Ether in the House ... Wet Plate question

[SteveKarr]

Hi everyone,
Well setting up my darkroom in a 2nd bedroom of the new apartment was going well ... Until now.

As I place the sink in it's spot I look around and see many possible spark points. If I pour a plate in the sink can ignition come from the:

1) air conditioner to the lower left ( I live in AZ where 10 months a year you run that sucker)
2) film freezer under the sink to the right
3) at the back right of the room a thru wall fan (can't see it in the pic)

I won't be vacuuming or running the enlarger so no worries there. Ha!

I may pour 10 8x10 plates in a shooting, is that enough ether in the air for problems? I do 50% ether 50% Everclear.

The last place I was doing plates the owner was also a chemist and was super afraid of sparks from brush-type motors igniting the ether.

So how true is this and what can I do in an apartment (no holes in the walls for a vapor hood) to prevent problems.

I am also making a Darkbox I could set up in the front room, but same exact stuff is there too.

Thanks for reading this far,
Steve

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4504/darkroom1.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/darkroom1.jpg/)

[Glenn Thoreson]

Ether is one of the most explosive vapors on the planet. Alcohol vapors are nasty, and it burns with an almost invisible flame. Without a really good fume hood, I would not advise working with that stuff in the house. Even a static discharge can ruin your life. There's also the danger of passing out from the fumes. Find a better way.

[Gem Singer]

Using Ether in a closed environment without adequate ventilation is asking for trouble.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I suspect that, as others have said, the greater annoyance will be inhaling the fumes. I doubt it will be enough to pass out (unless you spill a whole quart of the ether), or likely to burst into flame, but you will probably end up with a splitting headache. Put in some ventilation.

[Joe Smigiel]

Mavidon (http://mavidon.com/index.php/mavidair-air-purifier.html) sells an air purifier that removes VOCs including ether, and converts them to carbon dioxide and water, IIRC. I believe these to be re-branded Biozone air purifiers. I have a Biozone 3000 and it really does seem to get rid of the ether fumes. I'd turn it on several minutes before the session to flood the room with ozone and also start the exhaust fan in the other room. You don't want the ether fumes to accumulate to dangerous levels.

After consulting with a chemist I was told that even an open-flame furnace could be running as long as fumes were minimal...that the furnace would actually burn off minor quantities of ether in the air as fuel. It's when you allow it to accumulate that greatly increases the explosion hazard. Then, open flame, sparks, or even hot surfaces can set off an explosion. Check back with your chemist friend to verify that.

You have a window in there and some sort of ventilating exhaust could direct fumes outside. The best type of fan has non-ferrous blades to prevent sparks and is belt-driven having any motor out of the exhaust path. Fans made for paint spray booths are probably what you want to investigate.

As a disclaimer, I'm neither a chemist or engineer and not suggesting any of this could totally eliminate the hazard, but you could & should check with a ventilation expert and a chemist for their advice on the aspects I've mentioned.

The better alternative is probably to invest in or build a darkbox or acquire a hydroponic "grow tent" (http://www.secretjardin.eu/index/pages/lang-en/id_page-89/) and use it outdoors where the fumes will be highly diluted. Process the plates in the tent or darkbox outside, and wash them inside.

[Struan Gray]

With ether you need to think carefully about storage too. For most homes that'll mean outdoors.

The three main dangers with ether are:

1) fumes can make you dizzy and/or unconscious
2) it is highly flammable, and forms an explosive mixture with
air at many concentrations.
3) an opened bottle can build peroxides, which detonate on light heating

There's a more technical summary here.
http://cartwright.chem.ox.ac.uk/hsci/chemicals/diethyl_ether.html

So you need a well-ventilated, cool, dark storage space. You need to use the ether quickly once opened (and/or have the kit and skills to test for peroxides). You need to work in a ventilated space with no spark or ignition sources (motors and light switches are classics).

That said, it's not a *nasty* chemical like dichromates or mercury compounds, but the risks are real. The annual safety lecture at the lab where I trained used to start with a flask of ether being put into a fridge. It ended, a couple of hours later with the door being opened with a long piece of string, and the whole thing exploding as the switch for the door light set off the ether-air mixture, which builds up even at low temps.

[SteveKarr]

I have to wonder if the ether in mixture with Collodion, EverClear & salts has the same potential as elemental ether.

