos and see what you think of them. If you love it, then thats great, use it for all its glory. But if you really want to shoot LF, then don't hold yourself back. They're two different things, so if you enjoy them both, one will not replace the other.

B.S.Kumar
22-Nov-2010, 00:13
BSK, I didn't think he was ready for 5X7, or larger yet.

I don't think I mentioned 5x7 at all? I rarely shoot 4x5 any more - it's mostly 6x9 or 6x 12 with an adapter.

Kumar

jan labij
23-Nov-2010, 10:14
I know you didn't mention 5X7. I meant if you're really going into large format, 5X7 is the smallest LF. Of course, that was a little tongue in cheek reference about press 4X5's not being "real" LF

mfratt
23-Nov-2010, 10:54
I know you didn't mention 5X7. I meant if you're really going into large format, 5X7 is the smallest LF. Of course, that was a little tongue in cheek reference about press 4X5's not being "real" LF

5x7? Pfft. Anything less than 20x24 is pointlessly small.

Brian C. Miller
23-Nov-2010, 14:07
tfraccolaphoto, it sounds like your 35mm camera is a sophisticated model, with lots of auto features. Most medium format cameras, and of course large format, are manual-everything beasts.

You will need a light meter. I started out with a spot meter (measures little bits of a scene), but you can get by just fine with an incident meter (measures ambient light).

You will need patience. You'll have to form a personal routine when working with these cameras. Once you get your routine down, then they are quick to operate. Watch how fast Martin Schoeller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZTGXhWjAf4) works his Sinar 8x10.

I started with Pentax 6x7. I moved into 4x5 because there were so many landscape shots that would have been much better if I had movements. Is a MF SLR a problem for macro shots? Not if you have the right tools. I have bellows, a macro lens, and a reversing ring. While a Rollie can be used for macro, it won't be as good as LF.

If all you want to do with LF is landscape photography, then a good press camera will be wonderful. You don't need a lot of movements for most stuff, and the press cameras are cheap. Monorails are cheaper, but they are bulkier, so no hiking with them.

A 4x5 enlarger isn't that much bigger than a good MF enlarger. I have my enlarger on a cart, which I wheel into my bathroom. I blocked the bathroom window, and made the bathroom light-tight. If you can't have any light-tight space, then making real prints is out for you. You'll either have to scan the negatives or send them someplace to be printed.

But after all is said and done, the most important thing is this: have fun!

mfratt
23-Nov-2010, 15:07
Monorails are cheaper, but they are bulkier, so no hiking with them.
!

Bollocks. A decent size backpack will fit most monorails, even if the rail has to stick out a bit. My Linhof has an 18" rail, and it fits neatly into my $19 WalMart backpack. I wrap the dark cloth around the standards for a bit of protection. Hike all day long and its not a problem.

That said, a field camera would be much easier and lighter. Thats next on my agenda...

Kuzano
23-Nov-2010, 16:57
As Brian mentioned, he has a lot of bits to make his Medium Format a Macro.

The short of this aspect of MF is that fixed lens medium formats do not do Macro. Most won't focus closer than 3-4 feet.

You would be best to look for a medium format camera with removable, or interchangeable lenses, AND for which extension tubes or bellows were available accessories, or perhaps a lens reversing ring (again removable lens). Otherwise, you could look for a 2X3 monorail or field camera which would allow proper extension of the lens to achieve macro.

Ivan J. Eberle
23-Nov-2010, 18:57
Don't be so quick to dismiss medium format.

I have formats from 35mm film to APS-C digital to several 4x5 field cameras, and a 4x5 Sinar Norma. That all said, I also have a Pentax 645N that's easily my favorite camera to use. It's a very well thought out camera that's ready to shoot about as quickly as 35mm, and is just as hand-holdable. The viewfinder is a joy to look through for the extra real estate (especially compared to APS-C DSLRs!). The metering is superb so color transparency film is simple to expose properly. The lenses are fantastic and relatively cheap.

Truth be told, APS-C DSLRs are greatly preferable for macro and telephoto work because of the physics of longer optics, and due to the sophistication of Vibration Reduction and AF. For me 645 hits the sweet spot for ultra wide angle work. If I never had need to print bigger than 20x24, I might not ever need anything larger.

Sirius Glass
23-Nov-2010, 19:03
As Brian mentioned, he has a lot of bits to make his Medium Format a Macro.

The short of this aspect of MF is that fixed lens medium formats do not do Macro. Most won't focus closer than 3-4 feet.

You would be best to look for a medium format camera with removable, or interchangeable lenses, AND for which extension tubes or bellows were available accessories, or perhaps a lens reversing ring (again removable lens). Otherwise, you could look for a 2X3 monorail or field camera which would allow proper extension of the lens to achieve macro.

One advantage of using Rolleis as MF cameras is that you can go out shooting photographs with a wide angle Rollei, a normal Rollei, and a telephoto Rollei hanging on your neck and call it "Bling!" :p

Steve

Noah A
24-Nov-2010, 07:25
I'd go straight to 4x5. Medium format can be wonderful but it's basically just a bigger version of a 35mm camera. Don't get me wrong, I shoot 6x7 all the time and there are real advantages. Sometimes it's the perfect tool for the job.

But a 4x5 camera will be a whole new (learning) experience for you. You can buy a relatively inexpensive used camera and lens, give it a try and if you don't like it you can always sell it. Or if you find it a bit too slow to work with you can dump it for an MF system. I think every serious photographer should try large format, at least for a while.

A view camera will teach you about camera movements and about how to take your time and compose a photograph. It will teach you discipline. You need to think since you'll probably only have a few shots per day. It's a great way to work and I'm sure that shooting large format has made me a better small- and medium-format photographer as well.

I've shot assignments with everything from early digital SLRs to 8x10 color negs. I've made some compromises and now I shoot nearly all of my professional documentary work with a Mamiya 7 (6x7 medium format) and a 4x5 Wista VX. Both systems are relatively small for travel, and both produce incredible image quality even for large color exhibition prints.

I'm partial to metal field cameras. I got a great price on a used Wista 45vx that is tough, flexible and easy to travel with. But you can probably get an even better price on an older monorail or even a speed graphic. The great thing about large format is that the cameras and lenses are not brand-specific. So if you buy a cheap camera to start out and decide to move up later, your lenses, film holders, etc. will all still be usable. You won't be tied to a system like with 35mm.

Just do check the condition, especially the bellows, of any used camera you buy. Sometimes a seemingly good deal can turn out to be not so much of a bargain.