Keeping track of negatives in the field

[Kermit Burroughs]

Honestly unsure what forum this best went in, so Mods, feel free to move.

How do you keep track of sheet film in the field? Let say you take a primary and a backup of each shot. You could have 2 boxes for primary and backup, but if you developed a primary neg and decided you want to change development for the backup,you'd never know which neg was the backup?
(Now that I'm typing this, I guess you just keep your negs in order and have notes on which is which?)

Last trip I didn't keep track so the backups amounted to nothing but a spare. Not bad in itself, but not the desired outcome.

Is there any really good way to do this?

[Lenny Eiger]

Is there any really good way to do this?

Well, what you are talking about is having a spare to develop differently. I would say that the best way is to get confident about your choice of development and not need a second sheet. If you are this organized already you should be able to nail it.... every time.

<Unabashed plug>If you want a great note taker, you can consider my iPhone app, PhotoToolsPro - see it in the New Product section.</Unabashed plug>

Good luck,

Lenny

[BetterSense]

Have enough film holders to not have to unload them in the field?

[Kermit Burroughs]

Have enough film holders to not have to unload them in the field?

That would get pretty heavy!

[Lenny Eiger]

That would get pretty heavy!

If you're talking 4x5, I think not. I have a small backpack and used to stick 10-12 holders in there. It's very reasonable for an afternoon of shooting. (The rest of them can be in the car.) Weight is all the more reason to take one shot per photo.

And 4x5 holders are dirt cheap. You can buy used ones for very little, in packs of 10 or so. Not so with 8x10's.....

Lenny

[Kermit Burroughs]

Yes, 4x5, but I'm talking possibly a couple of miles to hike. Not positive at this point.
But, even if I tote in 12 holders (very doable), I've still got to be organized when I unload. Other than taking notes and being careful, I can't come up with another solution.

Perhaps I should clarify that I'm talking about a week long trip where I'm camping and flying out and back home. Ready/quikloads would be great, but that ain't happening.

[Lenny Eiger]

But, even if I tote in 12 holders (very doable), I've still got to be organized when I unload. Other than taking notes and being careful, I can't come up with another solution.

I'd take 8 or 10 and be more careful with what you actually shoot... I don't want to belabor this point, but in PhotoToolsPro, there is an area where you can indicate holder# and side. (It also does the zone system calculations for you, including development number.)


Perhaps I should clarify that I'm talking about a week long trip where I'm camping and flying out and back home. Ready/quikloads would be great, but that ain't happening.

I think it is very difficult to keep things ordered from a week long trip. I backpacked and took only one box and kept track of the order - 3 N-3's on the top, then 7 N-2's etc. Drove me crazy and there was way too much handling of the film (scratches, etc.). I always have a box for each development time. I think the answer is to be really careful with choosing your development, and if you feel you need to bracket development, then put one in the N box, the other in the N-1. You shouldn't be more than a stop off... but if you have to, develop all the film. What else you gonna do with it?


Lenny

[BetterSense]

You could simplify a lot by standardizing your development--then you wouldn't have to sort N, N-1 and so on at least. I use variable-contrast paper, and I've just about given up adjusting development for scene contrast (at least with TMAX). I have IR goggles so any adjustment I make is based on DBI.

[Scott Walker]

I carry 10 holders for 8x10 and 25 holders for 4x5 and use Lennys i-phone app (great tool) to keep everything sorted out.

Wanting to work mostly with 8x10 now I can see issuses with bulk & weight in my future, so far I only have 10 holders for 8x10 and it has not been an issue yet as I switch to 4x5 once I am out of 8x10 film.

I don't think packing 25 8x10 holders is going to be happening and that is the number of holders I have become comfortable with so if there is a good way of keeping film sorted out once out of the holders I would love to hear about it as well.

I seldom do a backup immage but if I was to do a complete film change of all my holders in the field that would be 70 sheets of film to try and keep sorted. I know I could not do that without issues unless I developed all the film the same which of course would be silly. :p

[Michael_4514]

I assume you're using an empty film box for your exposed film. Why not just cut up a bunch paper to something just under 4x5, put your shooting notes for each exposure on one, and then put the notes in the box on top of the exposed negative? Sometimes (when I'm feeling really organized) when I load film, I put the loaded holder in a quart sized baggie with a piece of paper noting the type of film and date loaded. The same paper is used for my notes and they could be used to keep track of the exposed film in the box as well.

