8x10 Eastman 2D Full Restoration - Input Please

[Fragomeni]

I restore antique cameras, mostly medium and large format, and it is a passion of mine for numerous reasons including the connection I feel to the finished camera and it makes getting equipment easier for me since I am a student and money is usually tight. Anyway, I am in need of an 8x10 so I've begun restoring a wonderful Eastman 2D (I'm 99% sure thats what it is from comparison to pictures, there are no markings on it). I've posted a thread in the For Sale/ Wanted section looking for parts and now I'm just looking for a little input/ guidance/ ideas for the restoration project.

If anyone has restored one of the cameras I'd love to hear about your experience and what you did to get the camera back to working order. Also, I'd like to hear about any improvements you made. Before any of the annoying naggers on here post some snide comment, yes I've read the other posts about restorations and Eastmans.

Two questions that I have deal with the front standard and its lack of movements and the rail extension. Did any version of these cameras come with a front standard that had swing and tilt? Is there any way to alter the camera so that it has front swing and tilt? As to the rail extension, does the camera require a set of extended or extra long bellows to use the rail extension or were the bellows made a standard size that expand long enough to stretch two rails (I'm re-leathering my bellows so I cant measure them at the moment)?

As usual, thanks to everyone that will inevitably help me out!

[Drew Bedo]

Well . . .I don't know if what I did qualifies as a "resiroation", but 15 years ago I bought a 2d at a camera at the Houston Camera Show. It was in good used condition; tight bellows all functions worked, one crack in the GG. I used it "as-is" for months with Scotch tape on the crack to hold the two pieces together.

I started by replacing the focusing screen. With the standards off the bed rails, I felt the need to care for the wood. I disassembled the camera as far as possible without exceeding my ability to put it all back together. As each metal fitting came off the camera, I taped it to a piece of cardboard in relation to the other parts and made notes on the cardboard to remind me what was what and where it went.

I used Formby's refinishing products and basically cleaned up the wood without stripping it down. Its not a 100% concourse restoration. The metal is not refinished or re-plated. A close look shows Q-Tip swirls in the corners, but what is on the wood inow s the original varnish.

That is my 2D restoration.

There should be a mfg name plate below the front standard. Mine says:
“Kodak View Camera
No, 2-D
Manufactured in The USA for
Eastman Kodak by
Graflex Inc.”

While these cameras were made almost unchanged from the 1920s through the 1950s, the name plate changed five or six times. Check McKeowen’s guide (what I have ) or some other reference to help you date your camera.

Keep us up-dated and poist pix!

[eddie]

all the cameras i have seen have enough bellows for use with the extension rail. if you do not have one you should be sure to make an extension rail for your camera. they really are great. while you are at it make a tripod sliding block as well. this allows you to find the balance point with any lens/extension combination. you can search the forums and find several examples with pictures to aid you.

i sold a kodak 2d whole plate camera several months back in the FS section. it had some front movements you may be able to incorporate in your camera.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=60853&highlight=kodak

be sure to click on the additional photos.

eddie

[Brian Ellis]

Adding front tilt is a very nice improvement to a 2D. I didn't do that myself, Richard Ritter did it for me, but I imagine that if you contacted Richard he'd explain the procedure. It does mess with the originality of the camera of course but 2Ds aren't collectors items and I bought the camera to use, not to admire, so that didn't particularly bother me.

As for those "snide comments" by "annoying naggers" - after you've been here a while and begin seeing the same questions over and over and over again, when a simple search would have provided the necessary information, perhaps you'll understand better than you do now why we sometimes suggest a search rather than repeating an answer that we've already given 30 or 40 times in the past.

[Fragomeni]

Adding front tilt is a very nice improvement to a 2D. I didn't do that myself, Richard Ritter did it for me, but I imagine that if you contacted Richard he'd explain the procedure. It does mess with the originality of the camera of course but 2Ds aren't collectors items and I bought the camera to use, not to admire, so that didn't particularly bother me.