I am very grateful for all the input so far, seems like a lot of lab experience talking, but am I the first guy to want to pour plates in his home darkroom and not an OSHA approved lab?

Hmmm ...

Steve

[Struan Gray]

The trick is to know the risks and make an informed choice, rather than getting by on beginner's luck. Some of the safety info is more appropriate to industrial or lab use, where the amounts are larger and there is a greater number of uninformed people nearby who can be injured by a mistake. That said, safety in craft-based use of chemicals often lags industrial use because the anecdotes don't pile up so rapidly.

The risk of accidental ignition is very real. Of all the safety lore and old-buffer's yarns I have heard over the years, ether figures highly, partly because it has its dangers, partly because it is (was) used so widely. I personally know and have met people who have had serious accidents with it, which is not true of many quick-acting poisons and other reagents with more alarming MSDSs that I have to deal with.

I wouldn't want to put anyone off trying wetplate, and I personally am the sort who loves to have a go. Just be aware that ether can cause an explosion if someone is smoking in the next room; or if you have in a nearby storage area a bottle of hydrogen peroxide with the top loosened as *it's* safe handling recommends; or if you've been doing alt printing and have a permanganate crystal wedged between the floorboards. Basically, think of ether as the highly destructive dog that cannot be trusted, has to be watched, and does not mix well.

[Nathan Potter]

I think that is a rug on the floor and you live in Phoenix AZ, a very dry climate. So static discharges are likely. Plus there is a good possibility of sparking contacts within the air conditioner. But you also need a reasonable concentration of ether fumes for ignition. Hard to assess the risk with your setup but I would rig an exhaust locally where you use the ether - perhaps a flexible tube that exits through an aperture in the blocked window.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[GSX4]

I use ether in all the salted collodion I make. I would advise buying just the bare minimum you need to mix your collodion and make an iodizer mix. Basically, Ether mixed with the appropiate amount of grain alcohol, cadmium and ammonium salts. This way, the ether is diluted and more importantly, stabilized by the alcohol. When you need to mix up a batch of collodion, you pour your iodizer mix into the collodion and you can start pouring images right away.

I keep my raw ether in the metal containers it shipped in, lid tightly on and then into two ziploc bags, and kept in a rubbermaid container in my basement. I make sure to only pour it in my garage or outside if the temperature is not too hot (avoiding a flash over). All light switches, electric motors, fridges, AC units, furnaces, static, old telephones, Even cell phones (static), and heat sources can induce a flashpoint, just be mindful of your surroudnings, you can never be too careful! Once poured, get the alcohol into it ASAP, plus any iodides. Then it will be relatively stable and not built up peroxides. Even then, modern ether has additives that prevent, or slow down peroxide build up.

Then batten down the hatches again and store iodizer and any left over ether in a metal container, ziploc bags, and rubbermaid container and get it back in the basement or cool ignition free area ASAP. By storing it this way, I have found that the fumes are really well controlled. Remember that ether fumes are heavier than air and will fill a room from floor to ceiling. Once that has happened, and mixed with air, you have a bomb!! I always try to mix my collodion outside, or in the garage with no distractions. Wear gloves, goggles and paint mask if you need to... Especially when mixing cadmium salts into solution!!!!

[goamules]

I've heard these breathless, worrisome concerns about collodion for years. You are not going to "fill the room from floor to ceiling..." as stated above, unless you uncap a few pints in each corner, and take another one and shake it vigorously before pouring it around the room.

No static spark nor electrical motor is going to set off anything in the low concentrations that come off an open bottle when you are mixing a batch of collodion. Which you will do perhaps once or twice a year unless you really get into it. You can mix outside on your porch or whatever.

Once mixed, in a closed space like you describe, I would look to ventilation as mentioned above. I just open the door to my darkroom between every plate, going in and out. The .1 cubic inch of ether fumes get's nicely diluted by the 2000 cubic feet of air in my house.

That's where I think the best defense is; dilution. You don't want to store any straight ether, but if you do, you don't want it in a glass jar that can fall, break, and fill, say, a small storage cabinet with fumes....next to the smoking area.

How many of you have a can of gasoline in your garage or in the mower? Know how dangerous that is? Does your garage ever get hot? But we don't see peoples garages blowing sky high up and down the street all summer. How many people have gas for heating/cooking.....etc, etc.

