PDA

View Full Version : Options for a lightweight folding 4x5 Camera



corgan4321
14-Sep-2010, 16:17
What are my options in terms of a good 4x5 camera that is lightweight and compact? In Alaska, I biked 20 miles with my Horseman monorail along with 20lbs of other equipment on my back. It was a bit painful to say the least. I'd be interested in getting a nice compact and sturdy camera for these situations.

Also, I don't want to spend more than $500.00 used so those Arcas are out of the question :)

Just interested in knowing what you guys are using and what I should look for or avoid.

THANKS!

Frank Petronio
14-Sep-2010, 16:19
There is a deal on a 4x5 Gowland in the classifieds right now, one of the lightest 4x5s ever.

corgan4321
14-Sep-2010, 16:34
Yeah I've been looking at that, but it doesn't seem like it would be very sturdy on the top a mountain with 20mph winds. Something with a stationary rear standard and a front standard that moves on a guide would be better for me.

Oren Grad
14-Sep-2010, 16:43
Yeah I've been looking at that, but it doesn't seem like it would be very sturdy on the top a mountain with 20mph winds. Something with a stationary rear standard and a front standard that moves on a guide would be better for me.

I've owned three different Gowland Pocket View cameras over the years. If it's in good condition, then properly tightened down it's going to be at least as rigid as a $500 wood-field camera, if not more so.

Of course, you might prefer the wooden camera for other reasons. For one thing, most of them will be be quicker and less fussy than a Gowland to set up and adjust for basic landscape use. If you're sloppy, a Gowland is easier to knock out of whack. But if you're a careful and deliberate worker in the field, a Gowland will deliver the goods.

Jim Graves
14-Sep-2010, 17:07
I agree with Oren ... the Gowland is small, metal, and easily sheltered from the wind ... just stand next to it. I think it is steadier than a lot of the wood folders. And, the weight trade off is substantial.

They are fiddly ... no question about it ... there are always trade offs for any gains ... there are no zero detentes and when you change lenses the front tilt/rise has to be reset ... but they have every movement on both standards (tilt, rise/fall, shift, and swing) and once you get used to them they are exceptional cameras for the price/weight.

I have two, one with a graflok back and graflex GG shade and one without (like the one for sale) ... I back pack with the lighter one and use the one with the graflok back around town. An Ebony is precise and locked in ... but a Gowland will go anywhere with you ... and with a little extra effort will return the same caliber of pictures (and some you would have never taken with the Ebony because you would have left the Ebony at home on that trip.)

Jim Graves
14-Sep-2010, 18:56
I just read Vaugn's post on this camera in the "For Sale" section and went back and re-checked both my cameras.

I need to correct a comment in my earlier post. My lighter camera (a "Calumet/Gowland" branded) (with a rear standard similar to the one in the sale section) only has tilt and swing in the rear ... but not rear shift and rise/fall (unlike my heavier one which is labeled "Gowland.") I am unable to tell from the pictures which version the For Sale camera is ... but it definitely appears not to have rear rise/fall.

Gowland was a small manufacturer and made several different versions of his cameras ... so it's important to ask specifically what movements there are.

Vaughn
14-Sep-2010, 20:24
Jim and all, I bought my Gowland new in 1984, give or take a year. The photo does look like that time period or older -- perhaps right before Calumet put their name on them.

Only swing and tilts in the back of these early models...but both just about on the axis, as are the same moments in front (with the addition of rise/fall and shift). I never seemed to miss those rear moments.

I rode 2000 miles on a pushbike with my PocketView for 5 months or so in New Zealand...that would be about 23 years ago. It did a great job in all sorts of conditions. While there, I took it backpacking with me through some of their temperate rainforests and beaches, and took day hikes to the top of a volcano or two. It also did a nice job for me in Aussie using a 6x7 roll back for color negs (visiting in-laws), and in a backpack for a few weeks of public buses around Costa Rica (4x5 B&W for that trip -- about 17 years ago).

It even made a couple 11-day backpacks down into the Grand Canyon when its owner's knees were much younger!

