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El Topo
5-Sep-2010, 12:31
Hi all,

Here's a question for you savvy users from a LF beginner. I'm about to purchase my first LF camera, which I want to last for maaaaaany years. The options come down to a brand new Horseman 45FA or a Linhof Master Technika from 1980 (seller assures it's pristine and recently checked). 30 Years old seems a lot to someone without experience with this cameras......but maybe it's not.

Budget aside, which one would you go for??. I'll be shooting portraits, urban landscapes and some natural landscapes too.

Help much appreciated.... :)

Mark Woods
5-Sep-2010, 12:41
I bought my 1960's V8 Deardorff used 2 years ago and it was a studio camera that had been well used (scratches, etc.) but well maintained. Not a beauty, but works great. Old is often a state of mind. ;-)

Oren Grad
5-Sep-2010, 12:52
The standard advice here is that for most users, the first LF camera they buy is not the one they settle on for the long run. Every camera involves lots of compromises, and without some experience it's hard to know for sure which will suit you best.

That said, in a nutshell, compared to the Technika, the Horseman is substantially smaller and lighter but has restricted movements and bellows draw, a more restricted range of lenses that can be mounted, and more cramped controls.

The Master Technika also has a rangefinder. With an accessory viewfinder and grip, appropriate cams for the lenses, and lots of arm and shoulder strength, it can be used for hand-held work.

As for which I'd recommend as a first LF camera for a beginner, the answer is neither. :) I'd spend much less money, buy a basic wood-field camera, and use it for a while. That may be fine; and if not, you'll know in what specific ways it falls short and can better understand which alternatives might make the most sense for you.

El Topo
5-Sep-2010, 14:40
You are very right Mark. Like with people, old is indeed often a state of mind...;)


The standard advice here is that for most users, the first LF camera they buy is not the one they settle on for the long run. Every camera involves lots of compromises, and without some experience it's hard to know for sure which will suit you best.

.......

As for which I'd recommend as a first LF camera for a beginner, the answer is neither. :) I'd spend much less money, buy a basic wood-field camera, and use it for a while. That may be fine; and if not, you'll know in what specific ways it falls short and can better understand which alternatives might make the most sense for you.


That sounds like a very wise piece of advice Oren Grad. I'll surely keep it in mind. :)

Should I decide to go for the Horseman though.....does it have a rotating back (or a similar mechanism) to switch from horizontal to portraits?. That's something I'd really like from my first camera!!

Thanks again

Jim Rhoades
5-Sep-2010, 15:21
The Horseman back unclips and you switch it to whatever position you want. It does not rotate like a Linhof. And that is just one of many reasons why it weights half of a Linhof.

I had a HD model, no back movements and rubber coated aluminum. A bit lighter than the FA. It was a very light and much tougher camera than the Linhof V I replaced it with. I think that the Horseman is a better camera for back packing and any high intensity travel. I tour with a motorcycle a lot and found the HD perfect for this type of work.

That said I did buy a Linhof V when I could afford it. It can handle more lenses and other options than a Horseman. Better for me in the long run as I'm getting to old for back packing. But it only travels in my car. I use a Crown Graphic on the bike now.

If your young and going to beat the snot out of your camera buy the Horseman.

Oren Grad
5-Sep-2010, 17:08
Jim has already explained the back.

If you don't mind fiddly little controls and limited movements, and use only lenses in the wide-to-normal range - say, 75mm to 210mm - the 45FA is a perfectly reasonable camera. The combination of small size, relatively light weight and ruggedness is a big plus.

I have a Horseman VH, which is more or less the same camera except with a 6x9cm revolving back and a handful of other minor functional differences. It's very sturdy and has served me well overall. But IMO the basic design, which goes back many generations to the original Horseman 6x9cm press cameras, is pushing its limits with 4x5. I prefer something with a little more breathing room for the bigger format.

But as the saying goes, YMMV. Don't sweat it too much - pick something that appeals to you, and go have fun! :)

Richard Wasserman
5-Sep-2010, 21:07
I have no experience with the Linhof, but I use and very much like a Horseman 45FA. It is compact, lightweight and for most of what I do has plenty of movements. I am mainly using it in urban settings and use a binocular viewer so I don't need to have my head under a darkcloth which allows me to not be isolated from, and to keep an eye on the environment I'm in. I use lenses from 90-240mm. One of my favorite photographers, Mark Power, also uses an FA. http://www.markpower.co.uk/.

Frank Petronio
5-Sep-2010, 23:54
If you indeed want a camera for "many years" then approach it like finding a wife. Date a bunch, have fun, try big and little ones, be a bit promiscuous. It's fun. And if one really clicks, keep it.

El Topo
6-Sep-2010, 06:10
Thanks Jim and Oren, for the useful advice :)

Richard, the reason why I'm precisely looking at a Horseman 45FA is Mark Powers ;). I met him at a Magnum workshop in Barcelona a year ago and he told me that's he's favorite choice. No that my pictures are going to get any closer to what he does....but I'm pretty much in the same photographic style.

Frank, I'm going to write down that piece of advice an stick it in my refrigerator, hahaha.

One last question (again, remember I'm starting in this world and am a complete neophite). The Linhof comes calibrated with "cams" (not a clue what that is or what the are used for), while the Horseman comes "out of the box". Do I need those cams for the Horseman too?. What else would I need to purchase for the Horseman (which is going up in the list) apart from a lense and lenseboard??

Thanks for your patience guys.....

Brian Ellis
6-Sep-2010, 06:41
Cams are used when you're using the Linhof as a rangefinder camera rather than composing with the ground glass, which pretty much means when you're hand-holding rather than putting the camera on a tripod. Goes back to the days when press photographers and some other types used the rangefinder a lot. Today most people use Linhof Technikas as view cameras and compose on the ground glass. Cams are unnecessary when the camera is used that way. The Horseman doesn't have rangefinder capability so it doesn't take cams.

