Complicated burning in of skyok

[cyrus]

Ok so we're all familiar with the case of, say, a landscape shot that has things sticking up into the sky in the foreground that have complicated shapes (for example a church spire)
and we're all familiar with the problems thus created if you attempt to burn in the sky in: the foreground thing sticking up in the sky gets overexposed too.

I'm trying to think of the ways to deal with this problem and the plusses and minuses with each:

1-the most basic is to attempt to dodge the spire but this is probably the least effective way since inevitably you'll end up with underexposed and or overexposed halos around the spire.

2/ use an acetate mask but that requires perfect masking and registration

2- you could try flashing the paper area that will show the sky

3- you could try split grade filter printing ?

4- bleaching the spire afterwards?

5- what else?

[Gem Singer]

#5.What else?

Shoot the scene with a dark yellow, orange, or red filter to darken the sky and lighten the spire.

That way, there will be no need to burn in the sky in while printing.

[numnutz]

Put negative in enlarger and adjust to the size of your final print. Place some thick card or an old print in place of your photographic paper. Then draw a pencil outline around the spire, cut out the spire and the rest of the print, then use it as a mask when you expose your final print. You may have to cut slightly inside the outline you have drawn to prevent a halo around the spire.

If the spire is fairly prominent on the final print use your hands and fingers (like making finger shadows on a wall) to mask.

Possibly contact some OHP film with the large format negative then paint photopaque(sp?) on that to produce a mask.

nn :)

[cyrus]

#5.What else?

Shoot the scene with a dark yellow, orange, or red filter to darken the sky and lighten the spire.

That way, there will be no need to burn in the sky in while printing.

But then the entire scenes contrast will change. I suppose using a graduated filter helps that but in any case let's start from the neg we have not the one we wish we had!

[cyrus]

Put negative in enlarger and adjust to the size of your final print. Place some thick card or an old print in place of your photographic paper. Then draw a pencil outline around the spire, cut out the spire and the rest of the print, then use it as a mask when you expose your final print. You may have to cut slightly inside the outline you have drawn to prevent a halo around the spire.

If the spire is fairly prominent on the final print use your hands and fingers (like making finger shadows on a wall) to mask.

Possibly contact some OHP film with the large format negative then paint photopaque(sp?) on that to produce a mask.

nn :)


Yup manual masking is an option but not with very complicated structures. So what
else?

I suppose
5: make a positive then do tonal separation on high contrast film, and use that as a mask.

[Nathan Potter]

The only real alternative after the image is shot and developed is with unsharp masking via a precise register punch system. I use a home made rig with 4X5 film and .0625 diameter punch pins. I use Tmax 100 as the mask and place the sandwich in the enlarger with split exposure as necessary.

Of course lately I've resorted to masking in Photoshop although there are limits with that technology also. Pencil outlining cannot be done precisely enough to meet critical craftsmanship standards.

There is no substitute for getting it right on the original image in the first place.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[cyrus]

Agreed Nathan that the best solution is a proper neg to start with. So I understand from your post that you make a positive using tmax 100 and then use it as a mask. Am I right? So you include a tonal separation?

I'd be interested in seeing pictures of your homemade punch register rig.

Tim Rudman, in his "Photographer's Master Printing Course" uses a combination of 6 techniques but I don't remember them all -- his theory was that by combining all 6 then each one would leave less of a tell-tale sign. I'm trying to remember all 6

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Use a Dodge / Burn mask as taught by Alan Ross. It is not complicated, the equipment needed is cheap and it is reliable and repeatable. And, you don't need a pin register. You can purchase all the needed equipment from Alan or you can purchase the how to information from him and make your own. Just go to his website and check it out. He developed the system to allow him to more easily print the Ansel Adams Special Edition prints that are sold at the AA gallery.

[cyrus]

Use a Dodge / Burn mask as taught by Alan Ross. It is not complicated, the equipment needed is cheap and it is reliable and repeatable. And, you don't need a pin register. You can purchase all the needed equipment from Alan or you can purchase the how to information from him and make your own. Just go to his website and check it out. He developed the system to allow him to more easily print the Ansel Adams Special Edition prints that are sold at the AA gallery.

thanks I checked out the link but it really says nothing about what "selective masking" is (he says it is essentially really really cool, but doesn't actually describe it) and what the kits do. I appreciate that he needs to keep back some info in order to sell his stuff but I'd sure like to know what I'm buying before I shell out $30 for the articles and then buy the kits. Based on the images on his site, he's using frosted mylar, and that usually means he's using pencil shading to make masks. Am I right?

