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dbla
22-Aug-2010, 21:41
Hey guys,

New user here, I am about to begin a project in C-41 4x5 and would like to do most of the developing at home... I recently bought a barely used Jobo CPA-2 with various drums and reels including the expert drum that accommodates the 4x5 sheets. I guess I am simply looking for some general information about what else I'll need... And some recommendations as to what chemical to use, and drying techniques etc... I appreciate the help in advance!

-a

Richard Littlewood
22-Aug-2010, 23:46
Been looking into this myself recently. I think c41 these days is a pretty straight foreward process and one that probably pays to do exactly what it says in the chemistry instructions.
I've had tons of lab processed c41 in the past, and the biggest pain came from dirty negs, so I reckon the cleaner the water used the better, and also as dust free drying as possible.
I'm going for the Fuji/Hunt 5L kit for a start, although there is also a Tetenal 5L kit that a lot of folks use.
I asked a similar question on this forum to yours only a few days ago, and got just the one reply. I'm assuming that not many dev c41, or it's just so easy these days because it's just a case of getting the temp/times spot on and keeping as clean as possible.
Personally I'd like to hear from those that under/over develop, and what that might do, but I may have to dabble there myself.
Let us know how you get on please, and I'll do the same, although it will be early winter when I crank up.
Cheers
Richard

jb7
23-Aug-2010, 00:48
I'm nearly finished my first 5L Fuji Hunt Kit-
Yes, just follow the instructions-

I did have to buy a colour thermometer, a Jobo, I didn't think I'd be able to trust the ones I use for b/w- I have three of those, and at 37 only one matches the Jobo-
still doesn't necessarily mean the Jobo is correct, I suppose-

One extra step I've been using, after the stabilizer, I spray the negs with filtered water before hanging in the cabinet- de-ionizeed water is better, but I don't have any of that- the result is less dust than not using it...

I've been using the chemistry as one shot- apparently it's possible to re-use, but seems like there's potential for inconsistency there-

The negs seem fine to me, though impossible to tell without running control strip comparisons with another process, and I don't do that-

dbla
23-Aug-2010, 06:07
Okay, great... Where are you guys buying your chemicals from exactly? I checked Freestyle but they don't have either of those kits...

-a

Robert Ley
23-Aug-2010, 08:16
After my local lab stopped processing 4x5 C-41 several years ago, I started processing my own in a Jobo CPA-2 with what I consider a great deal of success.

I initially used the Tetenal kits but then went to the Fuji-Hunt chemistry mainly because I used the Fuji-Hunt for my RA-4 processing and liked it very much.

At first I got all my chemistry from Unique (netphotostore) out of NJ. I was having difficulty getting the chemistry from them about a year ago and someone on the forum suggested these folks: http://www.minilab.com/index.asp

They are very easy to deal with and ship the product quickly. I really like the the Fuji-Hunt chemistry. It keeps well and is very easy to mix. The initial purchase of chemistry can be high, but for instance, I am still using three years later my initial purchase of fixer and just finished my first batch of Bleach. I was not aware that it came in a 5lt kit. I get 10lt kits of developer and different quantities of all the other chemistry.

Developing c-41 is pretty straightforward and the jobo controls two of the variables very nicely. I have overdeveloped once due to boneheadedness and the only thing that I noticed was that my printing times increased and my filter pack was different from normal.

Good luck with your c-41 and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Robert

dbla
23-Aug-2010, 08:21
Okay so let me ask this question then...

I need Developer, Fixer, Bleach...and.. what? Replenisher?? Even if I'm not going to reuse the developer? Should I reuse it??

Also what do you guys typically do about drying your film?? Is photo-flo still used?

Is there a good resource for a step by step walk through of this for my first time??

Sorry for the machine gun questions but I'm just trying to get all my details worked out beforehand. :-)

-a

Robert Ley
23-Aug-2010, 09:45
Call the minilab supply store, tech support and ask them what you need to do c-41.
Some of the chemistry has changed. You can go on line and get spec sheets for the fuji-hunt chem that will give you mixing instructions, times and temps. You won't need replenisher as everything is one shot. Reusing the chemistry is foolish as it introduces one more variable into the mix and the chemistry is cheap enough especially when compared to sending your film off to be processed. The last step is a stabilizer which helps to preserve the dyes in the film and acts as a wetting agent as well.