Is Richard on the forum? I'll do a search and see if I can contact him. I like keeping things original but incorporating front movements to these camera will improve its flexibility greatly which I would like. I'm not working on this one to be a museum piece so altering it for the better doesn't bother me. I shoot with everything I restore and everything I keep needs to be usable to my standards. I'll contact Richard :)


As for those "snide comments" by "annoying naggers" - after you've been here a while and begin seeing the same questions over and over and over again, when a simple search would have provided the necessary information, perhaps you'll understand better than you do now why we sometimes suggest a search rather than repeating an answer that we've already given 30 or 40 times in the past.

I'm not new to fourms, I'm just new to this one. I've been an active member of online forums and communities covering all sorts of content since at least 2003 and I have seen my fair share of repeat questions but there is a HUGE difference between directing someone toward a link or offering a short answer to their question and including a link to a relevant conversation as opposed to being outright ignorant and uncouth in behavior simply because theres a computer screen between you and the person you are talking to. The kind of rudeness I've seen (not necessarily directed toward me but directed toward anyone) could very easily lead to a pop in the mouth in real life. Often what happens, this pertains to my own personal experience, is that a question comes up that may have been touched on in passing but never discussed or investigated and people who are eager to flex their internet ego jump to offer the type of snide comments I mentioned because THEY failed to read the question and realize that there in fact was no answer where they thought there was. I completely understand being annoyed at seeing the same question over and over but in a lot of circumstances, but certainly no where near all, questions are valid and the "Snides" as I call them just have to open their mouths in completely unnecessary and unhelpful ways. Very rarely does anyone on a forum outright try to annoy so there is no reason or excuse for behaving in a way that you wouldn't in real life. Sorry for the long triad but I just wanted you to hear where I was coming from. I guess I just hijacked my own thread... :)

[Peter De Smidt]

I have a 2D. Mr. Ritter made me a lens board that adds some lens tilt. By turning the adapter 90*, you could have it do swing. The amount is minimal but useful, and it doesn't require any modification to your camera. You would need to mount your lenses on smaller boards. If you'd like, I can take a picture of it and email it to you. PM me your email address if you'd like me to do that.

[Fragomeni]

Here is where I'm at with restoring the original bellows. The original bellows were a total loss and were crumbling away when touched. I've stripped the original burgundy leather off (what was left of it) and removed the original struts which were falling apart as well. I'm not making new struts and installing them on the original base cloth. Next I'll replace the original leather with a matching burgundy vinyl leather substitute which matches the old leather almost perfectly and retains the leather look but will be much more durable in the long run (talking a hundred years here haha). I'll post more pictures as the project moves along.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/guerillaChesko/Misc/Bellows-restrutting.jpg

[Jim C.]

I would build the bellows from new materials if you intend to use the camera,
the bellows cloth ( liner ) is rubberized thin fabric and the rubber coating dries out
and could potentially crumble, the fabric too can rot, which would cause potential light leaks.

I'm curious about the vinyl leather substitute you intend to use, I'm at the bellows making point
with my both my Kodak 2D's, how thick is the that material ?

[Fragomeni]

I would build the bellows from new materials if you intend to use the camera,
the bellows cloth ( liner ) is rubberized thin fabric and the rubber coating dries out
and could potentially crumble, the fabric too can rot, which would cause potential light leaks.

This is the case to some degree but I've found that using the cloth as a guide for the struts and then covering it properly in new leather or vinyl alleviates most problems with rot in the cloth. Proper application of Pliobond (my glue of choice) and a good leather or vinyl will protect the underlying cloth fairly well as well as return the bellows to complete light tight status and I haven't experienced any problems with further cloth rot yet.


I'm curious about the vinyl leather substitute you intend to use, I'm at the bellows making point
with my both my Kodak 2D's, how thick is the that material ?

