New to LF photography ~ any help appreciated!

[jodiechapman]

Hi there,

I am a photographer who has just taken the plunge and bought myself a large format camera from the 1890s. The camera is very old and therefore does not come with a manual :) I am pretty sure it is a 4x5 camera. It comes with an amazing lens that stops down to 5.6 - the guy I bought it from (trustworthy dealer) said it is an incredible lens that is worth hundreds of pounds in itself. The camera also comes with an original oak tripod.

I am totally new to this field of photography. I am a pro photographer who does mainly weddings and portraits. All my pro work is digital, but I use a 1950s Rolleiflex, Nikon f90X, polaroid sx-70 etc for personal work, so am aware of the workings of a camera. LF is totally new to me however.

I am looking to get myself booked on a course in London so that I can learn it a little better, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips/advice out there on what else I can do to get to know this craft? I'm well aware it will be a steep learning curve, but that makes it all the more exciting for me and I am well up for the challenge.

Thanks so much everyone.

Going to try and post a few images of the camera to see if that helps...

[Mark Woods]

Welcome aboard!

I suggest you go to the home page and read all of the articles and use the links QT has set up for us. Great resources with easy access.

[aduncanson]

You will need to confirm that is is a 4x5 camera. The easiest way might be to find a 4x5 ("5x4" in England) film holder ("double dark slide" in England) and see how it fits. I would try to borrow one, or do this at a shop rather than buy the film holder, because I suspect that it might not be the right thing for your camera. At that age, it might well be a plate camera.

Did the camera come with any film or plate holders? Please post photos of any holders, or certainly of the back of the camera.

There are other folks on this forum who will be able to advise you on what you can do if it is a plate camera.

Good Luck - Alan

[Sirius Glass]

Welcome to LF photography from a new comer.

Steve

[jodiechapman]

Thanks so much for your responses.

I've now been informed that the camera is either 5x7 or 8x5, what used to be called half plate. I was then told I would get a more accurate measurement if I measured the back of the camera, which comes out at 6.5 x 4.7 inches. Does that sound right? The dealer also mentioned another option is to mount a universal back on the camera and use it at 5x4, which will allow me to use "normal DD slides and cut film". Sound right?

I've attached a few more images, showing the reverse of the camera, close-up of the writing on the camera and the film holder provided.

The writing on the lens reads: "No 54565 Ross & (Ectra Rapid) London, 8x5 Universal Symmetrical" and it ranges from f/5.6 through to f/64. I've been told it's an excellent lens. The camera doesn't come with a proper shutter, so I've been told that as well as selecting f-stop, I have to control the exposure by removing the lens cap and replacing it after a certain time.

Like I said, I am totally new to this field of photography. I understand exposure etc, but I don't even know what film/sheet film etc I would use to take pictures with this. Any help anyone can give me or point me in the direction of would be very gratefully received!!! Sorry if I sound like a hopeless novice ~ I really want to learn all about this but am clueless as to where to start.

Once again, thank you so much!

[aduncanson]

It looks to me like it might be a half plate camera.

You may want to contact these folks, http://www.silverprint.co.uk/. I read on photo.net that they had half plate supplies in 2003.

It is a beauty (and it would be a shame to butcher it attaching some 4x5 back), but I would say that between the difficulties finding film and film holders, and the lack of a shutter, that there are far easier ways to pick up the basics of large format photography - if that is your immediate objective.

Best of luck - Alan

[Tim Meisburger]

Does the entire back come off so you can rotate the ground glass from landscape to portrait orientation? If so, you should be able to modify the camera relatively easily to accept to accept 5x7 film holders. If you can find an old wooden 5x7 back it would be relatively easy to either cut it down or glue it up so that it could be fitted in place of the plate back. Then you could use standard film and film holder, and could always put the plate back on if you needed it.

Good luck!

[jodiechapman]

@aduncanson Thanks so much for your response. Have rung Silverprint and am going in to see them next week!

@Tim Meisburger Thanks so much. No, the back doesn't come off completely. It has hinges on the top so it can fold up, but I can't change it to portrait aspect.

I've been told by others about adapting it to standard 4x5, but I'm a bit of a purist and would love to keep the camera as true to its origins as possible! Probably sounds a bit nutty I know.