As for things that actually fit on or in the Horseman and needed to use it, as opposed to non-camera accessories like a light meter, all you'd need to use the camera is a lens board and a film holder with film in it.

The Horseman is a somewhat limiting camera because of the short bellows. It is IMHO a poor choice as your first camera. The equipment we use has a major effect on how and what we photograph. You're almost certainly going to find that you photograph somewhat different subjects in different ways with 4x5 than you have with smaller formats. By purchasing the Horseman you'll be limiting yourself to using a normal lens no longer than about 210mm, which is about the equivalent of 70-80mm with a 35mm camera. I'd find that very limiting in 35mm and I'd find it limiting in 4x5. Maybe you wouldn't but you won't know until you have some experience.

If you were an experienced LF photographer, knew that weight was extremely important to you because you took the camera on long hikes, and knew through your experience that you never found the need for a longer lens than can be used on the Horseman, I'd say go for it. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Henry Carter
6-Sep-2010, 07:05
After extensive experience with small and medium format photography, I bought my first LF camera in 2000. I wanted the best camera for my needs, and after looking at many LF cameras, I settled for a Linhof Master Technika Classic.

After using a Technika, I was never in the least bit tempted to buy another brand of LF camera. I have not however remained monogamous, and I now have several Linhof cameras - some more specialized than the MT Classic (MT 3000, Technar). I use lenses from 58mm to 300mm.

If I had to do it all over again, I would start with the excatly the same LF camera - the Linhof Master Technika.

Good luck with your quest!

Oren Grad
6-Sep-2010, 08:12
One last question (again, remember I'm starting in this world and am a complete neophite). The Linhof comes calibrated with "cams" (not a clue what that is or what the are used for), while the Horseman comes "out of the box". Do I need those cams for the Horseman too?

To expand on what Brian said, the cam is a user-interchangeable component that governs the way the movement of the focusing bed is coupled to the movement of the rangefinder mechanism. For the rangefinder to work properly with different lenses, each lens needs a cam carved with a distinct shape that corresponds to its focal length.

Cams are specific to a particular model/type of camera - Linhof uses one type for its late-model 4x5 Techinka cameras, Horseman a different one for its 6x9cm VH-R camera.

If you're not going to use the rangefinder on a Technika, you don't need to worry about cams. And the Horseman 45FA doesn't have a rangefinder at all, so no cams.

Greg Miller
6-Sep-2010, 08:52
My first LF camera was a 45FA (purchased "used"). It was a nice camera, but I found it limiting in its bellows range, and I found the movements a bit too convoluted for my taste. The back movements are there but difficult to use. If you want to use a little front fall, you need to drop the bed, and then apply a lot of front rise. Also be aware that lenses that have a rear cell larger than 2.5" will not be able to be used. I have not used a Master Technika so I don't know if you would encounter the same issues or not.

I eventually sold the 45FA and purchased a camera with more intuitive/logical movements and with more bellows range.

Frank Petronio
6-Sep-2010, 10:00
You might also consider getting a "trainer". Some will laugh but a simple studio monorail like a Cambo, Sinar, Toyo for under $500 would work well.

The advantage is that they all have a full range of generous, easy to access and use movements in all directions. With these I think you are more apt to experiment and learn how the movements work -- one glance and you can see where things are at and how far they've been moved, etc. You're not all cramped up and compromising over weight/bulk trade-offs.

And after you "get your legs" you'll have an inexpensive back-up/alternative good for close work, or you can sell it and recoup your money. In the end you'll probably end up with a high-quality field camera that will be easier to carry, but this way you'll understand the trade-offs and compromises between the various designs.

Think of it as being a 16-year old learning to drive. You'd want to be a big old Buick, not a Turbo Mini-Cooper, right?

And from a practical, frugal point of view, for less than the cost of the Horseman, you could set yourself up with a very nice Sinar F2 or P studio camera and also have a Crown Graphic or Wista or Tachihara lightweight field camera for travel and packing.

Armin Seeholzer
6-Sep-2010, 13:50
Horseman you'll be limiting yourself to using a normal lens no longer than about 210mm, which is about the equivalent of 70-80mm with a 35mm camera.

Hi I use a 300 mm APO Ronar on my Horseman with a extention board, I have not even to expand the back for up to 10 m!

Cheers Armin

Brian Ellis
6-Sep-2010, 16:17
Hi I use a 300 mm APO Ronar on my Horseman with a extention board, I have not even to expand the back for up to 10 m!

Cheers Armin

Yeah, I started to mention other ways of gaining extension such as a top-hat lens board, a telephoto lens, etc. But then I though "why should he bother?" There are plenty of other cameras out there that take a 300mm and longer lens without the need to mess around with accessories. I'm not knocking the Horseman FA, it's a fine camera. I just think it's a little limiting for a first-time LF photographer. An experienced LF photographer is a different matter. But the OP has certainly heard all the pros and cons by now and can make up his own mind.

El Topo
10-Sep-2010, 09:09
Hi guys,

Thanks everybody for the advice. After doing some numbers about other things I want/need to buy, I've come to the realization that the Linhof Master Technika is ut of my budget.

The new dilemma then is: Horseman 45 FA or Toyo Field 45a II ?

I would veeeery much appreciate your help here, as I really want to buy it asap and start shooting!!

Thanks!! :)

Ps: Please, it's already hard enough to decide between these two, so please do not introduce "new variables" in the equation...... ;)

Oren Grad
10-Sep-2010, 09:16
The new dilemma then is: Horseman 45 FA or Toyo Field 45a II ?