Most of the time I'm not so organized and just rely on standard shooting and developing techniques and hope for the best.

[Kermit Burroughs]

Lenny - that may well be the best answer, I hadn't really thought about that. Not sure why, but I guess that's why I asked! I know its going to suck to manage all of the negs, but when your flying across country, I really don't want to go but so shy on how much I shoot. And as I don't do this nearly enough, I'm in fact not as exact as I should be.

And, to throw the obligitory suck up in, I bought your app last night. :) Just haven't had a chance to play with it yet. I know a lot of this is simple for you guys, but sometimes another person stating something seemingly obvious makes it all come together for me.

Thanks!

[jp]

I have my film holders numbered; one number on one side, incremented number on the next. That way, I can shoot in order any my notes will match what has been shot if it's more than I can remember or if it's important.

Then in the darkroom, I've added notches to the film with a hole punch. How you notch it doesn' t matter as long as it matches your notes. You could notch each film in different positions downward as your numbers increment, like dictionaries or bibles which have notches in different positions for letters/books, you could do a 4-position binary scheme if you shoot less than 16 sheets at a time. Doesn't matter.

When all is processed, I can then match a negative to my notes.

[mmmdoughnuts]

Lenny - that may well be the best answer, I hadn't really thought about that. Not sure why, ....

I am assuming that you mean develop them all. So, one use for the second copy is to also be able to change the developing if the first did not come out right. Obviously, if you develop the backups, then you can't redo that step.

-Andy

[Kermit Burroughs]

I am assuming that you mean develop them all. So, one use for the second copy is to also be able to change the developing if the first did not come out right. Obviously, if you develop the backups, then you can't redo that step.

-Andy

Right. So, 2 boxes and the negs go in in identical order. I just have to write down the subject for each neg and the number. Its for a couple of reasons. One would be that the exposure sucked and I could take another whack at developing the second. The other reason would be just because sometimes stuff gets messed up/scratched/fogged/whatever. I safety neg. I know this is much more expensive that doing it with roll film, but so be it. As little as I get to shoot stuff like this, it just doesn't matter.

Again, I know this is simple, but I think it takes me writing it out to make it work in my head. Also, you never know. Maybe there is some magic way to do this that someone can talk about.

[Brian C. Miller]

You could get drafting tape and stick it on the film holder, and write your notes on it. Then when you change film, take the drafting tape and stick it onto the film. When you develop the film, take off the tape and stick it on the wall, in order.

Easy!

[Lenny Eiger]

Its for a couple of reasons. One would be that the exposure sucked and I could take another whack at developing the second. The other reason would be just because sometimes stuff gets messed

You can't fix exposure problems with development. For all practical intents and purposes, exposure and development have nothing to do with each other. If you underexposed, you can't over develop to compensate. All you get is additional contrast.

It is possible to imagine a scene is at N-2, when it is at N, and develop incorrectly. There are times when its hard to figure the development, when you have a large range, but the light is actually flat. I find the zone system is almost perfect, but sometimes you have to adjust development based on what you see. (Or do one at N-2 and another at N.) But you can't fix exposure issues...

I also agree with Scott when he says that not varying development is silly....

Finally, if you have any questions or concerns about PhotoToolsPro, give me a call and I'll walk you thru the issue...

Lenny

707-763-5922, I'm in CA, PST.

[mmmdoughnuts]

You can't fix exposure problems with development. For all practical intents and purposes, exposure and development have nothing to do with each other. If you underexposed, you can't over develop to compensate. All you get is additional contrast.

I guess that was my point as well. My back ups are mostly for deciding later what development to give. Ultimately, I guess well, but sometimes I'd like to try to get a little more highlights or not... This was why I would not go and develop all of my N+1 and N and N-1 boxes all at once...

Sometimes, my backups jump into different developers too...

[Lenny Eiger]

I guess that was my point as well. My back ups are mostly for deciding later what development to give. Ultimately, I guess well, but sometimes I'd like to try to get a little more highlights or not... This was why I would not go and develop all of my N+1 and N and N-1 boxes all at once...

Sometimes, my backups jump into different developers too...

Nothing wrong with it....

For me, I just "measure twice, cut once" as they say in carpentry. Since I am carrying 8x10 around, and don't like to carry too many holders, I have to get things right. I also find that film has gotten damned expensive. I usually only take one shot. On occasion I try something else...