[Drew Wiley]

Are you sure it's legal to handle ether in your neighborhood? Around here if someone got a slight whiff of it, they'd either call the Fire Marshall or more likely
the FBI. Under ordinary circumstances this would immediately be a red flag for the
presence of a meth lab. I'd want to find out in advance before someone came smashing the door down, and I'd rather it be the FBI instead of the Hells Angels making sure they don't have local competition!

[Ed Richards]

Gasoline is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as ether. Gasoline is easier to contain because it has a lower vapor pressure at the same temperature, and it does not explode at as wide a mix level as ether. But I do not pour gasoline in indoor confined spaces and there have been some exploding garages when people used gasoline to clean things and had a gas water heater in the corner of the garage.

I am surprised that you can still buy ether. I was just listening to an Analog Photography Radio podcast about making emulsions and the hell the guy had just trying to buy laboratory plastic tubing. If you are violating any federal or local regulations, you may be voiding your fire insurance policy as well as being subject to legal action. (Of course, I expect that pouring used developer down the drain probably violates laws in lots of places, it is just that ether is more likely to attract attention.)

[Bill_1856]

Using ether is really stupid!

[cdholden]

I use ether in all the salted collodion I make. I would advise buying just the bare minimum you need to mix your collodion and make an iodizer mix. Basically, Ether mixed with the appropiate amount of grain alcohol, cadmium and ammonium salts. This way, the ether is diluted and more importantly, stabilized by the alcohol. When you need to mix up a batch of collodion, you pour your iodizer mix into the collodion and you can start pouring images right away.


I've recently purchased all my chemicals, but not mixed anything yet. Wouldn't it be just as wise to stabilize the ether with alcohol for safe storage... then have the salts added later?
I like the sound of being able to work without the wait, but I'd probably feel safer knowing that ether in my home is more stable.
Does this sound sane or am I off? This isn't a troll. I'm asking so I can make a better informed decision.
Thanks.
Chris

[eddie]

simple solution is to flow your plate outside or in a bigger room...like the garage. you can then carry the plate to the dark room top sensitize it in silver. this is what i did until i got a darkbox. there is no reason to flow the pate in your dark room.

collodion made with ether is better IMO. you can make collodion with out adding extra ether but i think it is significantly better. it is tougher. that is to say it is not as easily damaged if you rub or knock it with your finger.

[cdholden]

Eddie,
Outside it is! I'll be doing all my wet plate elsewhere. I live in a townhouse and with the neighborhood and family, that kind of thing isn't kosher. Once I can get a darkbox built, and find a system of organization to tote everything in the back of my truck, I'll be working in the field at whatever scenic shot I find. There are several parks in the area to choose from for portrait work.
Come on down and I'll return the favor by introducing you to some of our finer brews.
Chris

[SteveKarr]

Using ether is really stupid!


Hmmm ....

[goamules]

Using ether is really stupid!

Hmmm ....

Exactly Steve. But let's not be....judgmental.....

[Steven Tribe]

Another chemist here with the same warning as all the other chemists. DO NOT USE OR STORE ETHER. It is a fabulous solvent - but there must be other possibilities. I saw the aftermath of an underfloor explosion in my undergraduate lab - heavy ether seeping down the waste pipes blew the whole lab up in the middle of the night. The idea that ether generally has additives to stabilise it is completely false.

[Monty McCutchen]

The fact that Ether HAS exploded somewhere in the past, at some time in the past is a surprise to no one. So has gasoline. So has natural gas and much more frequently I might add and yet we continue to run our lives around both in many locals. To connect what happened to your undergraduate lab to a modern day wet plate artist and the variance in dosages that both are possibly working under, to say nothing of all the potential reasons outside of the inherent characteristics of ether that may have led to said explosions is careless and misleading. To try to avoid those huge gaps in discussion with the broad stroke of I'm a chemist doesn't negate the fact that there are still huge gaps in connecting the two. Yes the ether and the rest of the chemistry of wet plate should be respected, well labeled and above all practiced with care and a high level of organization but no it should not be feared as the next coming of a nuclear meltdown as some would seem to have you believe in this thread.

This thread speaks more to the various poster's world view on whether the sky is falling or not than it does to whether or not ether/wet plate or numerous other photographic practices are safe or not.