I prefer to use leather but a camera this big makes finding a sheet of leather that big quite difficult and expensive and I prefer not to use multiple sheets. On cameras this size a good leather embossed vinyl works very well. You can get this at practically any fabric craft store. I've used vinyl from Jo-Ann Fabrics. They have huge rolls that you can have cut to size and you can get enough for an 8x10 for between $20-$40 depending on the quality and color of the vinyl. Thicknesses vary, some have a cotton back that can be peeled off which leaves you with a thin vinyl sheet thats pretty much perfect and will allow the bellows to return to about the original thickness. The vinyl I used in this case has a slightly thicker back that wasn't removable. I wanted to try this vinyl for a while so this project gave me that chance. Honestly, the vinyl I used this time is thicker then I would prefer to use in the future and I'll probably go back to the vinyl that I can peel the back off of next time. This vinyl works fine and looks very good (color matches original as well) but it doesn't collapse quite as far as it needs to to fold the camera into storage position. This doesn't bother me in this case but if I were backpacking with this camera I'd prefer to be able to fold it down. Now I just need to find a lens for this puppy. I'll probably use this camera predominantly as a portrait camera which these are phenomenal for and I'll be saving up for an 8x10 with full movements for other types that involve backpacking and such.

Overall, the 2D is great for landscape despite what a lot of people will tell you and the lack of front movements is not a major downfall. These cameras were used for landscape very effectively for a long time and all you need to do is learn to make the camera work for you. If you really know how to get the most out of your camera you can achieve pretty much everything you can to with front movements on a camera that is restricted to rear movements like the 2D.

Pictures of new bellows: (you can see the new ground glass in third picture as well)

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/guerillaChesko/Misc/bellows-closed.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/guerillaChesko/Misc/bellows-open-and-up.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/guerillaChesko/Misc/bellows-and-glass.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/guerillaChesko/Misc/bellows-open-tripod.jpg

[Peter De Smidt]

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae37/peterdesmidt/2d.jpg
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae37/peterdesmidt/2d2.jpg

[Fragomeni]

Now thats very interesting. How much did it cost to have that made?

[BarryS]

Francesco-- Your camera isn't an Eastman 2D. There are several distinctive features that don't match the Eastman # 2D, Eastman View #2 or View #1. Your camera only has a single slot on the sides of the base rail--the 2D has three slots (front standard, rear standard, and tripod block), as does the View#2. The View #1 has two slots. There's also a taper on the front standard of your camera, which the #1, #2, and #2D all lack. Examination of the hardware reveals a lot of differences. So what do you have? I'm not sure, there were a lot of similar American field cameras from the same period. You might be able to find a match here. (http://www.piercevaubel.com/cam/index.htm)

[Peter De Smidt]

I don't remember the exact cost, as it was made 4-5 years ago, but it was reasonable. Mr. Ritter is a member on this site, and so maybe he'll chime in with what he'd charge today.

[Fragomeni]

Francesco-- Your camera isn't an Eastman 2D. There are several distinctive features that don't match the Eastman # 2D, Eastman View #2 or View #1. Your camera only has a single slot on the sides of the base rail--the 2D has three slots (front standard, rear standard, and tripod block), as does the View#2. The View #1 has two slots. There's also a taper on the front standard of your camera, which the #1, #2, and #2D all lack. Examination of the hardware reveals a lot of differences. So what do you have? I'm not sure, there were a lot of similar American field cameras from the same period. You might be able to find a match here.

Thats exactly what I've come to realize. As a matter of fact I was just discussing this with Simon Benton in a private message and we were trying to figure out what the camera is. I've compared it to a number of pictures labeled 2D and many of them match pretty solidly, or so I thought. Now I'm very curious as to waht I have.

[Jim C.]

I think it's a Conley New View Model BW (http://www.piercevaubel.com/cam/misc/connew.htm) the hardware matches on the left side views you posted.

[Louis Pacilla]

Another possibility--- R.O.C. Empire State .

Strike that I believe Jim C is spot on.

[Fragomeni]

Yep, Jim C was spot on (thanks Jim C.!). Now I can at least look for parts to the right camera!

[Jim C.]

Yep, Jim C was spot on (thanks Jim C.!). Now I can at least look for parts to the right camera!

It always helps in getting the right parts, 2D parts would look odd on the Conley
besides it not fitting at all :)

The Pierce Vaubel site helped me a lot in identifying my 2D's although I do wish
that there are photos of variations by the years.