[Eric Biggerstaff]

If you like, you can call Alan any time and ask questions. He is more than happy to fill in details for you. Basically, you can either use pencils (I use regular pencils as well as colored ones) or you can make the masks digitally (which Alan now does). The neg carrier is easy to make. The articles were printed in View Camera several years ago I believe.

[cyrus]

So the solutions are:
1- Dodging/Burning
2- Masking (using variety of methods)
3- Bleaching
4- Split-grade printing
5- Flashing

Anything else?

[Drew Wiley]

Just find a registration punch with matching pin glass and contact frame. Makes life
so much easier. But if you can't do this, at least you can register frosted mylar sheets on a light box, and do micro-dodging using either pencil or creosin red dye, just like they did it for decades before PS. The nice thing about the dye is that it can be layered up very gradually. But don't try acetate sheets except for immediate use, because it's not dimensionally stable.

[Steve Sherman]

Anything else?

I have with some success combined straight Selenium toner with KY Jelly (water soluble) and painted the area you want to effect more contrast and or density.

Whip the selenium and KY Jelly into a consistent gel so that selenium is evenly disbursed. Let sit in contact with emulsion side of film for 5 - 8 minutes. Wash away and then wash and photo flo before drying.

Need to pay careful attention to spill over into the higher density sky, I use a retouching lamp and a # 0 brush on the outer edges.

[cyrus]

I have with some success combined straight Selenium toner with KY Jelly (water soluble) and painted the area you want to effect more contrast and or density.

Whip the selenium and KY Jelly into a consistent gel so that selenium is evenly disbursed. Let sit in contact with emulsion side of film for 5 - 8 minutes. Wash away and then wash and photo flo before drying.

Need to pay careful attention to spill over into the higher density sky, I use a retouching lamp and a # 0 brush on the outer edges.

Wow this alone totally made my weekend!

[Andrew O'Neill]

Make a dodge/burn mask. I use mylar and a soft pencil. I've shot a lot of old churches and this technique has served me well.
Here is an example. A dodge/burn mask was used for the facade and cross and the sky was burned in:

http://web.me.com/andrewoneill/andrewoneill.com/St._Josephs.html

[archer]

When I used to print for a few pro's and had multiple prints of the same problem neg, I used a jiggle frame and a sheet of 11x14 clear glass, mounted on four springs. A piece of tissue was temporarily taped to the bottom of the glass and all the dodging masking was done on the top of the glass with crosine or ink, then the tissue was removed and the frame was started in motion with a flick on the right bottom corner of the frame and the exposure started leaving both hands free for additional wand dodging of larger areas. The finer the detail the closer to the print the jiggle frame was placed. With this method you can print many nearly identical prints where very complex dodging and burning was required. I know I'm not the only one who used a jiggle frame or maybe I am really old.
Denise Libby

[patrickjames]

You haven't posted the image you are trying to print, but you might try a slimt bleach.

[cyrus]

You haven't posted the image you are trying to print, but you might try a slimt bleach.

Thanks Patrick but I'm not really familiar with SLIMT much. I'm not trying to print anything in particular at the moment, but this is a common-enough printing situation that everyone who prints is familiar with it.

I never understood SLIMT bleaching. How it would help this particular case when you're trying to burn in a complicated sky/background? Could you expand on that?

[cyrus]

When I used to print for a few pro's and had multiple prints of the same problem neg, I used a jiggle frame and a sheet of 11x14 clear glass, mounted on four springs. A piece of tissue was temporarily taped to the bottom of the glass and all the dodging masking was done on the top of the glass with crosine or ink, then the tissue was removed and the frame was started in motion with a flick on the right bottom corner of the frame and the exposure started leaving both hands free for additional wand dodging of larger areas. The finer the detail the closer to the print the jiggle frame was placed. With this method you can print many nearly identical prints where very complex dodging and burning was required. I know I'm not the only one who used a jiggle frame or maybe I am really old.
Denise Libby


LOL! A jiggle frame. Must build one.