And yes Steven is right if you really can't get past this in either your own mind or your working methodology then there are other methods that work in wet plate besides Ether that work very well. Let that be the guide much more than stories of doom that undoubtedly have occurred over the course of time within other fields of work. Having been involved in wet plate for over 8 years now I have yet to hear of a wet plate artist having blown up his house, basement, garage etc. Now that doesn't mean it hasn't happened but believe me if it does the wet plate community will be the first to be discussing the why's, how's and should've, could've and why didn't we's.

Be smart, read, and most of all get to making some plates, it's incredibly fun whether you use ether or not

Monty










Another chemist here with the same warning as all the other chemists. DO NOT USE OR STORE ETHER. It is a fabulous solvent - but there must be other possibilities. I saw the aftermath of an underfloor explosion in my undergraduate lab - heavy ether seeping down the waste pipes blew the whole lab up in the middle of the night. The idea that ether generally has additives to stabilise it is completely false.

[Kerik Kouklis]

^^What Monty said.^^

[Struan Gray]

In a class of twenty undergraduates using a few hundred milliliters of ether for an extraction there is *always* one who leaves their bunsen burner on, no matter how many times you tell them not to. Always. Safety in this case just means walking round the room and reminding people how to do things. On the net, with a stranger, you can't do that, and it can be hard to tread the right line between instilling paranoia and encouraging exploration.

The point is that handling ether like gasoline (or acetone, or xylene, or other common flammable solvents you may have met) will put you at risk. You can throw a lit cigarette into a newly-made pool of gasoline and the biggest risk is that an anti-smoking auror will haul you in front of the Wizamot. Ether will creep along the bench, across the floor, under the door, and detonate off a glow worm out in the garden. Well, maybe not, but almost.

Being timid with chemicals is as dangerous as being gung-ho. But not all chemicals are the same, and ether is one that experience has shown often leads to accidents. I would happily do ether-based wetplate in my home, but it trips my cautionometer, not as badly as, say, mercury-intensification or using HF to etch glass, but badly enough that I would think hard about my equipment, environment and procedures.

SteveKarr is a big boy, and can make his own mind up. I'd just like him to keep his eyebrows and fingers intact.

[Steven Tribe]

The source of my lab ether explosion was found to be an adjoining laboratory with some experienced post-docs - the piping ran under our lab. In my short life with chemistry I met two experienced teachers/professors with ether explosion damage. One who could just see out of one eye and focus at around 20cm with a specially built lens and another with considerable facial scarring. Protection goggles are a must. Ether's weight is main reason it is more dangerous than other organic solvents.

[rguinter]

Question: Which ether is used in the collodion plate process?

I'm not familiar with the collodion plate process. But I am a certified industrial hygienist (CIH) with many years of lab safety experience. The word ether refers to any chemical with the following structure R-C-O-C-R, with the ether bond being the oxygen with a carbon either side.

So which ether is used in the collodion process. i.e., dimethyl ether, diethyl ether, etc. Each has its own specific parameters but the ether bond is always very unstable in the presence of atmospheric oxygen.

Bob G.

[Steven Tribe]

I am sure commercially available "ether" is plain and simple dimethyl ether.
The university department I was in should be considered safety oriented, by the way. They were the first to synthesis vitamin C and did the development work for a certain project in the early 40's with production and differential diffusion of uranium hexafluoride for isotope separation - not without hazards.

[eddie]

careful steven.......

we use diethyl ether.

it requires the correct ether and stabilizers or you get wacky stuff happening....

[billschwab]

I too am with Monty.

[Brook Martin]

Somewhere on this form there is a thread about pyro developers full of dire warnings, crazy claims and casting of aspersions towards any who would use such ungodly dangerous stuff that will certainly harm everyone in the neighborhood. Is pyro nasty stuff? Of course. Can it be handled safely? Yep.

I dont think advanced degrees count as evidence of perfect safety procedure. I was working in a major research and analytical lab when a senior scientist (PHD and everything) dropped a half full, uncapped bottle of sulfuric acid in a stairwell. The whole 4 story building was evacuated for a day. Sometimes smart people do dumb things.

If a photographer chooses to work in wet plate they owe it to them selves and anyone living with them to do their research, put together procedures and follow them. Reading unsubstantiated claims on the internet does not count as research.

I found my biggest problem with ether was the sensitivity I developed to it. My wife could smell it on my breath 2 days after working in my dark box. I decided if I couldnt get it under control, I would give up the process. A proper VOC respirator in the field and better than adequate ventilation in the home darkroom solved the problem.

