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Keith Tapscott.
24-Aug-2010, 11:55
I am considering buying a 3010 Expert-Drum, but I am worried about the maximum processing solution-volumes in this chart. http://www.jobo.com/web/Expert-Drums.338.0.html

I want to use D-76 diluted 1+1, but the chart says 330ml is the maximum it holds which would be just 33ml for each 4x5 sheet. Are there any users here of this drum and developer?

Films will be FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus and I have a CPA2 with lift if that helps.

dbla
24-Aug-2010, 11:59
I'm interested in this as well, will follow the discussion... :-/

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
24-Aug-2010, 12:13
That page is wrong, the correct maximum for the 3010 and 3006 should be 1000ml. (http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_misc_expert_drums.htm) If you put much more in it will spill out as it turns.

Of course, this may still not meet the minimum requirements for D76 and you might have to use fewer than 10 sheets at a time.

ScottM
24-Aug-2010, 12:18
I've been using 10 sheets of HP5 with 1L of developer (Xtol @ 1:1) without any problems.

From Jobo.com

Drum #3010
10 pieces of 4 x 5" film or paper
Solution required
Minimum 210 ml
Maximum 1000 ml

Keith Tapscott.
24-Aug-2010, 12:39
Jason and Scott, thanks for the correction to the link I posted. I thought the maximum volume of just 330ml seemed odd.
As for the minimum requirements of developer, Ilford's suggestion of 100ml of stock ID-11 for each 80 square inches of film is well within the limit if I can use a litre of 1+1 working strength developer. Their 1+3 dilution would be just on the limit.

Thanks again,

Keith.

Sal Santamaura
24-Aug-2010, 12:43
Per the capacity chart at the top of page 7 of this document

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

250ml of stock D-76 is required for each 80 square inches of film. Since a 3010 drum can hold no more than 1000ml, at 1:1 dilution you will be limited to 8 4x5 sheets.

Keith Tapscott.
24-Aug-2010, 12:49
Per the capacity chart at the top of page 7 of this document

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

250ml of stock D-76 is required for each 80 square inches of film. Since a 3010 drum can hold no more than 1000ml, at 1:1 dilution you will be limited to 8 4x5 sheets.It seems that Ilford are a bit more conservative in their estimations than Kodak. ;)

Thanks Sal.

Oren Grad
24-Aug-2010, 13:03
Per the capacity chart at the top of page 7 of this document

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

250ml of stock D-76 is required for each 80 square inches of film. Since a 3010 drum can hold no more than 1000ml, at 1:1 dilution you will be limited to 8 4x5 sheets.

At least in my experience, that's very conservative. I use 4 US fl ounces of straight D-76 per 8x10 sheet, with proportionate amounts for smaller and larger sheets, and it works fine. For smaller sheets where that would come out to too low a solution volume for the drum, I dilute to 1+1.

Sal Santamaura
24-Aug-2010, 13:10
It seems that Ilford are a bit more conservative in their estimations than Kodak...I'm not sure about "conservative." :)

I assume you concluded that Ilford suggests 100ml of stock ID-11 for each 80 square inches of film from the table on the right side of page 7 in this data sheet:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200621612182416.pdf

Note that the table is introduced with a restriction: "...provided that the developer is reused."

Also note the last statement on page 8:


"We do not recommend reusing diluted developers, 1+1 and 1+3, always use fresh solutions on each occasion."

I cannot find any part of the Ilford data sheet that addresses capacity when used at 1:1 dilution and one-shot. Given the similarity between D-76 and ID-11, I'd suggest following the Kodak 250ml of stock per 80 square inch capacity limitation.

Sal Santamaura
24-Aug-2010, 13:23
...I use 4 US fl ounces of straight D-76 per 8x10 sheet, with proportionate amounts for smaller and larger sheets, and it works fine..."Works fine" is a subjective judgement.

Manufacturers' capacity specifications are designed to assure adequate active developer regardless of scene content. If one photographs scenes that integrate to middle gray or darker, half Kodak's specified minimum will be sufficient. If the scene integrates to brighter than middle gray, which should a result in a negative that integrates to darker than middle gray, there will be insufficient active developing agent in half Kodak's specified minimum. Whether one finds that negative "fine" is a personal call.

I prefer to avoid "compensating" development unless intentionally seeking it. :)

Brian C. Miller
24-Aug-2010, 15:02
You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one 135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time by 10 percent (see the following tables).