If you have any other questions, PM me your phone number and I can explain more completely.

Robert

gdavis
23-Aug-2010, 13:53
Is this your first time developing film or have you done B+W before? I think starting with B+W is a good idea since there aren't as many details to worry about letting you focus on the basic process. There's less mixing and the temperature isn't as critical (you can work at room temperature). Once you have that down try C-41.

Just do a google search, there's plenty of info out there. There are even youtube videos demonstrating how to do it. I recently tried C-41 for the first time and just followed the directions, not a big deal. But there's more chemicals to mix and you have to maintain a higher temperature, so there's more things to focus on. It's easier if you have the B+W basics down first.

I used the digibase C-41 kit from freestyle. Has all the chemicals and instructions for mixing and recommended times. Seemed to work fine but I'm pretty new to this. I just hang it up to dry.

dbla
23-Aug-2010, 17:45
Haha, I can see how it would seem that way. No, I've been Jobo and Tank developing 4x5 and 120 for years now... Doing both standard timings and Zone System development control... However I've never done C-41 or anything related to darkroom and color... It's been built up in my head by my professors (I'm a BFA senior) as being such a difficult, and toxic undertaking that it's better left to the labs. That would be fine and dandy but I am about to begin my graduating thesis and my idea thus far is to photograph 100+ people, paired with a text element...so figure a 6-sheet average per portrait and we're looking at bookoo bucks when it comes to lab costs (not including printing and what not)...so I figured what the hell, I bought a Jobo a few months back, maybe it's time to make that german beast earn it's keep.

So! I am just trying to make sure that I am getting all my facts straight before I order chemicals and what not... I also only have the Expert Drum for 4x5 and in the past I've only used the large format reel so that's another unknown element I must conquer... But we'll see right? Anyway thanks for the info.

-a

Richard Littlewood
24-Aug-2010, 00:16
Wow. That is still an expensive project. Here in the UK 300 sheets would be knocking on for 900, possibly 800 with a bargained discount.
How do you plan to finally display these pics?

Richard

Larry Gebhardt
24-Aug-2010, 05:55
You need the following. This is exactly what I use, but if I was you I would get it all from http://www.pakor.com/category/C41_Chemistry.cfm since you will be needing a lot. The only thing difficult to find is the bleach. The Trebla bleach works fine.

Developer/Replenisher: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDRL10L.html
Developer Starter: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDS.html
Bleach: http://www.pakor.com/Products/TREBLA_TRELUX_C41RA_BLEACH_2X5L_TREBLA55BL563_444-0741.cfm
Fix: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCFR5G.html
Final Rinse: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSRG.html

dbla
24-Aug-2010, 08:41
Wow. That is still an expensive project. Here in the UK 300 sheets would be knocking on for 900, possibly 800 with a bargained discount.
How do you plan to finally display these pics?

Richard

Framed 20x30 most likely, with the handwritten element displayed 8x10ish below the image. I won't show all 100 at one time... The school's gallery is WHAY to small, but I do want to shoot that volume of subjects to have the diversity required for my project. It'll be expensive, but senior project are usually expensive.

-a

PViapiano
24-Aug-2010, 13:39
You may want to check out the Rollei Digibase C-41 chemistry newly available from Freestyle. Excellent price, capacity, shelf life, etc...

I have not used this yet, but I like that it features a separate bleach and fixer.

There is a lengthy thread on APUG: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/76545-rollei-digibase-c-41-a.html

Richard Littlewood
25-Aug-2010, 00:48
I'll second the Rollei Digibase idea. Some people report an amazing capacity of working solutions. I've some on order to do a bit of a test.

dbla
25-Aug-2010, 20:54
Okay after some research about the Digibase I think I'm going to go that route to begin with... my followup question is, where should I order it in the US? Freestyle only has the 20 Roll kit, and figuring that 1 4x5 sheet = 1 roll then I'd realistically use up that entire kit after two batches in my 3010 Expert drum right? Do they make a larger kit that would last me longer than two batches?? Or should I order five of these suckers?

-a

PViapiano
25-Aug-2010, 22:04
No, 4 sheets equals 1 roll approx....80 square inches.

dbla
26-Aug-2010, 05:38
No, 4 sheets equals 1 roll approx....80 square inches.