Lenny

[Stephane]

For 8x10, I have 7 holders. Just before they are all exposed, I unload them, and here how I do it:
- when I shoot, I write holder number (1-7) and side (A-B), development (N, N+...) and location (GPS waypoint)
- When I unload, I transfer the shooting/dev/loc notes of each shot on envelopes (one sheet/ envelope)
- I store the envelopes in a black bag (from 8x10 paper) inside another inside another and finally in a cardboard folder.
- At home, I develop one by one. I pick one envelop randomly in the dark, put the film in my paterson, turn on the light and get the dev info.
- One the sheet is developed and dried, it goes back into the same envelop onto which I can write future instructions related to the printing.

[Frank Petronio]

An easier compromise might be to simply bracket the second exposure -- or do one a little up, the other down -- and process everything all the same. It's not official perfectly anal precise Zone System dogma. But I bet it gets the information you need on the film ;-) It's what a slob like me would do, but as you know, my pictures suck.

[Kermit Burroughs]

An easier compromise might be to simply bracket the second exposure -- or do one a little up, the other down -- and process everything all the same. It's not official perfectly anal precise Zone System dogma. But I bet it gets the information you need on the film ;-) It's what a slob like me would do, but as you know, my pictures suck.

This is probably more akin to what I actually do. Meter, shoot, repeat...move on.
I'd like to be a little more precise about it, but given my skill level this is probably more appropriate. I still think I'd hold back developing the second just to see the first. I mean, if the first one is poop, what do I have to lose?

[jeroldharter]

When I go on a week long sheet film trip, I take enough empty film boxes to hold all of the exposed film that I have available. In the boxes are enough 4x5 mat boards to insert after every 6 sheets of film. I use BTZS tubes and process 6 sheets at a time. I use the BTZS Palm software for keeping track of the data and development times. At the end of the day, I unload the film holders into the film boxes and make a handwritten backup of the development times for each sheet. In the darkroom, it is a simple matter of starting at the top of the film box and loading 6 tubes at a time and noting the development time from the notes. The mat boards every 6th frame help me stay oriented when I have a full box.

If you use N +/- development, you could use a box for each N unit and forgo the mat board every 6th sheet. Use removable labels on the film holders to note the N at time of shooting:

http://www.amazon.com/Avery-Removable-Coding-Labels-Assorted/dp/B000BMBU9M/ref=sr_1_18?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1282875718&sr=1-18

[ki6mf]

When I shoot a back up negative I carry separate 25 sheet film boxes one for N ,n-1,-2 Compensating + etc as many as you may need. Then I also keep a 5x7 film mailer with 3 Mil black poly bag and place the back up negative in separate mailers. I keep a sheet of exposure notes on each individual exposures and rubber band them onto the mailer. The mailers cost abound $.60 each and may be purchased from Freestyle Photo. They come in sizes from 5X7 ( which I use for 4X5) up to ULF. ULR for the bags:http://www.freestylephoto.biz/5857-Envelope-and-Black-Bag-Set-5x7?cat_id=1603

[Bill Burk]

I do something like Wally, I carry two Grafmatics and 6 spare septums. I made a thing like an apron out of 1.1 silnylon with 6 pockets and have a 25 sheet box in each pocket - one for N-1 N N+1 N+2 one pocket for the fresh film and one pocket for the spare septums. Whole thing folds up into a stuff sack. I sewed a silver milagro near the middle top so I can feel which way is up.
The Grafmatics cycle through 6 sheets, so I keep notes of my N-numbers and sort them into the correct box as I unload.
No way to do backup shots, and all the shots are dumped in - but at least they're organized by N number.

[Diane Maher]

I had a week-long workshop back in May and was shooting 8x10. I kept notes in the field for each numbered holder and unloaded after each day's shooting. On the outside of each box, I would indicate which holders I had used that day and possibly what the order of them was in the box (smaller numbers at the bottom of the stack). I am still developing them. :o I shot 93 negatives. I just need to sit down and label things appropriately. :eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

Diane

[Daniel Stone]

I've adopted M.A.S.'s technique after assisting him in Iceland this summer:

# your holders, each side is a different #, so for example:

holders #1= #'s 1,2
holder #2= #'s 3,4

and so on. Shooting holders in ORDER, and then writing exposure information(I don't record exposure, unless its a long one, just so I can remember for reciprocity adjustment to time given), lens used(14" for example, this is for troubleshooting if I find a problem for instance), date, subject(what is in the shot, I D.B.I., so this is imperative to be able to determine which sheets are which in the tray when developing, so to give proper development to each sheet since times vary for each individual negative). Also include date and type of light(soft, overcast, harsh contrasty, etc...)