Sal, I think that Oren might be using a longer development time for his film. 4oz diluted 1:1 is 8oz, so +10% to development time and then discard.

Oren Grad
24-Aug-2010, 15:39
"Works fine" is a subjective judgement.

Agreed! As always, it's important to run one's own tests.

Brian, I've found that the ISO 400 times for D-76 in the Ilford HP5 Plus data sheet, used for rotary development in Jobo Expert drums on a CPA-2, give me negatives that contact print to my taste with generally near-neutral color head filter settings on Ilford VC papers. Yes, the times are correspondingly longer, per the chart, on those occasions when I use diluted developer. I'm generally using D-76 straight for whole plate and larger, 1+1 for 5x7 and smaller.

Bruce Watson
25-Aug-2010, 07:42
A 3010 drum can at least handle 1 liter. I process 10 sheets of TMY-2 using 1 liter of XTOL 1:3 in mine all the time. That is 250ml of XTOL stock and 750 ml of distilled water. Works a treat.

mandoman7
25-Aug-2010, 07:56
No one has mentioned wear and tear on the machinery, which is a consideration since repair of these is problematic. My machine handles 500ml way better than one liter or more. Yes, there are manufacturer's quantities of developer to address, but testing, IMO, is more conclusive than corporate advice in general.

venchka
25-Aug-2010, 08:24
A 3010 drum can at least handle 1 liter. I process 10 sheets of TMY-2 using 1 liter of XTOL 1:3 in mine all the time. That is 250ml of XTOL stock and 750 ml of distilled water. Works a treat.

I switched from D76 1:1 to Xtol 1:3 for this and other reasons. Works like a charm. Rodinal 1:100 (700ml for 7 sheets) works fine too.

Keith Tapscott.
25-Aug-2010, 11:19
Considering that Kodak no longer recommend dilutions weaker than 1+1 for Xtol and that Bruce and Venchka are happy with their results with the 1+3 dilution, I think that a litre of D-76 diluted 1+1 should be OK.

venchka
25-Aug-2010, 11:59
I'm sure it is. You will know after the first batch. There were other reasons why I tried Xtol and am staying with it. And working my way back to Rodinal as well.
There is no replacement for testing.

Keith Tapscott.
25-Aug-2010, 12:47
Another option for me would be buying the 3006 drum instead, but that means processing only 6 film-sheets at a time.

dsphotog
25-Aug-2010, 12:56
No one has mentioned wear and tear on the machinery, which is a consideration since repair of these is problematic. My machine handles 500ml way better than one liter or more. Yes, there are manufacturer's quantities of developer to address, but testing, IMO, is more conclusive than corporate advice in general.

I agree with John,
I think a litre will strain the Jobo motor...
Might be better to use an expendable Uniroller or Beseler motor base.

venchka
25-Aug-2010, 13:23
By the way, in recent years, Kodak dropped the 8ozs/80 sq. in. notice in the D76 tech. information. I forget how it reads now, but the 8/80 warning was gone the last time I looked.

Sal Santamaura
25-Aug-2010, 14:10
By the way, in recent years, Kodak dropped the 8ozs/80 sq. in. notice in the D76 tech. information. I forget how it reads now, but the 8/80 warning was gone the last time I looked.It's still there. See the link in my post #6 above.

venchka
25-Aug-2010, 14:46
It's still there. See the link in my post #6 above.

Thanks. I missed that a year or two ago. They also cover their bases by adding time if using less than 8ozs. of D76. That would be proved with testing also.
I guess I should start using my 8 or 10 1 gallon bags of D76.

eman
27-Aug-2010, 10:04
Here is the print out that came with my Jobo drums, which are the 3010 and 3005. Color chemistry recommendations were considerably less IIRC.
Eric

Kodachrome25
20-Jun-2012, 12:05
Old thread alert...

So I am trying to get this straight. Yesterday, I souped 6 sheets of TMX 100 in my CPP2 / 3010 in D76 1+1 for 90% of the non-rotary time in 600ML of chemistry and it came out fine. I would like to be able to do up to 10 sheets but don't want to strain the motor ( have a spare ) with 1L of chemistry, would prefer to use between 750-800ml for up to 10 sheets of 4x5.

I also want to start using Xtol. Where can I find the data sheets that clearly explain volume per sheet, not the Jobo one?

dbla
20-Jun-2012, 12:09
I usually use 250ml in the 4x5 jobo drum with good result. Dunno if that's technically correct but my pitchers look good.

