What Shutter would fit these cells - 1920 ish ?

[DanK]

Curious if anyone may know what shutter I should look for to fit these cells...

They are Manhattan Optical Emil Wide Angle Lens Cells...

Per VM, they were sold in cells, and "would screw into the customers own shutter" around 1920 or so...

I have both cells and the original case...

They look to be around 30.5mm diameter at the threads, measured with a ruler...

Does anyone know of a shutter this size, from the 1920's, that would most likely have been available, or used on these cells?

Thanks,
Dan

[lenser]

You might check with Carol Miller at Flutotscamerarepair.com. She repairs ancient shutters and has quite a few spare parts and assemblies. Maybe she can help.

[Steven Tribe]

If it says just Manhattan Optical - then this set is from before around 1902. They merged with Gundlach on that date. This means it is back in the "not so well designed or reliable" shutter era - with exceptions, of course.

[CCHarrison]

Steven is correct, I find ads for the Emil WA lens as early as 1897 and as late as 1909 in my brief search. I believe these were sold based on formats (4x5, 5x7 etc ) and fit the common rapid rectilinear lens/shutter combos ( double or single piston types ) that were found on the Wizard self-casing folding view cameras ( 4x5 and 5x7 being most common ) and the related Korona cameras.... See the attached ads for more info.

Dan

[DanK]

Thank you all for the information...

The set is identical to the case pictured in the first advertisement...the button on the top of the box says...

Manhattan Optical Co. of NY - Emil Wide Angle Lens - Cresskill, NJ

From what I understand, they were available from 4 to 8 inch, covering 4x5 to 8x10 depending on size....but the cells aren't marked with the size...

Would anyone have thoughts as to where the name 'Emil' comes from in the name, I hadn't found any person named Emil associated with the Manhattan Optical Co...

Thanks again,
Dan

[Louis Pacilla]

Hi Dan

"Would anyone have thoughts as to where the name 'Emil' comes from in the name, I hadn't found any person named Emil associated with the Manhattan Optical Co..."

I would hazard to guess that Emil wide cell set was a collaboration of Ernest Gundlach & Emil Busch. Maybe? Not sure but seems possible & this was done often in those days.

I will add a photo of a lens on a Korona III. made only a few years after Gundlach merged with Manhattan Optical Co. This has Gundlach shutter with Rapid Rectagraphic cells & bears a separate aperture scale for W.A. cells. This could be the shutter your looking for.

Hope this helps

Peace
Louis

[Carsten Wolff]

Reading this, my eyes wandered a few cms to my Betax #2 shutter lying on my desk. I happened to have a ruler handy, too: Threads are about 30.5mm :) ; e.g. an Alphax would be the same size. Come to think of it, I've actually seen these lenses in Betax shuttters before.....

[Steven Tribe]

And these are more available/reliable than the generation before.

[Ole Tjugen]

Emil - I would guess either Busch or Wünsche. since it's called "Aplanat" too, I'm fairly sure the lenses were produced by whichever Emil.

But the Busch Weitwinkel-Aplanat has too small a cell spacing to be mounted in a shutter, which is why they had wheel stops - iris apertures were too thick to fit!

That leaves Wünsche, about which I know next to nothing...

[DanK]

Thanks all again for the information...and the image Louis...

I am curious if the Betax and Alphax shutters that were mentioned have the same diameter threads front and rear...I have one Alphax that has different diameters front and rear (rear is larger)...also are these shutters labeled as #2's or is there a way to identify a #2....thinking my best bet may be ebay, and I don't believe I've seen a seller list a shutter with dimensions in the description....

These Emil cells appear to be identical, front and rear...

I did pick up an older supposedly 1901 box camera with lens, and through the fuzzy seller photos it appears to have a single piston type shutter....I have yet to see the camera....but picked it up for a spare-time restoration project....Hoping I lucked out and the cells will fit it (although my luck usually isn't nearly that good)...

Thanks again for the information....I appreciate it...
Dan

[Steven Tribe]

Not Wünsche. As far as I remember his camera lenses were bought in items.
Wasn't E.Suter an Emil too?

[Dan Fromm]

Not Wünsche. As far as I remember his camera lenses were bought in items.
Wasn't E.Suter an Emil too?Swiss, though.

[Carsten Wolff]

Thanks all again for the information...and the image Louis...

I am curious if the Betax and Alphax shutters that were mentioned have the same diameter threads front and rear...I have one Alphax that has different diameters front and rear (rear is larger)...also are these shutters labeled as #2's or is there a way to identify a #2....thinking my best bet may be ebay, and I don't believe I've seen a seller list a shutter with dimensions in the description....

These Emil cells appear to be identical, front and rear...

I did pick up an older supposedly 1901 box camera with lens, and through the fuzzy seller photos it appears to have a single piston type shutter....I have yet to see the camera....but picked it up for a spare-time restoration project....Hoping I lucked out and the cells will fit it (although my luck usually isn't nearly that good)...

Thanks again for the information....I appreciate it...
Dan

The Betax shutters have their size number written on them, e.g. labelled "Betax No.2"; the Alphax haven't. Yes, all my (about 10 perhaps) Betax and Alphax shutters have matching front and rear threads;but that doesn't necessarily mean there can't be exceptions. The Alphax shutters seem the later design and are perhaps even better than the Betax although external dimensions are basically the same. Alphax also come in a flash-synchro version. No Betax I've ever seen had synchro.

[CCHarrison]

One of the original Directors of Manhattan Optical was Emil Schaefer.

see http://books.google.com/books?id=B3UoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP34&dq=emil+Schaefer+manhattan+optical&hl=en&ei=B8aKTIaAOoOC8gbj0onfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#

Dan

[Steven Tribe]

Well done CC! The contribution of German expatriates was pretty enormouse both in the USA and the UK. Dallmeyer was the equivalent for UK photo optics deveopment as Händel was for UK music/opera.

[DanK]

Thanks again Everyone....Impressive find CC....Great information...

Hopefully I can find a shutter, and get these cells back in action...

Thanks,
Dan

[CCHarrison]

From Manhattan Optical Catalogue 1901