There are no cams to confuse things in this comparison. But the Toyo is comparable in size/weight to a Technika, so the main issue remains the same - compactness and light weight (45FA) vs more flexibility and a wider scope of usability (45AII).

Former Member 8144
10-Sep-2010, 10:42
in recent use I found the toyo FA heavier / bulkier than my current horseman 45HF (like Fa but with a fixed back)...lovely geared front rise though. Assuming the FA can take a small lens and be closed up like the HF it's a great set up.

Richard Wasserman
10-Sep-2010, 11:39
in recent use I found the toyo FA heavier / bulkier than my current horseman 45HF (like Fa but with a fixed back)...lovely geared front rise though. Assuming the FA can take a small lens and be closed up like the HF it's a great set up.


The Horseman 45FA can be folded with a 135mm Sironar N mounted.

cmmatthews
10-Sep-2010, 12:57
If you still want a Linhof I can sell you a Tech V which is 95% of a master technika. PM me if you are interested.

the toyo is a fine camera though and I almost bought one.

Ivan J. Eberle
10-Sep-2010, 14:59
For 1/20th the price of a Linhof, you can have a perfectly fine Graflex Super Graphic (cammed RF) or Meridian 45B. They'll necessarily be used, as they're ~40-60 years out of production.

But these are tough, tough cameras and it's likely the original bellows will still be light-tight (unlikely to occur with any vintage Linhof leather bellows, as I understand it, unless the bellows have been changed out in the past decade, at about the cost of a complete SG or Meridian).

Both the Meridian and SG have revolving backs. The Meridian has back posts and the same moves as a Linhof Master Tech, and the inner focusing rail too. Mine also folds up with a 210 f/5.6 Sironar N on custom board (3/16" recess), or with a Nikon SW 90 f/8 on a flat board.

El Topo
10-Sep-2010, 15:54
good info guys, thanks! Clearing up my mind little by little.

cmmatthews, I just was your PM, sorry I didn't answer before. I think I'm going to go for one of these two, but really appreciate the offer. Thanks ;)

A couple of questions more: does the Toyo 45a II have a geared front rise? can the Horseman back be rotated easily?

Sirius Glass
10-Sep-2010, 18:52
How do you think that you will use the camera now?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 5 years?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 10 years?

Do you want ability to handhold or only on a tripod?
Will you back pack with it?
Those right there may determine which you get?

Steve

El Topo
10-Sep-2010, 20:37
How do you think that you will use the camera now?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 5 years?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 10 years?

Do you want ability to handhold or only on a tripod?
Will you back pack with it?
Those right there may determine which you get?

Steve

Hi Steve,

- Urban and natural landscapes and usually full body portraits.
- Nowadays next week is long term, let alone 5 or 10 years.......not a clue then ;)
- I also shoot 35 and 6x6, so no need to handhold. This will be for paused and "tripoded" work.
- Yes, although I'm 36, 6'2'', 210 pounds and in pretty good shape (and also used to heavy backpacking)

So your suggestion is.....

gari beet
10-Sep-2010, 20:51
Looking at the specs I would say they are much the same camera, a few differences in "how" but mainly they do the same things.
The Horseman goes to about 210, the Toyo is good to 360. What's the longest lens you may use? If you don't know as yet I would go for the Toyo, as I would rather have bellows draw I don't use than less than I want/need.

Gari

Armin Seeholzer
11-Sep-2010, 10:57
The Horseman goes to about 210

The Horseman goes up to 240mm without extention!

Cheers Armin

Sirius Glass
11-Sep-2010, 16:29
How do you think that you will use the camera now?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 5 years?
How do you think that you will use the camera in 10 years?

Do you want ability to handhold or only on a tripod?
Will you back pack with it?
Those right there may determine which you get?

Steve


Hi Steve,

- Urban and natural landscapes and usually full body portraits.
- Nowadays next week is long term, let alone 5 or 10 years.......not a clue then ;)
- I also shoot 35 and 6x6, so no need to handhold. This will be for paused and "tripoded" work.
- Yes, although I'm 36, 6'2'', 210 pounds and in pretty good shape (and also used to heavy backpacking)

So your suggestion is.....

Then with
- I also shoot 35 and 6x6, so no need to handhold. This will be for paused and "tripoded" work.

You answered all your questions in one shot. Why accept the limits of a press camera if you will never use it as a press camera?

Steve

Frank Petronio
11-Sep-2010, 18:46
Haha buying that $150 Cambo Legend in the classifieds is probably a better camera for him.

El Topo
12-Sep-2010, 19:23
Haha buying that $150 Cambo Legend in the classifieds is probably a better camera for him.

Maybe it is, but I ended up purchasing the Horseman 45FA!!! :D

From all the advice I've been getting both cameras seem pretty good, but I had a crush on the Horseman and decided to follow my heart (my longest DSLR lense is a 85mm and the longest MF is 150mm....so I think a 210 for my new LF should be enough!)

Now the next question: Can someone recomend a good 150mm lense that (preferrably) fits inside when the camera is folded and does not cost a zillion bucks??

Thanks for the umptenth time.

Armin Seeholzer
13-Sep-2010, 02:47
The only 150mm which will fit is the G.Glaron 150mm and I have one from the last run from Scheider I buyed it as a macro lens and used it 3-4 times in the studio.
Short later I buyed a Macro 120 and the G-Glaron is just sitting around since then!
But its only f9 PM me if you are interessed in buying it!
The other one is the Rodenstock 135mm APO Sironar N with 40,5mm Filter tread!

Cheers Armin

P.S. Congrats on the Horseman FA its a very fine camera I still have my HF the former one from Horseman!

