Strange thin, metal film holders at photo store

[BetterSense]

At the photo store, I saw these Voightlander things, that were like single-sheet filmholders. They were for 4x5 film, made all of metal, and had a darkslide and everything, but they were only the thickness of 2 layers of sheet metal. It looked like they were for a certain kind of camera or designed to go into a special back. Any ideas what they were for/from?

[IanG]

These are more likely pre-WWII 9x12 plate holders. Yes they are thin and unfortunately there wasn't a standard so there's at least a dozen variations :D

German 9x12 cameras were mainly portrait mode of course can be used on their side and although the difference between 9x12 and 5x4 is slight the difference in camera size is amazing., The German camera's are smaller better designed fit in a pocket . . . .

And then you get the Patent Etui !!!!!

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/etui06.jpg
Top right, neg size is just a cm less wide length about the same as the Crown Graphic, one's heavy the other light both had the same lens :D

Ian

[Arne Croell]

As Ian said - pre-WWII (single) plate holders, in this case probably for the Voigtländer Bergheil. One can fit sheet film with the proper adapter frame in the holder, as mentioned in the parallel thread. And again, as Ian mentioned, there was no real standardization. Its not that each camera had their own holders, but there were about 4 common variations (plus about twice as many uncommon ones); the main differences were the exact outside dimensions and the shape of the edges to hold it on the camera. The Voigtländer is fortunately common as it used the "Normalfalz" (standard rabbet) which was also used by Zeiss, Balda and a few other manufacturers.

[Steven Tribe]

Ian has cheated a bit as he choose the patent KW 9x12cm for his photo comparison! This was a good deal more petit and lighter than the run of the mill German 9x12's.

[Ole Tjugen]

The KaWee Patent Etui that Ian shows folds up thinner than other 9x12cm cameras, but even the Voigtländer Bergheil is ledd than 2 inches thick when folded.

[IanG]

OK here's fair, this is how gross other German 9x12's were :D

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/etui03_sm.jpg

To many Frankfurters and that awful German beer makes a Rodenstock camera fatter, but still less than 2" thick :)

All are thin compared to their US competitors and many fell between the two, a few are a bit thicker.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

And as a German invented X-rays, the metal film holders were planned to protect our valuable negatives in those nasty machines at airports.

[BetterSense]

Well, they definitely had film in them. I pulled the darkslide open on one of them and it had a sheet of something labeled "Ansco Safety film". I didn't measure it; my impression was that it was 4x5 but it could have been a slightly different size I suppose. Are these holders of any use nowadays?

[IanG]

It may be a 5x4 film holder they are less common, or possibly Quarter plate. There was no internationally agreed film/plate holder standards until 1946. Film & plate sizes were standardised much earlier but there was a situation pre WWII were there was poor interchangeability between different manufacturers. This was worse in Europe where even Zeiss made cameras taking 4 different variations at one point

In 1946 the International Standards committee agreed to the modern International backs and film/plate holder sizes/dimensions based on film/plate holders that had become the most common in the US/UK. From that point new DDS holders for 9x12cm and 5"x4" have had common outside dimensions, the same goes for 13x18cm, 7"x5" (US size) and Half-plate (UK size), and 18x24cm & 10"x8".

Back to your question yes your holders would be of great use to someone, it's hard getting the correct holders to fit specific cameras. Ebay sellers often give little accurate information.

Ian

[Ole Tjugen]

Yet another possible filmsize is 10x15cm, the so called "postcard size" or "Postkartengrösse".

Voigtländer made these nice little plate cameras in 6x4.5, 6.5x9, 9x12 and 10x15cm sizes. Come to think of it, the 10x15cm is the only Bergheil I don't have. I do however have an adapter to use 10x15cm plate holders (Millionenfalz, no flange at all) in a standard 5x7" back. :D