[Drew Wiley]

Comparing pryo to ether is ludicrous. Pyro isn't explosive, and to my knowledge isn't
used for the manufacture of illegal substances, nor is it an anesthetic. Obviously, it
can be handled intelligently, but does that constitute legally doing so, or being in compliance with insurance, fire codes, etc? I'd want to know first.

[Brook Martin]

Drew, needless to say pyro and ether are different, but irrational fear is irrational fear. Your local codes will be different than mine, we all have to do our own due diligence. No one else can do it for you.
People grow dope with lamps just like the one I print with. All sorts of thing are used for nefarious purposes, so what?
I am more concerned about long term cadmium exposure than ether, which I have under control. but thats my fear. Rather than tell everyone else to not use cadmium compounds, I am finding alternatives for myself.
I know a guy who was very interested in the process, but just could not get past his fear of the chemistry. He should not be doing the process.

[Steven Tribe]

The old fashioned name for these compounds is petroleum ethers. The lab solvent is diethyl ether (sorry i wrote the wrong one) and any bottle/flask/winchester quart(!) labelled just "ether" will contain this.

[SteveKarr]

Wow, Great info from everyone.

*** Can we take this in a different direction for a while? I would like to hear from Actual Wet Plate workers on the handling they use. Do you pour in the garage & dip in the sealed bathroom? Do you use a darkbox only or only on location? At my last house I had to pour on the back porch here in AZ in June, I didn't even get into the house to the silver it was dry or waive to the point of unusable. Real working experience and the methods are my interests.

I (like others hopefully) do try to learn thoroughly the risks, hazards & particulars of any craft to make the best choices. I do try to respect all electrical, chemical & other factual players in my work and life, so this is all about trying to know the facts and let the rest fall out. This thread has been very helpful.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Steve

[Brook Martin]

Before I had good ventilation in my new darkroom I poured 2 8x10 plates and stunk up the house for 4 hours or better. had to use the box in the yard till the problem was solved. I use a plastic bladed 8" inline fan mounted on a piece of plywood covering a basement window opening. I run 6" flexible aluminum duct into the darkroom and clamp the end of the duct work to edge of the table I am working on. If I am within about 18" from the opening of the duct, I can pour 8x10 plates and never smell the ether. I dont know how much air the fan is moving, but it feels kind of like a shop vac. It will actually suck stuff up. If you had a piece of wood over the window, you could easily do this and avoid having to run around with a quickly drying plate. My fan was a lucky find, I would guess it was pretty expensive, but dont know how much.

Working outside in a box is not the worst thing in the world either. I pour sitting at the box, but outside the shroud, I have started wearing a respirator when pouring and when inside the box. I always wear shielded safety glasses in the box. Everything is so close.

Running back and forth sounds like the worst of both worlds, particularly in bone dry heat.

[eddie]

i never pour my collodion inside. i do it in my garage in the winter and outside other times. the garage is fairly large. ventilation on (read open doors and windows). i pour the plate and put it in my silver bath in my dark box in full daylight). i take out the plate and into the holder while inside the dark box, i do this and develop in the DB but nothing else.

prior to the DB i had to run upstairs to my dark room.a PITA but probably good for my health to get so many stairs in.

i am very very careful with my ether and chemicals. i used to pour ether with a shield and gloves, long sleeves etc etc. now i just pour it in. i store it in the basement. no problems.

eddie


Wow, Great info from everyone.

*** Can we take this in a different direction for a while? I would like to hear from Actual Wet Plate workers on the handling they use. Do you pour in the garage & dip in the sealed bathroom? Do you use a darkbox only or only on location? At my last house I had to pour on the back porch here in AZ in June, I didn't even get into the house to the silver it was dry or waive to the point of unusable. Real working experience and the methods are my interests.

I (like others hopefully) do try to learn thoroughly the risks, hazards & particulars of any craft to make the best choices. I do try to respect all electrical, chemical & other factual players in my work and life, so this is all about trying to know the facts and let the rest fall out. This thread has been very helpful.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Steve

[mrladewig]

Ether is starting fluid. One squirt in a carburetor and a stubborn engine will instantly spring to life, if only for a moment, even when gasoline won't do it. It is far more flammable than gasoline, and ignites over a far wider range of concentrations. Think about that.

It merits care, but I agree that the impacts of using briefly it in a closed space will be more along the lines of a stiff headache than explosion. But the potential for the later is definitely there.