But it is not a very "manly-looking" piece of equipment. Not much of a chick magnet, but it might interest some of the smarter ones, though ;) While I have not used it much since moving to 5x7 and then 8x10, I plan on using it more this winter for a project. In the 25 years I have used the PocketView (and it has seen some heavy use!) the only thing I have had to do to the camera was to re-glue on the bellows in a small section on the front standard.

Instead of a camera weighing 3 to 5 pounds more, one can carry a few more holders...and a bag on a string that one can load with rocks/dirt to weigh down the pod.

Vaughn

PS...but there are some sweet wood field cameras, though!

eric mac
14-Sep-2010, 20:46
Go for an Anba Ikeda. My first 4x5 folder and I find it easier to deal with than my Zone VI camera. The only drawback maybe the smallish knobs which may be a problem with gloves.

Eric

Michael Gordon
14-Sep-2010, 22:06
I'd find some way to come up with a little more money and get a Chamonix 045n-1 or 045n-2 (http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html). Incredibly lightweight, compact, and sturdy. I own two, and sold my Ebony to buy them.

corgan4321
14-Sep-2010, 22:23
Yeah I've been looking at the Chamonix as a possibility.

Do the Toho Shimo FC45x cameras ever go cheaply or no? I'm guessing they are way out of my price range. Or maybe the Canham DLC?

And what about all those other Japanese wood cameras like the Wistas and such.

Oren Grad
14-Sep-2010, 22:34
Tohos aren't all that common used. Badger Graphic, which is a Toho dealer, happens to have a demo FC45x listed at the moment for $895, down from the new price of $1295.

With a bit of patience you can probably find a Wista for $500. Certainly a Tachihara. A Canham will be way out of your range.

Doremus Scudder
15-Sep-2010, 01:50
There are a lot of wood folders out there that will do the job for you.

I own Woodman and Wista DXs presently and am happy with both. The Chamonix looks intriguing to me as well.

FWIW, the Wista DX (get the one with rear shift, not the DXII with no shift which is a PITA) allows small lenses to be folded up inside it, saving space and protecting the lens. My Woodman, the Tachi, Toko, etc. do not. I'm not sure about the Chamonix.

Choice of lenses and carrying equipment can significantly reduce your load as well.

My backpacking kit is really small; Wista DX w/ Ektar 203 folded up inside, a 135mm Nikkor, a 100mm WF Ektar and a 240mm Fujinon A, six 52mm filters, Pentax digital spot meter, and a slug of Mido holders (I use regular holders for day hikes and take a couple larger lenses in place of some of the above). All this fits easily in a fanny pack, which attaches to or goes inside my backpack. It's ready to go when I get to my destination.

For day trips, I outfit with the above-mentioned fanny pack, a fly-fishing vest for accessories and the meter, and a small pouch for 6 film holders. Tripod goes in a hand or strapped on the bottom of the fanny pack.

Hope this helps some,

Doremus Scudder

Vlad Soare
15-Sep-2010, 02:42
FWIW, the Wista DX (get the one with rear shift, not the DXII with no shift which is a PITA) allows small lenses to be folded up inside it, saving space and protecting the lens. My Woodman, the Tachi, Toko, etc. do not. I'm not sure about the Chamonix.
The Chamonix doesn't, either.

ki6mf
15-Sep-2010, 04:07
If you do not need rear shift/tilt a Crown/Speed graphic could work. My graphic had a cleaned and reconditioned lens and shutter and it folds up into the box for carrying. I use a Shen Hao HZX II most of the time and occasionally use my Speed Graphic. If sounds like long distance transportation is important and I would look at one of the wood field cameras that completely enclose the billows and protect the camera mechanism similar to the HZX II or equivalent.

Rick Moore
15-Sep-2010, 04:49
In your price range, it would be tough to beat a used Tachihara or Ikeda. Both are excellent cameras. I have a Tachihara that is still working well after 32 years.

Check the bellows carefully, as neither camera mentioned has an interchangeable one. On a Tachihara, check that the front swing mechanism has not developed excessive looseness.

Neither camera is as sturdy as your Horseman, but both weigh under 3.5 pounds and if treated with a little respect, will last a lifetime.


