Efke/Adox 25 in PMK or Rollo Pyro

[Shen45]

Is anyone using the above combination, a friend here in Australia is wanting to try the same. I have the PMK and he has the Rollo Pyro.

A rough starting time and your ISO would be a help -- and yes I will be thoroughly testing the film myself :) eventually.

Steve

[Drew Wiley]

I frequently develop the 120 and 35mm version of this in manual Jobo tanks (not
rotary). ASA 25, N= 6 min @ 20C. Prerinse / PMK std dilution / very weak stop bath / 5 min fix TF4 / 3 min alkaline afterbath

[Michael Kadillak]

Efke / Adox CHS 25 is an old school emulsion that responds optimally to Rodinal 1:50, D76, Xtol, HC110 or any other equal. I have not found that any pyro (Rollo, PMK, Pyrocat, ABC or Wemberleys) offers anything advantageous in the final result particularly in roll film. As a result I suggest you keep it simple. Mix your own.

The best Efke/Adox 25 I have ever seen bar none is the B&W positive located here in Denver called DR5. What I have seen does not seem possible - but I have to their office and spoke to Dave Wood and have seen the results for myself. They say you can scan this stuff and it is amazing.

[Dave Aharonian]

I've been using Efke 25 in both 4x5 and 5x7, processed in a Jobo expert drum on a Beseler motor base. I rate it @ ISO 16 and give it about 5.5 minutes @ 70 degrees F. Works well for me!

[Shen45]

Thanks guys I will try some this weekend. Then do my own testing.

Steve

[IanG]

Efke / Adox CHS 25 is an old school emulsion that responds optimally to Rodinal 1:50, D76, Xtol, HC110 or any other equal. I have not found that any pyro (Rollo, PMK, Pyrocat, ABC or Wemberleys) offers anything advantageous in the final result particularly in roll film. As a result I suggest you keep it simple. Mix your own.

The best Efke/Adox 25 I have ever seen bar none is the B&W positive located here in Denver called DR5. What I have seen does not seem possible - but I have to their office and spoke to Dave Wood and have seen the results for myself. They say you can scan this stuff and it is amazing.


Actually quite wrong Michael

The EKKE/Adox emulsions were the very first of today's modern thin layer emulsions and in the 1950's way ahead of their competitors in terms of fine grain & sharpness. The only reason some seem to think old school is the poor hardening.

The old school thick emulsions died out when Forte closed with the demise of Fortepan 200 & 400 essentially based on the pre WWII versions of Super XX and Tri-X both made at the plant when it was owned by Kodak.

Adox/Efke emulsions do respond well to developers like Rodinal, and also Pyrocat, but then so do modern tabular grain films like Tmax & Delta 100 or 400.

Pyrocat HD gives excellent edge sharpness with the EFKE films because the poorer hardening allows greater tanning to take place. Other Pyro developers should be similar.

Ian

[Jay DeFehr]

Ian,

This is the first time I've heard those Forte films were related to those Kodak films. Very interesting. I have a freezer full of that Forte stuff in 3x4. Thanks for the history lesson! To be fair to Michael, differences between developers can be subtle, and get even less obvious as format increases. LF forgives so much in the way of equipment, materials and technique, which is one of its many charms.

[IanG]

Jay, I'm not saying they are related just that the EFKE films, originally made by Schleussner and sold under their Adox brand name, were the first of the thin layer modern films.

I thought I had some boxes of 10x8 CHS 25, but discovered it's 3 boxes of Fortepan 200, the labelling is rather small :D

Ian

[Jay DeFehr]

an,

I was referring to this line:


The old school thick emulsions died out when Forte closed with the demise of Fortepan 200 & 400 essentially based on the pre WWII versions of Super XX and Tri-X both made at the plant when it was owned by Kodak.

I think you're way ahead with the F200 over the CHS 25!

[Darren H]

I'll agree with Michael K about using Efke 25 with the dr5 process. It produces a very nice chrome. They say it is better for scanning. I cannot verify that but I am very pleased with the results. Shipping from down under might be an issue but I think trying it would be worth your time.