Just to confirm, I am not interested in doing landscapes, only the odd people shot. Can I use double dark slides that are already half plate sized?

Also, the camera doesn't come with a shutter. Can I get away with just removing the lens cap and replacing it after a period of time? I'm not interested in attaining any kind of perfection - in fact, the imperfections and unpredictability is exactly why I love a lot of photography, such as pinhole, Holga etc.

With the camera being half plate as it is at present, will this mean I will have a lot of difficulty getting film to fit? Anybody have any recommendations for where I can find film?

Many thanks in advance

[Tim Meisburger]

Jodie, the standard double darks will not fit. You have one plate holder, and you can use that for plates, or adapt it to shoot film or paper. You can probably find film pre-cut in that size, or you can cut it down yourself.

Sure you can take pictures by removing and replacing the cap. Remember though that older emulsions were quite slow, so a normal exposure might be one or several seconds. It might be difficult to take a portrait with modern 100 asa film except in very low light (although people do do it all the time, usually using a card or darkslide to cover the front of the lens instead of the cap because it can be removed and replaced faster than a cap). It helps to buy a slow film like Adox CHS 25 Art. Slow speeds are usually not a problem for landscape photographers, but for portraits you will ave to make sure your subjects stay very still (unless you are going for the blurred effect).

You will definitely have more fun than a holga...

Cheers, Tim

[jodiechapman]

Tim, that's brilliant help. Once again, thanks so much. I've learnt so much just from reading the responses and several of the articles on the site. My problem is that the camera is very, very old, which I love, but means a lot of the articles are geared towards newer equipment.

So does that mean I have a plate camera? ie At present, I can't shoot film/paper with it unless I adapt it? If I were to adapt it, is it easy to do myself?

[Tim Meisburger]

Before there was film, and for a long time after, emulsion was coated onto pieces of glass called plates. Originally plates were coated by the photographer on the spot, and this process is called "wet plate". Later a process, called "dry plate" was developed that allowed plates to be pre-coated in a factory. Dry plate is essentially the same as film, except the emulsion is on glass instead of plastic.

Glass plates fell out of fashion in the fifties, as film was so much more practical, and dry plate is very hard to find (and expensive) these days, but wet plate is enjoying a resurgence as an alternative process. I think your camera was made for dry plate, and am not sure if it would have to be modified to use wet plate, as I really know nothing about that (but there are a lot of people on the forum that shoot wet plate).

Because film is much thinner than a glass plate, it will not fit correctly in the holder without some sort of adapter. For smaller plates the adapter is merely a metal sleeve the size and thickness of a plate that holds a sheet of film. No modification is required. I assume they are available, but again know little about them. With one of those, a changing bag to load your film, and some film, you would be ready to go. But you might want to look into wet plate, as that might fit your aesthetic. Try googling Sally Mann and wet plate for more info on that process (I think there are some videos on YouTube)..

Best, Tim

[jodiechapman]

Hi Tim,

Thanks so much for your reply. I love Sally Mann ~ she's one of my fave photographers and I would love to get into the wet plate/collodion process once I am more experienced in LF photography.

I've been told to get some 3mm glass cut in order to keep the film flat inside the holder, so will look at doing that and maybe then I'll be a little closer.

Thanks again.

[Scott Davis]

From looking at your pictures of the camera, it is indeed a plate camera, and your one holder is made for dry plates (thus the springs in the middle of the back, meant to insure image plane flatness). You can probably use this for wet-plate if you are so inclined, but bear in mind that the wet plate chemistry will corrode the insides of the holder, and it is also quite possible that there is not enough clearance between the plate surface and the darkslide, which would lead to smeared and streaked plates.

Your best bet is to cut down some sheet film and use glass plates as backing (a little bit of blueberry jam or corn syrup on the glass plate surface is useful to keep the film from sliding off or bowing out of the plane of focus during use). It is probably a half-plate camera, which would be 4.75" x 6.5" or thereabouts (the actual dimensions of half plate seems to have wandered around a bit over time). As noted, modern emulsions will be too fast to use well with this setup as is, but there are two solutions to the exposure control problem - you can get either a Packard shutter to mount in front or behind the lens, or a Thornton-Pickard roller-blind shutter which you can mount in front of the lens. I don't know how common each of them are on your side of the pond- here the Packards are very common, and the Thornton-Pickards are unusual. The Thornton-Pickard will give you a range of built-in speeds, whereas the Packard will be just an eyeball-type exposure, with a possible "instant" speed of around 1/30th of a second to maybe 1/10th, depending on the size (the bigger the shutter, the slower the 'instant' setting). The Packard is triggered with a pneumatic squeeze-bulb and air hose, the Thornton is triggered manually via a button on the shutter housing.

