First Camera Buying Advice?

[Sam N]

I'm a complete noob to LF and I'm about to start a photography course that requires a 4x5 view camera. I've read up about the cameras quite a bit (including this guide (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html), but I have no idea what to get or where to get it.

I have several options right now:

1) Rent a Toyo 45G (or GII) with a 210mm lens for about $600
I'd rather not do this because I'd still need to buy most of the other accessories (holders, etc.) and I'd end up with no camera at the end of the courses.

2) A Toyo-Omega 45D from Craigslist with a couple of Geronar (lower end?) lenses and pretty much everything else I'd need (film holders, polaroid back, filters, case, etc.) for $600.
One of the rear tilt tightening mechanisms is broken, but the one on the other side works fine. I'm not sure if this will make it hard to keep the standards parallel or if it will be ok. Either way, I doubt it will be easy to repair since it's such an old camera.
The Geronars apparently have smaller image circles than the higher end / faster lenses. The 45D also does not have a removable bellows.

3) Some kind of a setup from KEH?
A Cambo Legend seems like it would do well and they're under $300. Another few hundred for a 180 or 210mm lens, lensboard, holders, etc. I have no idea what kinds of lenses I should be getting or which boards fit which cameras / lenses.

4) Try eBay?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Brian Stein]

You are right about option 1. If you like LF you have the camera, if you dont you should be able to recoup most of your cost.

The 45D is capable, and once stopped down a bit the geronars are capable of excellent results. see http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/test/BigMash210.html and dont get too hung up about the lens as long as it has coverage (geronars tend to cover a bit more than their focal length: the 210 will cover 230 mm: you want to cover 150mm on 45). For that price I would be wanting a non-broken camera, even though it is unlikely to have a major impact on function.

KEH in my experience has always been good when buying Ex grade, Bgn can be more iffy. There are many threads extolling the virtues of the humble but functional calumet 400 ($149). Lens board will need to fit the camera for the calumet figure $30 each.
For lenses you can probably get by with just one, unless there are some special requirements in the course. A normal lens (somewhere in the region of 135 to 180) of slightly older vintage will set you back around the 200 mark. Choose one with coverage enough for movements (in other words avoid tessars like the xenars: they are excellent lenses but will leave you little room for movements). Big advantages for keh are return policy decent choice and ability to get it now.

Ebay is fine if you have the time to shop carefully, otherwise prices are not a whole bunch different from KEH. I would also look at the classifieds here and on APUG: you are more likely to get a reliable indication of the condition of the item and I think prices are very competitive with ebay. Problem is if you need it now you may not get it.

[Frank Petronio]

Yoh those are high prices. Be patient and watch this forum's For Sale section. You can get a great monorail for $200-300, same for lenses.

[Sam N]

Thanks for the advice guys. My instructor also warned that the broken knob will probably cause headaches down the road. I'll keep looking on KEH I guess. Are there any specific 180 or 210mm f5.6 lenses you'd recommend?

I just signed up, so I won't have access to this forum's buy/sell for another month (unless an admin wants to hook me up).

BTW Frank you're one of my favorite posters on RFF.

[Brian Stein]

180-210 lenses: anything by schneider, rodenstock, nikon or fuji will be more than sufficient. At this focal length pretty much all the various lens designs will provide movements. As an aside 210 is a little longer than many folks use on 4x5 as a normal lens and 180 is starting to stretch the friendship: is this because you see "long" or required by class or ...

[Sam N]

Good point Brian. The kits the rental place give out come with 180s or 210s, but I don't think the class requires those focal lengths. There will be a lot of tabletop / product photography in addition to a few outdoor / architectural assignments, so maybe a 150 would be more flexible.

[ki6mf]

Once in while Calumet has pretty good deals on LF cameras with lenses. These are returned from a student rental program. I have seen these out or their Chicago office. Also if you have the time checking Craig's list can find some relatively good deals. Most normal lenses for 4X5 are 135 or 150mm and these are also the lowest priced. The bargain Lenses from KEH list are usually excellent quality!

[Frank Petronio]

It's refreshing to see a newbie want to get started with a proper monorail camera rather than one of the trendy overpriced folding toy box cameras made from toothpick wood.... Most of the old farts here want pretty yet fragile cameras and pretend they are going to hike through the wilderness with a bag of granola and their Carbon Fiber tripod. What they won't admit is that they are simply addicted to gear acquisition, not so much photography itself ;-)

Instead you're opting for a real camera where you can clearly see the movements you are making and you can lock things down and a stray gust of wind won't knock it down. And because you are strong-like-bull you can handle the 3-5-lb weight differential between a classic monorail and a $4000 Titanium and Teak folding box.