Armin Seeholzer
13-Sep-2010, 02:56
Ramon if you ever buy a 210mm remember the Apo Symmar and Symmar S will not fit on the Horseman the back is to large.
Lenses which I know will fit are the APO and non APO Sironar N and the Nikkor W 210mm they booth have only 60mm back diameter!
This is the largest back diameter which fits your Horseman!

Cheers Armin

Former Member 8144
13-Sep-2010, 03:21
I've recently been using a sironar n mc 135/5.6 in my horseman 45hf. A brilliant combo.
I'm actually selling the set up as moving to 10x8 and just sold the lens here.
It's worth looking out for one though as being able to keep your standard lens in the horsemans is such a pleasure. If I ever need a 54 set up in the future, which I know I will, it's the first set up I will look to get.
Marc

Sal Santamaura
13-Sep-2010, 07:31
...Can someone recomend a good 150mm lense that (preferrably) fits inside when the camera is folded and does not cost a zillion bucks??...


...There is none in 150 that will fit, only a 135mm fits with it closed...


The only 150mm which will fit is the G.Glaron 150mm ...The other one is the Rodenstock 135mm APO Sironar N with 40,5mm Filter tread...Another lens that closes inside the FA is a 150mm f/9 Germinar W when placed in a #0 shutter. In this post

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=108895&postcount=7

Arne Croell reports on its performance. I have one for my FA and cannot praise it highly enough. I purchased a second sample from Kerry Thalmann, intending to use it for small-magnification enlargements from 4x5 negatives. However, since that time, I've adapted a 120mm Nikkor AM for this purpose, so no longer need the second Geminar W. PM me if you're interested in it.

El Topo
14-Sep-2010, 00:19
Thanks guys.

Given that there are not too many options of lenses that close inside, and also the fact that I'd really like to start with a 150mm as an all work around lense, let's focus on good quality lenses. A friend of mine is selling at a fairly good price (from what I've seen around) a Rodenstock Apo Sinar S 150mm f/5 purchased by him a couple of years ago brand new. Thoughts on that lense? Any other recommendation (in 150mm) that fits the Horseman and renders good quality?

An I thought I was going to spend years trying to find information on LF photography......good bless this forum!! :) :) :)

RM

Armin Seeholzer
14-Sep-2010, 02:02
Hi Ramon the Apo Sinar S 150 will not fit if you whant close the camera with the lens on it! It has a 49mm filter tread and the 40,5 mm filter tread of the 135mm is the bigest which fits for closing!

Cheers Armin

Former Member 8144
14-Sep-2010, 02:05
I have to agree that having your standard lens closing in this camera really is one of its bonuses.
Of course if the 135mm focal length doesn't suit then it's a moot point but all in all it's one of things that adds so much to the attraction of the camera, just as it is on say the non folding ebonies, etc...simple and speed of set up and one less lens to squeeze into your bag...just something to think about.
Marc

john biskupski
14-Sep-2010, 02:24
The Apo-Sironar S 150/5.6 would be considered by many as a benchmark modern lens for image quality for B&W and colour. The N is also pretty good, cheaper, but with a slightly smaller IC. Other 150's mentioned previously in the thread are also perfectly good, particularly for B&W. Keep that Horseman lens compatibility chart close, and you have a fine selection of lens to pick from.

A little longer, and the small Nikkor-M 200/8 fits the 45FA really well, a nice partnership.

My only gripes with the 45FA are the clunky nature of the expanding back movements, and the difficulty, not to say impossibility, of using the Polaroid/Fuji instant backs, being too tight a fit with the 45FA spring back. I tried to use this camera as my learning tool, using the reduced size FP100B instant packs, but ended up snapping the bail arms.

Which brings me to a distinct advantage of the little 45FA, which is that Komamura graciously sent me replacement bail arms for free by return.

El Topo
14-Sep-2010, 15:03
.....My only gripes with the 45FA are the clunky nature of the expanding back movements, and the difficulty, not to say impossibility, of using the Polaroid/Fuji instant backs, being too tight a fit with the 45FA spring back. I tried to use this camera as my learning tool, using the reduced size FP100B instant packs, but ended up snapping the bail arms......

Ok....this is a prolem here that I probably should've thought of before :confused: :confused: ....As this is my LF camera and I use a reflex-lightmeter with my Hasselblad, I was really counting on using a Polaroid back.......s#%it.

Is there any way to solve that (any other instant back that's compatible)?


I have to agree that having your standard lens closing in this camera really is one of its bonuses.......
Of course if the 135mm focal length doesn't suit then it's a moot point but all in all it's one of things that adds so much to the attraction of the camera, just as it is on say the non folding ebonies, etc...simple and speed of set up and one less lens to squeeze into your bag...just something to think about.
Marc


Yep, fully agree that having a standard lense closing inside the camera is a real bonus, and I'm willing to give up those 15mm extra...... The thing is that the only particular model suggested in this thread (thanks Armin Seeholzer) is a Rodenstock 135mm APO Sironar N, which as far as I see in B&H, costs approx US1100. Do you guys know any other good one that is a bit less pricey?

Round of beers for y'all from Madrid :D

Oren Grad
14-Sep-2010, 16:14
The thing is that the only particular model suggested in this thread (thanks Armin Seeholzer) is a Rodenstock 135mm APO Sironar N, which as far as I see in B&H, costs approx US1100. Do you guys know any other good one that is a bit less pricey?

It's the Apo-Sironar-S that costs ~$1100 new. The 135 Apo-Sironar-N / Sironar-N / Caltar II-N is readily available in good condition used for < $400.

Frank Petronio
14-Sep-2010, 16:33
The little Horseman would have a hard time taking advantage of the 150 Sironar-S's larger image circle so why waste the money? Likewise a 135 is very close to a 150 in practice. So even if you settled for a lowly 135/5.6 Sironar-N, it would most likely be the lens you keep forever.