Kodachrome25
20-Jun-2012, 12:55
I usually use 250ml in the 4x5 jobo drum with good result. Dunno if that's technically correct but my pitchers look good.

What drum, how many sheets and what developer?

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2012, 13:57
Old thread alert...I souped 6 sheets of TMX 100...in D76 1+1...in 600ML of chemistry and it came out fine...Since this is an old thread, the answer to your first question is already here. Scroll up to post #6, read it and review the noted section of the linked Kodak document. For one-shot use, to avoid the risk that images you're developing will exhaust the active agent in D-76, 250ml of stock solution is required for each 80 square inches of film. With 6 4x5 sheets, you needed 375ml of stock, which is 750ml of working solution at 1+1. "Came out fine" means you lucked out this time. Adhering to the manufacturer's data or not is the difference between confidence or crap shoot.


...I also want to start using Xtol. Where can I find the data sheets that clearly explain volume per sheet, not the Jobo one?XTOL has much more capacity per ml of stock solution than D-76. Only 100ml of stock is required for each 80 square inches of film. See the middle of the second column on page 2 of this Kodak document


http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

for that information. Therefore, if using XTOL 1+1 to develop 10 4x5 sheets in a 3010 drum, 250ml of stock plus 250ml of water will do the job. Much less strain on your Jobo's motor than D-76, where you'd be limited to 8 sheets in a full liter of working solution at 1+1.

Listen to Internet experts or the chemistry's manufacturer -- the choice is yours. Confidence or crap shoot. :)

dbla
20-Jun-2012, 17:07
I typically use a jobo expert drum, and develop with 300ml of 1-1 xtol. Me results are fine, and repeatable.

dbla
20-Jun-2012, 17:08
*my not me

Paul Ewins
20-Jun-2012, 17:14
Note the table above in post #23; this gives the minimum amount of chemistry required to properly develop B&W film in a 3010. That has nothing to do with the strength of the developer, it is all about actually keeping the developer active on all sheets. I use ID11 @ 1+1 which has a capacity that matches those figures so I just use it as a one shot and discard after use. If I used it at full strength I would still need the same volume of developer but could retain the developer and use it for a second batch. Conversely if I went to 1+3 then I would need a full litre which might strain the motor. It sounds like XTOL would be a better match for Jobo processing than D76.

FWIW here are the dilutions needed to match the Jobo 3005/3010 minimums for a few Ilford developers: ID 11: 1+1, DD-X: 1+9, LC 29: 1+19, Perceptol: stock.

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2012, 17:39
I typically use a jobo expert drum, and develop with 300ml of 1-1 xtol. My results are fine, and repeatable.


What drum, how many sheets and what developer?The only question you've answered is "what developer."

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2012, 17:47
Note the table above in post #23; this gives the minimum amount of chemistry required to properly develop B&W film in a 3010. That has nothing to do with the strength of the developer, it is all about actually keeping the developer active on all sheets...That appears to be something developed by the Jobo USA folks in Michigan after doing their own testing. It probably incorporates some "crap shoot" factor based on what was assumed to be a "typical" scene. It doesn't seem to deviate much from the 250ml stock per 80 square inches of film that's required for D-76 and many other non-XTOL developers.


...It sounds like XTOL would be a better match for Jobo processing than D76...Definitely, especially if one must contend with high ambient temperatures. The ability of XTOL to get by with 100ml of stock per 80 square inches of film means it can be diluted more, extending times so they're still long enough even when processing at 81 degrees F, which I'm forced to do in the summer here.

eman
20-Jun-2012, 19:55
You could have used 350-400 w/no issues.
For 10 sheets 500 will work but if dilution is a worry, add a little more. This won't strain the motor and you can always move the 'crow's foot' out of the way and do a mono directional agitation. The results are the same and I've tested it with the densitometer I sold here. I've just moved to Bangkok and don't know where all my tests are to supply a visual aid so take my word for it.
I've switched to using mono directional agitation for all my large format (3005/3010) to reduce motor strain.


Old thread alert...

So I am trying to get this straight. Yesterday, I souped 6 sheets of TMX 100 in my CPP2 / 3010 in D76 1+1 for 90% of the non-rotary time in 600ML of chemistry and it came out fine. I would like to be able to do up to 10 sheets but don't want to strain the motor ( have a spare ) with 1L of chemistry, would prefer to use between 750-800ml for up to 10 sheets of 4x5.

I also want to start using Xtol. Where can I find the data sheets that clearly explain volume per sheet, not the Jobo one?