So, 4 sheets of 4x5 is equal to a roll? So the 20 Roll kit would accommodate 80 sheets?

Sirius Glass
26-Aug-2010, 18:11
Hey guys,

New user here, I am about to begin a project in C-41 4x5 and would like to do most of the developing at home... I recently bought a barely used Jobo CPA-2 with various drums and reels including the expert drum that accommodates the 4x5 sheets. I guess I am simply looking for some general information about what else I'll need... And some recommendations as to what chemical to use, and drying techniques etc... I appreciate the help in advance!

-a

Do you have a Jobo manual? It would answer many of your questions.

Steve

dbla
26-Aug-2010, 18:14
Do you have a Jobo manual? It would answer many of your questions.

Steve


I think I've had most of my questions answered however the Jobo manual doesn't address selection of chemicals or drying techniques. Thanks though.

al olson
26-Aug-2010, 20:06
You need the following. This is exactly what I use, but if I was you I would get it all from http://www.pakor.com/category/C41_Chemistry.cfm since you will be needing a lot. The only thing difficult to find is the bleach. The Trebla bleach works fine.

Developer/Replenisher: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDRL10L.html
Developer Starter: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDS.html
Bleach: http://www.pakor.com/Products/TREBLA_TRELUX_C41RA_BLEACH_2X5L_TREBLA55BL563_444-0741.cfm
Fix: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCFR5G.html
Final Rinse: http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSRG.html

Since Kodak has juggled their chemistry around, I have only been able to find the Developer/Replenisher, not the plain developer.

I have looked at the Developer/Replenisher and Developer Starter on these same sites and they mention that one must be used with the other. Is this true? Then I will have to buy some starter to go with the replenisher.

Investigation of the Kodak site makes no mention as to how this chemistry is to be mixed. In fact most of the C-41 data notes are 5 or 6 years out of date.

Can anyone tell me if it is necessary to mix the starter with the replenisher for one shot processing and if so, in what proportions?

I am getting to the end of my straight developer and will have to have a go with the replenisher/starter. As soon as I finish the Kodak chemicals I have in stock, I will be moving on to the C-41 kits that Freestyle offers.

The price I am paying for 2.7 liters of bleach is now $47 from Denver Pro Photo. (I know it is cheaper from the New York houses, but they won't ship.) That is a jump from the $29/gallon that I paid previously.

As soon as I finish off the Kodak chemicals I have in house ... no more!

PViapiano
26-Aug-2010, 23:20
So, 4 sheets of 4x5 is equal to a roll? So the 20 Roll kit would accommodate 80 sheets?

Yes, a 20 roll capacity is equal to 80 sheets.

I have no experience with the Rollei kit myself regarding capacity, but that's what is stated in the Freestyle catalog, and that is most likely with reuse, not one-shot. But I would follow that APUG thread and read about all the experiences others are having to determine if the capacity is truly 20 rolls.

Here's the instruction sheet:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/product_pdfs/compard/Compard_C41_Instructions.pdf

gdavis
27-Aug-2010, 13:32
Since Kodak has juggled their chemistry around, I have only been able to find the Developer/Replenisher, not the plain developer.

I have looked at the Developer/Replenisher and Developer Starter on these same sites and they mention that one must be used with the other. Is this true? Then I will have to buy some starter to go with the replenisher.

Investigation of the Kodak site makes no mention as to how this chemistry is to be mixed. In fact most of the C-41 data notes are 5 or 6 years out of date.

Can anyone tell me if it is necessary to mix the starter with the replenisher for one shot processing and if so, in what proportions?

I am getting to the end of my straight developer and will have to have a go with the replenisher/starter. As soon as I finish the Kodak chemicals I have in stock, I will be moving on to the C-41 kits that Freestyle offers.

The price I am paying for 2.7 liters of bleach is now $47 from Denver Pro Photo. (I know it is cheaper from the New York houses, but they won't ship.) That is a jump from the $29/gallon that I paid previously.

As soon as I finish off the Kodak chemicals I have in house ... no more!