then I unload the film holders IN THE ORDER I SHOT THEM, into a box, and make sure to NOT LOSE MY EXPOSURE BOOKLET. I just get a 99c store notepad(3x4") spiral bound, works like a charm.

just keep your film in the same order you shot it while downloading film holders, and you shouldn't have a problem at all

-Dan

EDIT: this system allows you download +, N and - sheets all in the same box. Very convenient, especially if you're backpacking

In the field, I carry 5-6 8x10 holders(wooden kodak's), or 8-10 4x5 holders at a time. This generally allows me approx 1 full day of photographing(since I'm very choosy), but if I need to download film, it isn't much of a problem to stop for 15min or so and change out film from the holders. Done this on the trail too, just find a wooden table to put your changing tent on :). Much easier than a rock :D

[Lenny Eiger]

I still think I'd hold back developing the second just to see the first. I mean, if the first one is poop, what do I have to lose?

Yea, but what for? Costs you double, twice the weight. Are you that concerned about the development time? Are you trying to match contrast exactly?

Lenny

[biglewsmi]

I use a pack of of small post it flags. After making the shot I jot down what ever info I need to know and stick the flag on the dark slide. When I'm ready to process the film just pull off the flag and place on table until film is done, then I attach the flag to my film hanger while the film dries. If I had to unload a holder without processing I would stick the flag on the backside of the negative since the do not leave adhesive residue there should be no problem removing it when ready to process. Works for me.

[Kermit Burroughs]

Yea, but what for? Costs you double, twice the weight. Are you that concerned about the development time? Are you trying to match contrast exactly?

Lenny

Perhaps I'm just being cautious for no reason. You are probably right. I could adjust dev if the first one was botched, but I realize it wouldn't make up for a bad exposure. Just thinking maybe I could make a bad exposure easier to print.

[John Bowen]

I've adopted M.A.S.'s technique after assisting him in Iceland this summer:

# your holders, each side is a different #, so for example:

holders #1= #'s 1,2
holder #2= #'s 3,4

and so on. Shooting holders in ORDER, and then writing exposure information(I don't record exposure, unless its a long one, just so I can remember for reciprocity adjustment to time given), lens used(14" for example, this is for troubleshooting if I find a problem for instance), date, subject(what is in the shot, I D.B.I., so this is imperative to be able to determine which sheets are which in the tray when developing, so to give proper development to each sheet since times vary for each individual negative). Also include date and type of light(soft, overcast, harsh contrasty, etc...)

then I unload the film holders IN THE ORDER I SHOT THEM, into a box, and make sure to NOT LOSE MY EXPOSURE BOOKLET. I just get a 99c store notepad(3x4") spiral bound, works like a charm.

just keep your film in the same order you shot it while downloading film holders, and you shouldn't have a problem at all

-Dan

EDIT: this system allows you download +, N and - sheets all in the same box. Very convenient, especially if you're backpacking

In the field, I carry 5-6 8x10 holders(wooden kodak's), or 8-10 4x5 holders at a time. This generally allows me approx 1 full day of photographing(since I'm very choosy), but if I need to download film, it isn't much of a problem to stop for 15min or so and change out film from the holders. Done this on the trail too, just find a wooden table to put your changing tent on :). Much easier than a rock :D

Daniel,

Thanks!

[jim kitchen]

Dear Kermit,

A good question, which has gathered many answers... :)

I number my negative holders, where each side of the film holder is number one through ten, since I only carry five 8X10 film holders per excursion.

I record the exposed negative number within my notes, where exposing a second negative is not done, but I do expose a second negative if, and, when I believe that the wind jostled my camera. I do not vary my exposure, because I do not believe I need too, but I would vary the exposure time if it were an extremely long time exposure, and my meter could not read the deepest darkest shadows properly.

I return home or to my camp base, where I review my exposure notes to determine which negative requires what development time and dilution, and once I make that decision I store the exposed negative in an old labeled film box, such as N-1, Normal, N+1, et al.

I reload the film holders, and travel again, where I repeat the process, until I am done exposing film for the day, or the trip. My negatives are sorted based upon my desired development time, as determined by my exposure record notes, and I develop them as recorded, and stored.

jim k