And they sell in mint condition for about $300 and change on eBay.

john biskupski
14-Sep-2010, 16:46
The 150/9 g-claron will fit inside the closed 45FA. Also, while I haven't tried it, judging by its shallow projection in front of the lensboard, which seems the same as the 135 A-S-N, the Nikkor-M 200/8 may also just fit too.

Oren is right about the quite reasonable pricing of a used 135 (or 150) A-S-N, I got mine (mint) for €350 last year.

I haven't found a solution for using instant film with the 45FA, as the Fuji 4x5 and 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 instant films sizes are all 10-pack films which use the thicker PA-45 (or Polaroid 550) and PA-145 (or Polaroid 405) holders respectively. As the above poster says, time to use real film/quickloads with this camera. So I'm using up my stock of FP100B on my Razzle.

El Topo
14-Sep-2010, 17:29
@Van Camper & John Biskupski.

While it's true that a small point&shoot does the job, I sometimes use a 3 and 4 studio strobes for indoor and outdoor portraiting. In those cases, regardless of what my Sekonic or DSLR tell me, I always shoot a FP100 with my Hassy to check the final look and texture....

John, when you say that "Fuji 4x5 and 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 instant films sizes are all 10-pack films which use the thicker PA-45 (or Polaroid 550) and PA-145 (or Polaroid 405) holders respectively" I assume that those holders do not fit the Horseman, right?

And since we are talking about holders, does the 545i work for both Readyload and Quickload? I'll be mainly using Portra 160 NC (which I don't think is Readyload available), Portra 160 VC (which I think it is) and some Fuji every now and then. What ready/quick holder would you recommend? I just don't know if each brand sells it's own or if there is a "universal" one.

Thanks for the links Van (although I don't understand a single word of the last one... ;) )

@ Oren

You're right, that's the price of the "S" model.....

@ Frank

It makes all the sense in the world, I'm definitely going to check that 135/5.6 Sironar-N on Ebay. However, your comments leads to my zillionth question: You say that the Sironar's IC is too much, but what should be a good IC for a 135/150mm (given the movements of the Horseman(

Ps: Not that I will be shooting architecture, but I'd like to take good advantage of the movements to its limits sometimes.


To all; sorry if I ask the same question a couple of times, I'm not an English native speaker and I hadn't practiced in a while... :)

Frank Petronio
14-Sep-2010, 19:34
The Polaroid 545 series holders, as well as the Kodak Readyload and Fuji Quickload holders, are now obsolete since all the film that was made for them is now discontinued.

The other Instant Film options for large format are the Fuji FP-145 or old Polaroid 405 holder for the smaller Fuji 10-pack films or the Fuji FP-45 or older Polaroid 550 holders for the full-size Fuji Instant films.

The holders are too thick to fit between the ground glass and back of some cameras. I have not tried a Horseman so I am not an absolute authority on whether or not they will work, but it is something to check out.

If the camera has a Graflock style back then the holders can be mounted with sliding tabs once the ground glass is removed.

As for the coverage of a 135 Sironar-N, it should be sufficient for most large format work. The more image coverage the better, so it's a trade-off between cost and size versus compactness and value.

El Topo
15-Sep-2010, 02:59
Any recomendation for film holders? Should I go for the originals, buy them on Ebay (not sure if they are all compatible)? What about lensboards? Are ebay ones ok, or should I get an original one?.

Man, so many things to buy and decisions to take. I better put all that to work soon....

Thanks!!

john biskupski
15-Sep-2010, 03:02
Ramon

The Polaroid 405 and the Fuji PA-145 instant 3.25x4.25 film pack holders are 27mm deep, versus just 15mm for a Fuji Quickload holder or a Polaroid 545 series holder. Too tight for my 45FA spring back. I haven't explored whether a bar mounting system (after removing gg) could be adapted to this camera. But they fit fine into a Canham and a Wista spring back.

For Fuji Quickloads, I suggest you use the Fuji Quickload holder (mark II is the latest). The Polaroid 545 series holder apparently takes Kodak readyloads without problem. I have read in some threads, but have no personal experience of this, that quickloads work well in both the Fuji and Polaroid holders, but not the converse, ie sometimes Kodak readyloads don't quite work so well in the Fuji holder.

Just to correct an impression from previous posts, both Fuji 4x5 Quickload individual sheet film and Kodak 4x5 Readyload are both still available, just a very limited choice of emulsions.

Your other question on lens choice, I don't think you need to worry about coverage for 4x5 with the A-S-S 150, whose IC is 231mm with 75 degree angle of view, unless you are planning extreme architectural work. The N with IC of 214mm and 72 degree aov is not far behind, very adequate for the great majority of purposes.

Don't forget you can add the Horseman 2x 150-300mm lens converter to these lenses to get usable 300mm on the 45FA. Mpex sometimes have them in stock used.

Armin Seeholzer
15-Sep-2010, 07:05
Don't forget you can add the Horseman 2x 150-300mm lens converter to these lenses to get usable 300mm on the 45FA. Mpex sometimes have them in stock used.

Its just to unsharp in my opinion, it kills all the best things of a sharp lens!

Cheers Armin

P.S. And yes you can take every standard 4x5 inch filmholder!

El Topo
17-Sep-2010, 14:35
Thank you guys.

As just received my Horseman 45fa, and although I have it's my first LF camera and have nothing to compare, I'm veeeery pleased. The camera is much smaller and portable than I thought, and it looks very solid and well built indeed! :) :)

Now I just have to find a nice Sironar N 135mm that fits inside the camera close.

I assume it's going to be a gradual, challenging and sometimes frustrating transition from MF to LF, but I can't wait to see my first 4x5 negative!!!