You can see some of my Efke images in the Landscape thread in the image sharing section and there is an Efke 25 group on Flickr too

[IanG]

an,

I was referring to this line:

I think you're way ahead with the F200 over the CHS 25!

My mistake, whoops :D

Both Super XX and Tri-X were released at the end of the 1930's, Siper XX alongside Pan-X and Plus-X in 1938 and Tri-X a year later, they were coated at all 4 of Kodak's major plants Rochester, Harrow, Canada & Hungary. Somewhere I have the relevant pages scanned from the1940 Kodak, London, Professional catalogue (released 1939), they show the sizes available.

The Kodak plant in Hungary was set up by Kodak UK, in 1922, during the war Kodak Germany continued trading even exporting (to the US as well) via Kodak subsidiaries in neutral countries. The Hungarian plant was under German control and when Hungary became communist after the war was nationalised.

I think I prefer EFKE 25 to Fortepan 200, but I'll not complain it's an excellent film in LF, but to grainy in 120 or 35mm.

Ian

[Jay DeFehr]

Ian,

Interesting bit of history; thanks for sharing! I too find Forte 200 a little grainy in smaller formats, but that seems to go away as early as 3x4 for me, and I really appreciate the extra speed. Since you have quite a bit of the stuff, this might interest you:

http://gsd-10.blogspot.com/2010/07/gsd-10-semi-stand-and-finding-preferred.html

[Michael Kadillak]

I have used many forms of pyro and quite honestly from my perspective I have placed prints from Efke 25 negs developed in ABC, Pyrocat and Wemberleys W2D2 next to prints from negatives developed in Xtol, D76 and diluted Rodinal and do not see the advantage of the pyro as I do with other emulsions. For me pyro is kind of a PITA and worthy of the extra time and effort as long as it is substantiated in the final result.

Take out the Rodinal bottle, pour out a few ounces for a large developing tray and make sure that you leave time between agitations and it does remarkably well with this film. It is about as easy as it can be and the Rodinal can last on the shelf for a gizillion years and still do its thing. I am into easy when it makes sense and for this film this makes sense. To each their own....

[Jay DeFehr]

Pyro is very easy for me.

[IanG]

Having used Rodinal with EFKE PL25 I have to agree it's a great combination.

I find Pyrocat HD quite like Rodinal in many ways, but slightly better, it does seem to give marginally better edge sharpness with the EFKE film and I can see that when comparing prints but it's possible it's less pronounce than with other films.

Ian

[Michael Kadillak]

Pyro is very easy for me.

I agree it is easy - after you put on your breathing safety mask and go outdoors and get it mixed.

[Drew Wiley]

I'd have to say that for the way I personally print there is a distinct advantage to pyro, especially for controlling extreme highlights while retaining the deep shadow gradation this film is so good at. All the more important with roll film where subjects of different contrast range might have to be developed together on the same roll. But
this subject is getting me awfully tempted to print some of my recent shots this wkend
instead of painting the porch like I'm supposed to do!

[Michael Kadillak]

Having used Rodinal with EFKE PL25 I have to agree it's a great combination.

I find Pyrocat HD quite like Rodinal in many ways, but slightly better, it does seem to give marginally better edge sharpness with the EFKE film and I can see that when comparing prints but it's possible it's less pronounce than with other films.

Ian

I agree with you Ian.

I find that I can get away with very prolonged periods of no agitation to attenuate the edge effects (quasi semi stand development in a tray) with Rodinal without the risks of mottling that can rear their ugly head with Pyrocat. That said I find pyrocat is great with other films and I use it regularly. I mix a gallon of it at a time.

[Jay DeFehr]

I agree it is easy - after you put on your breathing safety mask and go outdoors and get it mixed.


A liter of 510-Pyro will develop up to 1000 8x10 sheets of film, so I don't need to mix very often, but I'm not afraid of pyro.

Drew,

I'm not convinced staining developers are best for compensating development. After all, stain adds contrast in the highlights; just the opposite of compensation. If you're printing on VC papers, then the compensating effect is restored because the stain acts as a low contrast filter, but it comes with increased contrast in the shadows, where there is little or no stain. Just something to chew on.