--
Rick

NicolasArg
15-Sep-2010, 06:06
The other day I've tried my Shen Hao 45 in very strong wind on the shores of Nahuel Huapi, Patagonia, and it worked flawlessly. Actually the only trouble came from the dark cloth- I couldn't keep the damn thing over my head because of the wind (it was that strong). If you tilt well and keep the shutter speed at moderate levels, a field camera holds itself very well.
I've posted one of the test negatives here (just in case you are curious):
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=66570

Michael Gordon
15-Sep-2010, 07:48
Do the Toho Shimo FC45x cameras ever go cheaply or no? I'm guessing they are way out of my price range.

I'd stay far away from a Toho. I owned one briefly when it was the lightest and most compact thing around, but the fiddly-ness of the camera is superbly annoying and frustrating. To simply change from vertical to horizontal on the rear standard means partial dis-assembly of the camera. For the same weight and much less hassle and money, I'm still voting on a Chamonix :)

Drew Bedo
16-Sep-2010, 05:44
The Speed Graphics are sturdy and self-storing when used with compact lenses. Check back issues of View Camera Magazine for two articles on slight mods that give these press cameras front swing and tilt. Its not as universally flexible as your monorail, but it is defiantly a rugged package, and inexpensive enough that you won’t feel inhibited about using it in adverse conditions in the back country.

Other options: The Hobo or Photoman type cameras for rally windy locations. There will be no movements at all, but you will be able to get large format images in situations that would forbid the use of any camera with bellows. Hand-held shots are possible (up a tree or at the end of a climbing roap).

Still another option is one of the Polaroid conversions.. While there are again no movements, they pack up pretty small and can almost be a self-contained unit with a Grafmatic on the back. These are designed for hand-held shooting.

Brian Ellis
16-Sep-2010, 07:13
Light, sturdy enough to stand up to 20 mph winds, and under $500 are almost mutually exclusive. You can have light and under $500 (used Tachihara for example), you can have sturdy and under $500 (some version of the Calumet C-1 or a similar heavy metal camera), or you can have relatively light and probably sturdy enough to stand up to 20 mph winds (e.g. Linhof Technika V or later model) but under $500 is difficult.

As among the three, I'd suggest not worrying too much about the winds. Even the sturdiest of cameras is going to have a problem with the bellows and dark cloth flapping around in strong winds. So you'll have to carry something to shield any camera from that kind of wind and figure out how to deal with the dark cloth no matter how sturdy the camera otherwise is. Once you don't worry too much about the wind you have a lot of choices in relatively light (my definition of "light" is 6 lbs or less, preferably 4lbs or so) cameras that are sturdy enough for normal usage and cost under $500 used.

henrysamson
16-Sep-2010, 08:28
In your price range, it would be tough to beat a used Tachihara or Ikeda. Both are excellent cameras. I have a Tachihara that is still working well after 32 years.

Check the bellows carefully, as neither camera mentioned has an interchangeable one. On a Tachihara, check that the front swing mechanism has not developed excessive looseness.

Neither camera is as sturdy as your Horseman, but both weigh under 3.5 pounds and if treated with a little respect, will last a lifetime.


--
Rick

I "second" Rick's suggestion. I often backpack with a used Tachihara that I bought cheaply off of ebay many years ago. It folds with a 135mm Symmar (not an "S") lens attached. In that configuration it is smaller and lighter than a Crown Graphic with a similar focal length lens. Plenty of movement but not a lot of bellows extension (more than the Crown Graphic though). I'm not sure if this is typical but mine has a plastic ground glass which is pretty much indestructible. So when it is closed up the lens is protected and the entire package is quite rugged.

Henry

Steve Goldstein
16-Sep-2010, 08:37
How does the Tachihara compare in weight to the Ikeda? I hauled my Shen-Hao HZX-45AII around for a week in Colorado this past summer at 10,000-12,000 feet, and am also considering something lighter...

venchka
16-Sep-2010, 09:04
They aren't light. They don't have every movement known to man. They are stout. Built to take a licking and keep on tripping.
I would think that a Linhof Technika V or newer might be the ideal bash around off road camera.

imagedowser
16-Sep-2010, 09:19
A Zone VI. PM sent.

venchka
16-Sep-2010, 09:35
Grinning. Yep. I have one of those and a Technika V. I guess I'll flip a coin to see which one goes bicycle touring.