Jim Rhoades
21-Sep-2010, 16:31
Before you buy that 135, think, if you really do want a 150. The Schneider 150mm Xenar f5.6 fits inside the FA. It does not have much coverage but is VERY small, VERY sharp. It forms the basic outfit for an outstanding back pack camera. Couple it with a Nikon 200M and/or a Germinar or Fuji 240 f/9 with a C-board.

BTW the Germinar 240 on a C-board will focus down to 15 feet. I found the Germinar so sharp I sold my 300 Fuji Tele. Enlarging gave better results than the tele.

Also there are some off-brand lens boards out there. I found that the few bucks you save are not worth it. They all have a slightly loose fit. Buy the Horseman.

El Topo
22-Sep-2010, 08:00
....

Also there are some off-brand lens boards out there. I found that the few bucks you save are not worth it. They all have a slightly loose fit. Buy the Horseman.

Thanks Jim, any idea where I can get them?? I've been looking on ebay but Im not able to find Horseman ones......

Sal Santamaura
22-Sep-2010, 08:36
...any idea where I can get them?? I've been looking on ebay but Im not able to find Horseman ones......Here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23099-REG/Horseman_25656_8x8cm_Lensboard_Flat_for.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23117-REG/Horseman_25655_8_x_8cm_Lensboard.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23121-REG/Horseman_25657_8x8cm_Extended_Lensboard_for.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23130-REG/Horseman_25652_8_x_8cm_Lensboard.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23131-REG/Horseman_25658_8_x_8cm_Lensboard.html

Ivan J. Eberle
22-Sep-2010, 13:33
Nothing with the Rodenstock Sironar-N 135mm f/5.6; mine is tack sharp and the slightly wide view has more appeal to me than a 150mm. Note that even the 150 S versions don't have tremendously image circles, incidentally-- not in comparison to a 210mm Sironar N lens, for instance.
The Sironar N series was made with Apochromatic glass though it is not acknowledged in the earlier versions that are identical optically to later versions. (I happen to have the Caltar II-N versions in 135mm and 210mm version, and both are superb).

Brian Ellis
24-Sep-2010, 09:46
If you plan to never have more than one lens then finding one that will allow the camera to close with it on the camera maybe makes some sense I guess. But If you have two or more, and use at least two of them with some regularity, there's isn't much point in worrying about whether the lens can be left on the camera IMHO since the odds are roughly 50-50 (or worse, depending on how many lenses you own and how often you use each one) that you'll have the wrong lens on the camera and so will end up spending twice as much time getting the right lens on the camera as you would have if you had no lens on the camera to start with.

Maybe you'll save a small amount of space in your backpack by leaving the lens on the camera but at the price of having the wrong lens on the camera some of the time. Just doesn't make any sense to me to buy a lens on the basis of whether it can be left on the camera when the camera is folded but I know some people think it's a big deal.

Ramiro Elena
24-Sep-2010, 09:55
I had two lenses up until I registered in this forum. Now I have... more than ten? These guys are pro pushers, be warned ;-)

El Topo
25-Sep-2010, 02:15
@ Sal Santamaura

Thanks for those links, I already ordered what I needed!

@Van Camper & Brian Ellis

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely end up buying the lenses I really want and am going to really use. However, I'm just starting with LF and what I want to do for the next year or so, is just go out there and shoot all kinds of imagery till I "master" (if that's ever possible) the technique. For that, a tiny lense that can be easily folded inside the camera sounds just perfect. Once I have a better idea of what my needs and tastes are, then I'll go for some specific lenses (although I have the impression I'll want to move to 8x10 then!! hahaha).

@Ramiroelena

Ya me daba a mi esa impresión, si...... ;)

Brian Ellis
25-Sep-2010, 08:22
@ Sal Santamaura

Thanks for those links, I already ordered what I needed!

@Van Camper & Brian Ellis

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely end up buying the lenses I really want and am going to really use. However, I'm just starting with LF and what I want to do for the next year or so, is just go out there and shoot all kinds of imagery till I "master" (if that's ever possible) the technique. For that, a tiny lense that can be easily folded inside the camera sounds just perfect. Once I have a better idea of what my needs and tastes are, then I'll go for some specific lenses (although I have the impression I'll want to move to 8x10 then!! hahaha).

@Ramiroelena

Ya me daba a mi esa impresión, si...... ;)

That sounds like a good plan, have fun. As an aside, it isn't going to take you a year to "master" LF technique. Everything you can learn in a year can be learned in a month or less of fairly frequent photography and what you can't learn in a year will take a lifetime.

ic-racer
25-Sep-2010, 09:39
I'm a little late to the discussion here, by here are my 2 cents.

I have been using the FA for about 5 years now and I love it. However, it is specialized to be small. Recently I helped 2 people get started in 4x5 and I suggested they both get a Chamonix or Shen-Hao Phillips-style camera. For me I like the FA because I consider it the only medium format camera that takes 4x5 film.

When put next to the Medium Format VHR with electric grip and 6x9 back, the FA is pretty much the same weight and size.

El Topo
28-Sep-2010, 17:29
@Brian

I can't agree more with your "aside"! ;)

@ic-racer

....and it's even lighter than my Hasselblad set (503+Pme45+winder)!!


Now..... I need a bit more help here from those of you who know where to get things. I'm trying to find one of those "reflex viewers" (not sure that's the correct term in English) that correct the upside-down image, but I have no clue where to look. A few days ago I talked to a "big" photographer (member of Magnum) who also uses a H45FA and told me he's been looking for one too but can't find it. Any hint guys??

Ps: Willing to buy whatever works, but would prefer the original or a good quality one.