I'm not going to vouch for the seller or anything, buyer beware and all, but this is typical of what you can find on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/4x5-SINAR-F-camera-w-shown-acccesories-/200510347734?pt=Film_Cameras#ht_6947wt_913

$350 for a Sinar F1 with accessories is pretty darn good in my book, that's a camera a lot of working photographers dreamed of owning for years ago and there is nothing you can't shoot with it.

Here is another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rock-Solid-Sinar-4x5-F-Camera-Body-/370419432413?pt=Film_Cameras#ht_6714wt_913

Of course there are idiots attempting to sell the same camera for 3x more but the market sets the going price. If you buy on auction instead of Buy it Now you can get these for even less, I've seen lovely Sinar Fs go for under $300 all the time.

Now you can just as easily find even better deals on quality Toyo, Cambo, and Horseman monorail, they are clearly the best bang for the buck. I think Sinars are worth a little more since you are buying into a vast system that allows you to expand the camera, there is also a larger market for parts such as lenboards and such. But I bought a classic Cambo a few months back and it was beautifully made (it was a 60s-era model) and only $200. Older Arca-Swiss, Linhof, and other brands can also be tremendous, but sometimes parts are hard to find or the bellows are shot, etc.

It's hard to destroy a Sinar bellows and they are only $50-60 to replace if you do.

As for lenses, you'll learn just as well with any of the normal lenses 150mm to 210mm. Many schools choose 210mm lenses because they are a tad longer which make the a bit nicer for portraits and products shots, they also have larger image circles than the same version in shorter lengths. Having a larger image circle is nicer to learn with because then you can actually make some more significant camera movements without vignetting. 210mm are also popular and inexpensive on the used market. Look for late model ones from the big manufacturers, the black rim Copal shutters are newer than the chrome rimmed ones.

A quick search:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rodenstock-Sironar-N-210mm-f-5-6-Copal-1-/170531396824?pt=Camera_Lenses#ht_2452wt_1139

$200 and good to go.

Add film holders and a $8 loupe and whatnot. Keep the camera in a plastic beer cooler. Save enough for a hefty tripod, something at least as big as a $100 Tiltall.

(Now if you are not Sam and really want a rugged folding light box camera, apply the same attitude as above but look for a late model Graflex Pacemaker Crown Graphic with a 135mm Schneider Xenar and a top rangefinder. They sell for $2-300 and while they lack all the camera movements of fancier field cameras, they are great for backpacking and abuse. Some people will tell you those cameras are limited as far as movements go... well for the money that they have into their "less limited" camera you can own a Crown and a Sinar and still afford to buy film, so politely ignore their whininess.)

KEH and other dealers are fine too. Don't necessarily take everything they say as gospel though, it depends who you talk to there, some are very inexperienced with large format gear.

If you're unsure of something ask quietly for an opinion so as not to jinx the sale, but if you stick to the big name stuff and use some common sense as to the sellers, you'll do fine.

[AgentX]

Why not get an old Calumet (C400 series, I believe) for $100-200 on Ebay? Or an Orbit or Graphic View?

bombproof, heavy, lots of movements if not as refined as a more expensive modern camera...holds your lens, holds your film holder...what else do you really need at this point?

Learn your likes/dislikes on the Calumet and get another 4x5 if you stick with it and find there's something critical or helpful for you photography that another camera offers.


edit: Oooh, check out this Orbit! Just under $3,800!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-ORBIT-BURKE-JAMES-Mono-Rail-Camera-RARE-/370417009288?pt=Film_Cameras#ht_1463wt_1139
:eek: :eek: :eek:

What the hell are some people thinking?? Am I missing something?


Edit II: This was seriously the kind of thing I was talking about:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Graphic-View-4x5-Camera-Very-Good-Condition-/150484544133?pt=Film_Cameras

$100 for a Graphic View including tripod block.

[Peter De Smidt]

I have an Calumet cc-400, and it's a decent camera. Things like the cork spacers between the joints can lose their effectiveness, though, and so it could take a little work to get the camera in good, operating condition.

[Bob McCarthy]

I'm toying with selling my Sinar F. It still looks very good, hard to say like new but damn close.

Sinar, bag bellows, reflex viewer are all part of the package.

Oh yea, I put in a Steve Hofp ground glass in recently. (hmmm, that seems misspelled)

I have a 9+ Caltar II-N 90 I might part with. It's a Rodenstock lens, marketed by Calumet.

I'm just not using it much, (moved to 8x10) is only reason I'd concider selling!! Outstanding first, or realistically forever camera.

bob

[Sam N]

I called Toyo's parts department and apparently I can get the replacement part for the 45D. Would $450 be a good price for the kit mentioned in the first post? It's a 45D (with 1 broken knob which is apparently the same as that on a 45C), a 150mm Geronar f6.3 and a 210mm Geronar f6.8, case, dark cloth, filters, 3 film holders, and a polaroid back.