Yes, a fresh batch of developer replenisher (not being used to replenish used developer) will need developer starter. Well, you can use it without the starter but as I understand it the activity will be high.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis49/cis49.pdf

al olson
27-Aug-2010, 15:47
Yes, a fresh batch of developer replenisher (not being used to replenish used developer) will need developer starter. Well, you can use it without the starter but as I understand it the activity will be high.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis49/cis49.pdf

Thanks, gdavis, I missed that sheet when I was searching the Kodak site. I have been using the RA Developer Replenisher RT without starter with no difficulty. Maybe I should be reusing my color chemicals and replenishing them, but I prefer to use fresh each time. Besides, I never use them up before they go bad anyway.

Too bad it is not the same starter for the Flexicolor as for the RA-4.

The tables on page 5 seem off. E.g. to prepare 1 liter of developer, they say 860 ml of developer, 126 ml of water and 14 ml of starter. Should not the largest volume be that of the water?

I guess that eliminating the developers that did not require starter makes life simpler for Kodak and besides they can sell more chemicals (e.g. developer starters and bleach starters) for each of their color processes.

Kodak chemistry has become too expensive for amateur user. I will be trying the Rollei kits.

gdavis
27-Aug-2010, 16:01
Thanks, gdavis, I missed that sheet when I was searching the Kodak site. I have been using the RA Developer Replenisher RT without starter with no difficulty. Maybe I should be reusing my color chemicals and replenishing them, but I prefer to use fresh each time. Besides, I never use them up before they go bad anyway.
I didn't find it by searching the kodak site either. I found it linked in another forum discussion that I found through google, so don't feel bad :)


The tables on page 5 seem off. E.g. to prepare 1 liter of developer, they say 860 ml of developer, 126 ml of water and 14 ml of starter. Should not the largest volume be that of the water?
No, the 860ml of developer is the developer solution as mixed according to table 2 (and is mostly water) not the concentrate. Through me off a little at first too, you really gotta read the thing carefully.

tgtaylor
28-Aug-2010, 09:21
From a recent thread on apug, if you are tray processing C-41 then you don't want to use a starter. I process in a Jobo and always use a starter. It's real cheap.

Refer to the Kodak online pub "Preparing Smaller-Than-Package-Size
Amounts of KODAK Processing Chemicals regarding the mixing of smaller amounts of Kodak chemicals; it's CiS-49. Keep in mind when mixing that the directions are to given for mixing 1 liter (for example) of Developer Replenisher RT from which you then mix a working tank solution. So if you want to end up with 1 liter of working tank solution, you do the math and mix 860 mL of replenisher and then add the water and starter to bring to 1L.

All chemistry that is used in a rotary processor is used one shot except the bleach which can be reused once. But you only need 1/2 the quanity of fix and final rinse/stablizer per roll as with the developer.

The Kodak bleach has shot-up in price but if you are serious about continuing to use it then you may still be able to locate a Kodak dealer that still has the 12.5 gallon kits in stock. kodak sent me the following link to their dealers and I found Changs in SCal still had a couple of the 12.5 gallon kits and shipped it to me. I had been using the 1 gallon ready mixed bleach which cost me $29/gallon and with the 12.5 gallon kit my cost dropped close to $20/gallon. I now have bleach running out of my ears!

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/resourceLocators/tradDealers/tradDealerSearch.jhtml?form=listbox&productFamilyCode=11

Even considering the added cost of the chemistry, Kodak is universally recognized as being the best and I will continue using it over other brands.

C-41 is a beautiful process!

Thomas

wang888
29-Aug-2010, 23:09
If you have any other questions, PM me your phone number and I can explain more completely.

tgtaylor
31-Aug-2010, 11:36
Just a quick note on mixing. When you need less than 1 Liter of replenisher to make a working solution, it is necessary to work the math backwards to determine how much replenisher to mix. For example, Sunday I wanted to develope one roll of 120 and only wanted to end-up with 330mL of working tank solution of developer so I worked the math backwards to determine how much replenisher I needed and from that how much of Parts A, B, & C to mix. Fun stuff if you llike math. The negatives came out beautiful - good enough to frame.

shapirophoto
3-Sep-2010, 19:04
Okay I have another question about this... I have mixed up 250ml of working solution... Of all the chemicals to process in my 3010 Tank... so when I am done with the chemicals I am assuming that I save them and reuse right? There's no way this kit will accommodate 80 sheets or even 40 if I am remixing these solutions every go. Any hints or tips??