[cdholden]

Jim,
I think Drew Bedo stated in another recent thread that McKeown's price guide showed a few different labels with years of production for each.
Chris

[sully75]

Peter that front tilt is pretty slick and not too hard to pull off. I might try that on my Eastman

[Fragomeni]

Peter that front tilt is pretty slick and not too hard to pull off. I might try that on my Eastman

It is pretty awesome! I'd love to do it on the Conley but the asking price for fabricating it is about 3-4 times what I paid for the whole camera. It wouldn't be that difficult to pull off if you can find the right parts, although I doubt it'll be as beautiful as Richard's fabrication. I went to Home Depot yesterday hoping to find some parts that would work but unfortunately they didnt have any. I figured I could use L-brackets or something but everything was too large. I'll have to look for a place that sells smaller hardware I guess. If anyone has any ideas on how to build this out please share. Either way, I might just leave the Conley alone. Its a portrait camera after all and I'm trying to save up for an 8x10 field camera with full movements anyway. Either way, ideas on how to fabricate?

[Peter De Smidt]

Francesco, did you find out how much Richard would charge currently?

For some bits, check out: http://www.smallparts.com/

[Peter De Smidt]

If you're experienced, working with front tilt on a 2D, or similar, camera isn't that hard:

1. Frame your picture.
2. Plumb the camera back.
3. Tilt the camera down until you get the front tilt you need.
4. Re-plumb the back.
5. Use front rise to get the framing you want.

The downside to this is that until you're proficient, figuring out the exact front tilt takes some iterations, and re-doing it the way I've outlined takes longer than using a true front tilt mechanism, since every time you re-tilt, you have to plumb the back and use front rise. It's not that hard, though, and back tilt is enough for many images.

[sully75]

I haven't thought too much about it, but looks like L-bracket cut on an angle with a hole drilled into it, then some sort of washer arrangement to make it move free but be able to tighten it down.

[Fragomeni]

Francesco, did you find out how much Richard would charge currently?

Yes, he quoted me $345 which is beyond too steep for me.


If you're experienced, working with front tilt on a 2D, or similar, camera isn't that hard:

1. Frame your picture.
2. Plumb the camera back.
3. Tilt the camera down until you get the front tilt you need.
4. Re-plumb the back.
5. Use front rise to get the framing you want.

The downside to this is that until you're proficient, figuring out the exact front tilt takes some iterations, and re-doing it the way I've outlined takes longer than using a true front tilt mechanism, since every time you re-tilt, you have to plumb the back and use front rise. It's not that hard, though, and back tilt is enough for many images.

I've seen this done and with a little patience I think I could work fairly well with this strategy but it would just be much more convenient to not have to go through this process. Whether I find a way to install front tilt on my Conley or not I'm saving up for a field camera with full movements so I'll be using the Conley in exactly the manner you described until I get my hands on that filed camera. (Take a look at my other thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=65925) if you'd like to pitch in your input and help me find the ideal field camera for my purposes).


I haven't thought too much about it, but looks like L-bracket cut on an angle with a hole drilled into it, then some sort of washer arrangement to make it move free but be able to tighten it down.

Yea, it doesn't look overly complicated. I'd just love to find a local place where I can pick up some decent looking/working parts and make it happen.

[ComicDom1]

I recently won and auction on E bay for a Century No. 2 which from what I can tell was sold between 1907 and 1915. The camera was sold as the Eastman View Camera No. 2 from 1916-1923. After 1923 the Camera became the Kodak 2D. From the information I have found on the web, George Eastman acquired controlling share of the company around 1903 or 1904.

I guess I am lucky so far because it appears all the hardware is in working order. Mine came with the rail extension that attaches to the rear of the tripod block. The picture I found on the web shows only 2 clips holding in the ground glass. I have three on mine and it looks like I am missing the fourth so I guess someone added 2 extra at one point. I might be able to make that from some flat brass stock. I believe someone replaced the ground glass with a regular window glass that is etched on both sides. A friend of mine gave me a free 8 x 10 replacement today but the clipped corners are rough but the glass is usable. I will use it while I source a good replacement.