[AgentX]

I think the value of one-stop shopping shouldn't be overrated, and that price for the camera with two lenses plus the accessories seems great to me...

I'd do it.

[John Kasaian]

If this is for a class, your instructor should offer more guidence. Even an inexpensive kit ins't "cheap" ;)

[John Koehrer]

Here's one from Chicago CL sale-p2yem-1916815428@craigslist.org Not mine,this one & another similar have been popping up here for a while.

[Sam N]

Thanks for the help. I just picked up the 45D. The 150mm Geronar is going to be lacking a bit in image circle, but the 210 should do ok. Replacement parts are going to be pretty cheap, and I liked the fact that it comes with a case, darkcloth, filters, etc.

The bellows are not changeable, but I will apparently be able to use the school's own studio cameras for the 1 or 2 assignments the 45D might not be able to handle.

[Sam N]

Another gear question.

My Manfrotto 3001BPRO (legs rated at 11lbs... camera is 8-9 lbs) and 488RC2 support the camera, but only just. Can anyone recommend a nice solid tripod and head that wouldn't be overkill? I'd like to avoid buying and carrying a huge and expensive 3051 if possible, but I'd like a decent amount of stability as well.

[Michael_4514]

edit: Oooh, check out this Orbit! Just under $3,800!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-ORBIT-BURKE-JAMES-Mono-Rail-Camera-RARE-/370417009288?pt=Film_Cameras#ht_1463wt_1139
:eek: :eek: :eek:

What the hell are some people thinking?? Am I missing something?



Apparently my net worth just increased by about $3,700.

[Sam N]

I know some people like to use video tripods for LF work since most cameras have revolving backs.

Anyone have experience with this Davis and Sanford setup (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/243272-REG/Davis_Sanford_PROVISTA7518B_Provista_7518_Tripod_w_FM18.html) and a monorail?

[gth]

Man, these Sinars look sweet. How does the back work on them? Are they "universal" Graflock backs? Or just spring backs?

Have bunch of roll film and Polaroid holders it would be nice to use.

What is the widest lens you can use on them without recessed lens board?

/gth

[Frank Petronio]

Google works really well for some questions....

[Brian Stein]

Another gear question.

My Manfrotto 3001BPRO (legs rated at 11lbs... camera is 8-9 lbs) and 488RC2 support the camera, but only just. Can anyone recommend a nice solid tripod and head that wouldn't be overkill? I'd like to avoid buying and carrying a huge and expensive 3051 if possible, but I'd like a decent amount of stability as well.

Franks advice on the Tiltall is good.

If you are going to continue with photography in general look at this http://www.bythom.com/support.htm to put the whole tripod thing in context. You dont need to go as high end as he does, but think long term for tripods and heads.

[Bob McCarthy]

Man, these Sinars look sweet. How does the back work on them? Are they "universal" Graflock backs? Or just spring backs?

Have bunch of roll film and Polaroid holders it would be nice to use.

What is the widest lens you can use on them without recessed lens board?

/gth

The back is a spring back, but has tension release levers so insertion of a roll film back is simple and easy. I've used MikeK's betterlight scanning back w/o any issue whatsoever, and it's thicker than the roll film holder I used to own.

With bag bellows, almost any short lens is usable. Widest I've owned and put on the camera was a 65 with a flat board. Sure it could go much wider.

bob

[Clive Gray]

you can use a 47XL on a flat board on a F (http://www.flickr.com/photos/abbandon/4590296586/sizes/l/in/set-72157618644348542/) with the standard wide bellows although wide bellows 2 reportedly make life easier.

[Peter De Smidt]

Clive is right. I've used a 47XL on a flat board with the standard bag bellows.

[Frank Petronio]

Just buy this, a Tiltall tripod, and five holders:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cambo-4x5-Outfit-w-Schneider-Symmar-S-210-MORE-/370424596353?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item563f06c781#ht_1711wt_1139

[Brian Stein]

Just buy this, a Tiltall tripod, and five holders:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cambo-4x5-Outfit-w-Schneider-Symmar-S-210-MORE-/370424596353?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item563f06c781#ht_1711wt_1139

hell, it comes with 6 holders and a dark cloth. just get the tiltall, a meter (or use your slr), a loupe, and a box of film and rock and roll.

[sully75]

Just bought a Tiltall on Frank's (and others) recomendation, and not sure why I was messing around with all kinds of prosumer crap for so long. $30 buys a lot of used tripod.