Thaaaaanks

ic-racer
29-Sep-2010, 18:13
Here is a nice collection of reflex finder info:
http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/ReflexFinders1.html

Ray Fenio
13-Oct-2010, 20:38
I purchased a bino viewer and the foldable reflex viewer for my Horseman FA from KEH. They are scarce.

zx42b8
14-Oct-2010, 03:06
So what do you think of the bino viewer and the foldable reflex viewer for the Horseman 45 FA ? Which is best ? Are they easy to use & transport ?
I own a 45FA and I'm very interested by these viewers.
Thanks,
Alain

Ray Fenio
14-Oct-2010, 16:49
I like and use both viewers. The binocular viewer allows you to set the camera higher as you look straight thru the camera and it folds smaller and is easier to carry when hiking. For most shooting I prefer the reflex viewer which shows the image right-side-up.

If you purchase a viewer make sure it has the hinge frame which attaches to the camera. So the viewer (both bino and reflex) will have 3 parts-- the eye piece, the body and the hinge frame attachment. I purchased a foldable reflex viewer that did not have the hinge frame and had to search for a frame. After several months of looking for a frame I decided to purchase a bino viewer because it had the hinge frame which is identical for both viewers. My first viewfinder for the FA was a non-foldable aftermarket reflex viewer that I found on E-bay. It worked fine but I wanted the more compact foldable horseman model.

mandonbossi
18-Sep-2015, 23:07
So I am really hoping someone here can help me with an issue I am having with the Horseman FA and the folding reflex finder I have just purchased separately..

I have just returned to the world of large format after previously having a Chamonix 45-1.. I thought I would try the right side up reflex viewfinder with the Horseman and so far I am a bit confused :(

So I have a few questions that I am really hoping someone here can answer..

* To use, I need to take the original whole Ground Glass assembly/back off the camera? If that is the case, there are two tiny "half circle" silver tabs on the main body of the camera (rear) that seem to prevent me from attaching the reflex finder.. There are indents for where these "half circle silver tabs" would fit into on the original GG and back section but I do not see any indents on the Reflex Viewer..

* There are two tiny screws under these "half circle silver tabs", do I need to remove these to attach the reflex finder? If that is the case, will that be an issue for having the original GG/back fit securely back onto the camera?

* All other things being as they should, is the procedure for operating with the Reflex finder as follows...

1. Focus and compose with the Reflex Finder.

2. Remove Reflex Finder and attach original back/Ground Glass

3. Insert film holder and take shot.

O.K, thanks so much in advance and apologies if I have missed something really obvious.

Any help or suggestions would really help me out...

ic-racer
19-Sep-2015, 05:48
Need pictures.

Also, are you sure the reflex finder is for the FA and not the Monorail system or 6x9 cameras.

If you have the "Binocular Reflex Viewer 27543" I believe it attaches with a spring loaded hinge pin like the focusing hood; the ground glass back stays in place.

Richard Wasserman
19-Sep-2015, 06:39
+! what ic-racer said

mandonbossi
21-Sep-2015, 04:56
Thanks so much for the reply back, is greatly appreciated!

I have some taken some extremely bad photos but hopefully you will get the idea..

139898

139899

139900

mandonbossi
21-Sep-2015, 05:00
The two "silver half circular tabs" I refer to are in the bottom part of the first photo.. This is what I see is preventing the reflex finder from attaching properly..

Thanks so much, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

ic-racer
21-Sep-2015, 05:05
Don't force anything. That looks like a part from a different camera than the Horseman FA. Even if you were to force that in place, where is the ground glass?

djdister
21-Sep-2015, 07:29
The two "silver half circular tabs" I refer to are in the bottom part of the first photo.. This is what I see is preventing the reflex finder from attaching properly..

Thanks so much, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Those two silver half circular tabs are standard on the Horseman and are used to lock in any accessory back items. They are not preventing anything - you have a reflex back that is not meant for the Horseman.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Sep-2015, 07:44
That is almost certainly a reflex viewer for a vertical copy camera.

jbenedict
21-Sep-2015, 21:19
. You're almost certainly going to find that you photograph somewhat different subjects in different ways with 4x5 than you have with smaller formats. By purchasing the Horseman you'll be limiting yourself to using a normal lens no longer than about 210mm, which is about the equivalent of 70-80mm with a 35mm camera. I'd find that very limiting in 35mm and I'd find it limiting in 4x5. Maybe you wouldn't but you won't know until you have some experience.
.

Telephoto lenses which can be used with shorter bellows are available relatively cheap (240 and 270 Tele-Xenars) and there are others 300mm + available.I have a 240 Tele-Xenar I use on a Crown Graphic all the time.

Here's a thread about it. There are others: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?15334-telephoto-lens-for-4x5

mandonbossi
22-Sep-2015, 02:55
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to help me get to the bottom of this..

I am still confused as to whether I have the correct reflex finder.. It has "Horseman" clearly written on it and before buying it, I did search the internet to see that I was buying the correct item (at least what it looked like visually).

Here is a link that I looked at before purchasing and came to the conclusion that I was buying the right item

http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/ReflexFinders1.html


I think I also looked at this forum post and saw that a user had attached this successfully to his Toyo.

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/005LXb

I think I figured that because I would be using two Horseman items, that I would have no issue at all..

Hmmm, very frustrating.. :(

Does anybody possibly have this combination and is able to share a picture of the two combined?

Thanks so much in advance, much appreciated!

Richard Wasserman
22-Sep-2015, 06:51
You definitely have the wrong viewer—it looks bigger than the camera! I don't have a Horseman viewer, but did get a Toyo collapsible rubber monocular viewer on my FA. I've attached a couple quick photos. If you are interested I could be convinced to part with it.

Michael Graves
22-Sep-2015, 07:50
The standard advice here is that for most users, the first LF camera they buy is not the one they settle on for the long run. Every camera involves lots of compromises, and without some experience it's hard to know for sure which will suit you best.