Paul Ewins
20-Jun-2012, 20:15
That appears to be something developed by the Jobo USA folks in Michigan after doing their own testing. It probably incorporates some "crap shoot" factor based on what was assumed to be a "typical" scene. It doesn't seem to deviate much from the 250ml stock per 80 square inches of film that's required for D-76 and many other non-XTOL developers.

I was thinking more in terms of the rotational aspect of the expert drums with the developer draining from the tubes as they move towards the top of the drum and then refilling on the way back round. I'm guessing that at the normal speed the developer doesn't have time to drain off completely so that there is always some developer around and behind each sheet. With more sheets of film you would need more developer to cover the amount still adhering to each sheet. What I don't understand is why the minimums are lower for E6 and C41 (330ml for 10 sheets in a 3010) than for B&W (500ml for 10 sheets in a 3010).

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2012, 20:44
I was thinking more in terms of the rotational aspect of the expert drums with the developer draining from the tubes as they move towards the top of the drum and then refilling on the way back round. I'm guessing that at the normal speed the developer doesn't have time to drain off completely so that there is always some developer around and behind each sheet. With more sheets of film you would need more developer to cover the amount still adhering to each sheet...For a good look at the developer's behavior in an Expert drum, watch this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0ZsaHw93B4&feature=g-upl&context=G20d3175AUAAAAAAABAA

At normal rotational speed, it doesn't seem like the amount of chemistry that drains from a chamber would be impacted by the presence or absence of film. By the way, thanks for that video, Greg!


...What I don't understand is why the minimums are lower for E6 and C41 (330ml for 10 sheets in a 3010) than for B&W (500ml for 10 sheets in a 3010).I have virtually zero knowledge about color chemistry, but your puzzlement supports my conjecture that Jobo's recommended minimums for black and white were based on developer capacity and testing. Color chemistry probably contains much more active ingredient per ml of concentrate.

Kodachrome25
20-Jun-2012, 22:25
Great, great info guys, thanks!

It just so happens I used up my last 1L packet of D-76 and recently got in a shipment of 10 5L Xtol kits ( have about 20 1 gallon D-76 packets for other films ).

I am moving to Xtol for my TMX anyway so this will be perfect...

wiggywag
13-Jul-2012, 14:52
I have increased my amount of chemistry lately and getting better negatives. With Xtol I use 50ml stock pr 4x5 sheet, that is double the minimum than Kodak suggests. If you go for the the absolute minimum you are not getting the best out of your negatives.

Paul Ewins
13-Jul-2012, 17:46
Had another thought about the minimum volumes required being different for colour and B&W. The concentration for the E6 and C41 kits is fixed, so perhaps the volume of the drum was designed around that, i.e. 330ml for 10 sheets is close to the minimum amount of chemistry for satisfactory development. With ID11 (my usual developer) the amount of straight developer required for 10 sheets of 4x5 is 250ml, which might be less than the volume required to properly cover the sheets during development. To get to 330ml the options would be to use 33% more straight developer than required or to dilute it. The first dilution factor with published times is 1:1, giving 500ml of chemistry. It might just be that enough of the usual B&W developers were the same so that it was easier to call 500ml the B&W minimum so that people could just use published times and dilutions. I'm sure there would be plenty of less experienced people who if told that 330ml was the right amount of chemistry would then tie themselves in knots trying to work out how to achieve that figure.

Sal Santamaura
13-Jul-2012, 19:54
Per the capacity chart at the top of page 7 of this document

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

250ml of stock D-76 is required for each 80 square inches of film. Since a 3010 drum can hold no more than 1000ml, at 1:1 dilution you will be limited to 8 4x5 sheets.Nothing has changed in the two years since I wrote that post #6. Except for two-part vs. single-packet packaging, ID-11 = D-76.


...With ID11 (my usual developer) the amount of straight developer required for 10 sheets of 4x5 is 250ml...That is not correct. 10 sheets = 200 square inches. 200 divided by 80 = 2.5 250 ml X 2.5 = 625 ml. The required quantity of undiluted ID-11 for 10 sheets 0f 4x5 is 625 ml.


...I'm sure there would be plenty of less experienced people who if told that 330ml was the right amount of chemistry would then tie themselves in knots trying to work out how to achieve that figure.Aside from the fact that 625 ml and not 330 ml is the right amount, why is achieving any specific quantity difficult? Mix the stock solution and use what's necessary!