[Drew Wiley]

Strictly speaking, PYRO isn't a compensating developer. But with respect to this specific question, I find it advantageous for both graded and VC enlargement papers.
Contact printers to long-scale media like carbon, PT/Pd or perhaps Azo have good reason for differing prefernces. I don't think there's much sense in starting the "pyro
wars" all over again. In my case, based on many many negs and prints, it's a settled
question from the practical standpoint. The proof is in the pudding, and that's all I care
about. Yes, there are many other variables to consider, including differences in light sources, and many other options. And I've personally worked with a lot of different
film developers. No need for me to make converts. It works for me.

[Drew Wiley]

Jay - to be a little more specific in regard to your observation, my preferred neg for
outdoor landscape subjects (vs studio portraits etc) is to use a film with a long steep
toe (as long a straight line as possible). In other words, good contrast and separation
well into the shadows. With Efke 25 one can easily get down into Zone 0 without
blocking the shadows. Well, one might observe, why not just reduce development and
increase exposure, ala traditional Zone system? Well, if you do this, the midtone gradation and highlight sparkle will suffer. Pyro allows me to keep my cake and eat it too, especially in those extremely luminous scenes on the beach, or in the mtns with
brilliant thunderheads behind ominous peaks. Have some 6x7 shots with R25 taken from
slightly below the summit of Haleakala in Maui with extremely brilliant backlit clouds,
but deep deep black lava detail in the foreground. Any other film/dev combo would
have had a very tough time with that degree of contrast without resorting to minus dev. And the high winds precluded me from using a long-scale LF film. A scene like this
needs an exceptional paper to print on too, but the end result is quite a testimonial for the adaptability of Efke 25 and PMK pyro.

[Jay DeFehr]

I didn't mean to offend you, Drew. I'm a long time pyro user, too. I was just commenting on compensating development as it relates to stain. I thought you might be interested. I'm not trying to convert you one way or the other. I use both staining and non-staining developers, and each have their advantages. By far, the most important thing for me, is to have fun and enjoy the process, and which developer I, or anyone else uses is way down on the list of things important to me. Sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way, and I hope you don't take it too seriously.

[Drew Wiley]

No - you didn't rub me wrong at all, Jay. Right now I probably have at least a dozen
different film developers in the lab, with a distinct use for each of them. It's just that
PMK and R25 are a combination which has allowed me to do things with medium format which were almost impossible previously.

[Jay DeFehr]

No - you didn't rub me wrong at all, Jay. Right now I probably have at least a dozen
different film developers in the lab, with a distinct use for each of them. It's just that
PMK and R25 are a combination which has allowed me to do things with medium format which were almost impossible previously.


Only a dozen! :D

I couldn't begin to count the developers in my DR. When I stand back and look at it, it looks like madness. I have to remind myself it's about having fun, and not about production (for me). I've been meaning to try some ISO 25 film for use with my Verito; the wide aperture and Studio shutter make for generous exposures.

Thanks for being a good sport, Drew.

[sanking]

No - you didn't rub me wrong at all, Jay. Right now I probably have at least a dozen
different film developers in the lab, with a distinct use for each of them. It's just that
PMK and R25 are a combination which has allowed me to do things with medium format which were almost impossible previously.

I have quite a bit of experience with Efke 25 in medium format in Pyrocat-HD. It is certainly capable of very great sharpness and fine grain, but the curl makes it very difficult to work with in scanning, especially if I fluid mount which I prefer to do for the best scan possible.

That said, I find that Fuji Acros is a tad bit sharper than Efke 25, and the grain is every bit as fine. And since Acros dries flat I find it much easier to work with in scanning. And as the market would have it, one can buy Fuji Acros in the US for less than Efke 25, so in addition to better than Efke (my opinion, of courese), Acros is also less expensive.

Sandy

[Drew Wiley]

Even though R25 and ACROS are both orthopan films, they have a different look. I use
them both, but R25 looks distinctly sharper enlarged and will dig down deeper into the
shadows. You are scanning, Sandy, so have somewhat different parameters. In terms of quality control, the ACROS is distinctly a little better, with less zits and so forth in the emulsion, and less curl.