That said, in a nutshell, compared to the Technika, the Horseman is substantially smaller and lighter but has restricted movements and bellows draw, a more restricted range of lenses that can be mounted, and more cramped controls.

The Master Technika also has a rangefinder. With an accessory viewfinder and grip, appropriate cams for the lenses, and lots of arm and shoulder strength, it can be used for hand-held work.

As for which I'd recommend as a first LF camera for a beginner, the answer is neither. :) I'd spend much less money, buy a basic wood-field camera, and use it for a while. That may be fine; and if not, you'll know in what specific ways it falls short and can better understand which alternatives might make the most sense for you.

I'm with Oren on this. I have a Technika III, which is admittedly no Master Technika, but is similar enough to compare. And in the past I had the Horseman. I have a Horseman LX which is the best monorail I've ever used and I'll never part with it. But the FA left me feeling cold. Manufacturing quality was nice, but ergonomics left a lot to be desired. I still use the Technika from time to time, just because it's fun to use. But for 90% of my field work, I pull out a Chamonix. A nice wood field camera is easy to use, light-weight and has all the movements you will need, even for most architectural subjects.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2015, 10:01
The Horseman is a beautifully machined little camera but might be restrictive unless you like to work mainly with "normal" focal lengths, that is, slightly wide to
just slightly longer than normal. The triple-extension feature of the Tecknika makes it much more versatile in this respect, but adds more camera weight (and price!).

Richard Wasserman
22-Sep-2015, 10:22
I use an FA as part of a travel kit that I can fly with. It is easy to use, small, lightweight, and when folded pretty bullet proof. I use 90, 135, and 210mm lenses. It doesn't do everything—it would not be a good architecture camera—but for things like landscapes works very well.

mandonbossi
24-Sep-2015, 02:21
Thanks to everyone for their help, greatly appreciated!

I have come to the conclusion that this reflex finder is indeed made to fit the Horseman FA (and yes, it is basically as big as the camera itself) but there is a part missing that would be necessary to make it attach properly..

I am going to send it back to where I purchased it from and use the FA as a small, lightweight 4x5 camera.. As it was intended!

One other question, I read on a forum post (maybe this one) that the Rodenstock Sironar-N 135mm can be folded into the Horseman FA.

Can anybody confirm this? Lens cap on or off?

Thanks again, much appreciated!

ic-racer
24-Sep-2015, 04:41
is indeed made to fit the Horseman FA

Why do you think that. The item you have is not in the Horseman catalogue. There is no "adapter" or additional frame in the Horseman catalogue that would allow accessories to fit on the back of the groundglass back.

Sal Santamaura
24-Sep-2015, 10:10
...I read on a forum post (maybe this one) that the Rodenstock Sironar-N 135mm can be folded into the Horseman FA.

Can anybody confirm this? Lens cap on or off?...The 135mm Apo Sironar N (or its Caltar II-N equivalent), with a 40.5mm filter thread, can remain mounted when a Horseman FA is folded closed. Note that, due to its bulbous front element, this lens will crash into fully seated standard filters. The only exception is a Heliopan 40.5mm filter, which places the glass further forward in its brass mount than most others.

Also note that any filter, even a larger filter on step-up ring (which will not close in the FA), substantially restricts this lens' already small image circle and precludes all but the tiniest front movements.

Jac@stafford.net
24-Sep-2015, 10:38
I have come to the conclusion that this reflex finder is indeed made to fit the Horseman FA intended!

Well, something is really wrong. Look at the place where one puts his eyes to view. It is upside-down, is it not? It is either assembled incorrectly or it is for a vertical copy camera.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=139899&d=1442836513

mandonbossi
25-Sep-2015, 21:52
Thanks again for the responses, much appreciated!

I contacted Mark Power as I remember reading somewhere that he had used this combination in the past (he know uses a Alpa/Phase digital combo I believe) and he seemed to think that it looked like the one he used to use on his Horseman FA.

Here is a quote from his email...

"The viewer looks the same as mine.

It’s been some years since I used a viewer (i stopped after my third one broke and I got used to simply looking at the ground glass screen) but as I remember the viewer should have a part that attaches to the camera on two metal pins on the right side, as you turn it towards the camera body. You push the bottom one into the hole at the back of the camera (I think the hole is there for the very basic viewer that would have come with the camera when new), press down and it’ll allow you to push the bottom pin in place. It then pivots on this ‘hinge’ and you close it shut against the body. It should then work. There should be a tab, part of the back, that sticks out towards the left, again with the back facing the camera, which is the part that you push into place. You have to open it again, on the pivot, to remove it again. You can leave it on, I think, while you insert your darkslide, but I never did in case there was downward pressure which might affect the light seal.

I can’t tell from the picture but the attaching part does come off, so it could be you’ve been sold it without. "


He is an absolute gentleman for taking the time to get back to me and I really admire his work, a very unique vision and eye he has...

To Jac@stafford.net, I am not quite sure what you mean, when I look through the viewer, yes everything does appear upside down but that is as it is meant to be (to correct the upside down image being projected on the Ground Glass)


If this in not meant for the Horseman FA, can anybody show me an image of the correct upright reflex viewer for the Horseman FA? This is the ONLY one I can see anywhere online..

Thanks again. :)

Tin Can
25-Sep-2015, 22:48
You need to find a Horseman catalog. I had one but I must have tossed it with magazines accidently. I just looked again for it.

I have Monorail and metal field Horseman, but they are different in almost all aspects at both ends. Obviously lensboard differ vastly but nothing from a Monorail fits the GG side of the FA/HD in my experience.

China on ebay does offer a folding hood for the HD/FA which may supply parts for what you want.

I use the Chinese folding hood on my HD.

That darn catalog had the whole system...