Oren Grad
16-Sep-2010, 09:52
How does the Tachihara compare in weight to the Ikeda?

I think the Tachihara is ~3.75 lb, the Nagaoka and Ikeda are ~2.5 lb.

Frank_E
16-Sep-2010, 09:58
the hierarchy of weights is the following from heaviest to lightest

Shen Hoa
Tachihara
Ikeda/Nagoka

here is an interesting article from a back issue of Popular Mechanics taking about the Tachihara and the Ikeda and the Nagaoka

I have a Nagaoka by the way…

http://books.google.com/books?id=d88DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=lens+board+for+Nagaoka+camera&source=bl&ots=AIHWpN7NtJ&sig=1VvT2QoM-VQIxHbk4ORXjkr6_pw&hl=en&ei=tWTaSuLGNNHslAe2-LChAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lens%20board%20for%20Nagaoka%20camera&f=false

engl
16-Sep-2010, 12:50
How about something like a Wista 45VX? All metal technical camera with relatively good movements, around 5 pounds, and available used at around 500$. It will also close with a lens mounted.

I do not have that camera but it seems to have a good reputation for quality and sturdiness. I researched it when buying my current camera, a MPP mk7. This camera too is nice in many ways, but it is heavy at 7 pounds.

Perhaps someone who has/had one can chime in about the Wista 45VX.

Rick Moore
16-Sep-2010, 12:57
I think the Tachihara is ~3.75 lb, the Nagaoka and Ikeda are ~2.5 lb.

That is what the current Tachihara's weigh. The early ones like mine, without the rear focus mechanism and sturdier rear folding hardware weigh about 3.3 lbs.


--
Rick

OldCrow
14-Oct-2011, 09:51
I have an Ikeda and it is simply as light as you would ever want it to be. Any lighter and it would feel like a child's toy. They are very well made and if they were taken care of will work outstandingly for many years. The craftsmanship is very easy to see.

Mine never sees use any longer since I shifted back to using a 1892 burke and james field camera and petzval lens. Yet when it was used, it was a great camera. I guess its time to sell it...

Ivan J. Eberle
14-Oct-2011, 20:45
The Super Graphic is a nice compact camera that has fairly generous moves. It weighs right around 5 lbs, but can be lightened considerably.

I had one and sold it. I kept a couple of Meridians. They are extremely rugged 5 lb cameras with a lot of room inside, to fold up and protect decent sized lenses while yet attached. As a matter of fact, I had 45B out this evening in Big Sur in a 20 MPH breeze.

mikebarger
15-Oct-2011, 06:57
I voting with the Zone VI crowd, light, cheap, and sturdy.

Mike

John Rodriguez
15-Oct-2011, 09:03
I've been really happy with my Toyo 45cf. It's metal/plastic/carbon, lightweight, sets up very quickly and folds with a lens in place. There's been a couple reports of adjusters pulling out if over-tightened, but mine has been rock solid and I'm not gingering it at all. Only downside is there's no back movements, but I'm ok with that as the wide angle image with the looming foreground isn't my type of composition.

Douglas Henderson
15-Oct-2011, 13:07
corgan,

I would suggest looking for a excellent condition Crown Graphic on Ebay--they are relatively cheap, beautifully engineered, keep a lens in place when clamped shut and are very fast to set up. In 4x5, I think all the elaborate movements associated with large-format photography are just not needed in most cases.

Doug

Gem Singer
15-Oct-2011, 15:03
The OP asked for advice 13 months ago (Sept.,2010).

Am I the only one wondering whether he has already found a camera to fit his needs?

Edward (Halifax,NS)
31-Oct-2011, 07:12
The OP asked for advice 13 months ago (Sept.,2010).

Am I the only one wondering whether he has already found a camera to fit his needs?
Gem, you are not the only one wondering. New answers are always welcome because there are many of us in the market for a small folder. When I get back to work I hope to pick up a Shen Hao or maybe a used Wista or Toyo. My CC400 is too heavy, too awkward and doesn't have an International back.

Edward

rjmeyer314
31-Oct-2011, 13:19
If you don't mind having a rail system, try a Bender 4x5 kit camera. My Bender with the short rail weighs about 2 1/2 pounds.