My bellows is the original but still seems to be somewhat usable. Of course it has some pin holes that I can probably patch but I fear it will possibly be more work than its worth in the long run. I have already sourced a couple of replacements.

My handle is still intact, but the smooth leather coating has cracked off of it and to replace it I have what looks like metal rivets on top holding on two brass pieces that holds the handle. I took loose my bellows and the rivets are split on the bottom and would have to be replaced. I have thought about just using a belt type handle just to keep from having to remove the brackets and replace the rivets.

There are a few scratches on the wood but nothing major. Of course the worse part is the ground glass film holder back. The camera is a combination of Cherry wood and Mahogany and I believe its all stained in Cherry. The brass all needs to be polished.

Other than what I have mentioned above, I working on getting an adapter board made so I can take my lens boards from my Zone VI Camera and just pop them in the adapter instead of dismounting them and changing the lens boards. That way I can use them on my Zone VI as well as the Century No 2. I already had an adapter board made for my Calumet SC2 and the system seems to work out well.

I have thought about disassembling the camera completely and taking all the hardware and having it polished by someone else and Re-Lacquered but I think that might be expensive to have done. So far I am working with Liquid Brasso and elbow grease. The brass seems to be shinning up well. I tried using a Dremel Tool to polish some of the brass tonight but it does not seem to work as well as a plain rag and elbow grease. I figure once I get it cleaned up, I will put some wax on the Brass and just polish it occasionally.

I try to keep reminding myself I bought this to get my feet wet and see if I was going to like shooting an 8x10. I really did not mean for it to get to be a restoration project. I just wanted a cheap functional camera to start out with before looking to buy a better model. After having it in my hands and giving things some thought, common sense told me that any camera I purchased used especially on E-bay can have potential problems. Certainly pin holes in Bellows is a common issue. Since I do not have that much in it so far, I figure a little effort and a few repairs are worthwhile as long as they are not that expensive.

From what I have observed, the Kodak 2D model appears to be more common than the Century No 2. model the 2D was patterned after. It makes me wonder if its worth slightly more than the Kodak labeled camera. I also am wondering if parts like the back can be swapped between the different models.

I am thankful that when I purchased my lenses for use with my Cambo SC2 and Zone VI camera that I paid attention to the Image Circles.

Jason

[IanG]

Francesco, while Peter's front tilt conversion is very nice it would be very easy and considerably cheaper to make something much simpler but just as effective if you did away with the additional interchangeable lens board.

Richard Ritter has done a great job but it's more complex to make, when you add up the time making it and some of the brass parts, the bellows etc, staining, painting, varnishing or french polishing then the price becomes more realistic.

However as you can make the bellows yourself if your prepared to dedicate the board to just one lens it's just a case of cutting two bits of board and making/buying the brass fittings.

I've been planning to do this for my second 10x8 Agfa Ansco, but there's been no urgency as my second has full front tilt & swing. There's enough rear tilt on the second for most of my WA work.

It's also worth asking local cabinet makers/carpenters how much they'd charge for making parts, I had a front standard made for a camera over Easter, I ran into their minimum hourly charge :D it would have been as cheap to have had other bits made as well. They gave me the spare profile they'd cut as well.

Ian

[Fragomeni]

Ian, thanks for the thoughts. I agree that Peter's work is very nice but for my purposes it just didn't make sense to pay 4x what I paid for the camera for a lens board. Its a shame because I really enjoy his work.

Anyway, the project has taken somewhat of a back seat. I got my Deardorff not too long ago and I've been working on getting that in prime condition for shooting. As far as the camera I was looking for a way to build front tilt and swing into, it ended up being a Conley. It fooled me and because it was stripped of all marking I didn't even think of it. I'll probably redo the bellows once more with better material. The ones I made ended up being slightly too think so it doesnt fold up all the way. I received an extension rail for it as well so I'd really like to get a chance to use it!