Also, upon closer examination of the photos of your camera, there are some little brass tabs on the top of the rear standard that can be opened, allowing you to remove the back and switch it from horizontal to vertical orientation.

[jodiechapman]

Scott ~ After your last comment, I got the camera out and had a look, and the back does indeed come off allowing me to change it to portrait. Fantastic! I've been a bit reluctant to play with it too much in case of damaging it accidentally. You guys are being my manual :)

So does that mean I should be able to change the back quite easily?

I would love to be able to not have to use an added shutter and just control the amount of light by removing/replacing the lens cap. Do you think this would be too slow? If I used as slow a film speed as possible (can you get <100 ASA?), would this give me time to remove/replace the lens cap? Also, I love shallow D.O.F, so would love to shoot it at 5.6 if possible, but if I did this, would this then mean I would have to have a super fast shutter speed in order to compensate for the wide aperture?

Also, you mention cutting film down to size. Without sounding like a total idiot, wouldn't I have to do this in total darkness?

Thanks so much!

[Clive Gray]

Hello Jodie

May we ask which dealer sold you the camera?

[Andrew Plume]

hy Jodie

you're on here too with that neat little Ross lens!

hopefully the really informative guys on this forum (and they're indeed considerable) aren't too wide of the mark with what I've already said, or hopefully I'm not too far away....., more the point etc etc

anyhow the more information the better

regards


andrew

[aduncanson]

If I needed to cut film regularly, I would look for an infra-red viewing device like this one (http://www.atncorp.com/atn-viper-night-vision-goggles) recommended by Ken Lee (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/member.php?u=3527)who is very active on this forum.

Of course one can still buy orthochromatic films which can be handled under certain safe lights.

[jackpie]

Using paper negatives would get you slow shutter speeds for using a lens cap for exposure. Paper is cheap and easy to cut, and process in a blacked out room with a safe light. The paper negs can be contact printed to positives or just scanned and inverted.

I'm sure 3mm glass in your plate holder will hold the film well, but you could just cut some cardboard to fit. Painting it matt black would be the next incremental improvement.

[Scott Davis]

Scott ~ After your last comment, I got the camera out and had a look, and the back does indeed come off allowing me to change it to portrait. Fantastic! I've been a bit reluctant to play with it too much in case of damaging it accidentally. You guys are being my manual :)

So does that mean I should be able to change the back quite easily?

I would love to be able to not have to use an added shutter and just control the amount of light by removing/replacing the lens cap. Do you think this would be too slow? If I used as slow a film speed as possible (can you get <100 ASA?), would this give me time to remove/replace the lens cap? Also, I love shallow D.O.F, so would love to shoot it at 5.6 if possible, but if I did this, would this then mean I would have to have a super fast shutter speed in order to compensate for the wide aperture?

Also, you mention cutting film down to size. Without sounding like a total idiot, wouldn't I have to do this in total darkness?

Thanks so much!

Jodie- you can get a back for a run-of-the-mill 4x5 camera and with not much effort, have it adapted to fit your camera. Any junker 4x5 will do so long as the back is intact. Then all you'd need to do is have a wood frame made to mount it on that fits the back of your camera.

Your best bet for an emulsion slow enough to use the lens cap in daylight would be paper negatives as mentioned previously, or coating your own dry plates. You can use Liquid Light or an equivalent to make dry plates, or go take a look at http://www.thelightfarm.com for information on making your own silver gelatin emulsions.

Cutting down your own film from larger sizes is manageable, if you can be careful and methodical. You will need a rotary trimmer with a solid, stable base and a good squaring arm. Pre-plan your cuts, and mark the baseboard in room light. Set the squaring arm in position in room light, turn off your lights, cut as many sheets as you need to the first dimension. Put the cut sheets away, then turn the lights back on, re-set the cutter for the second cut, and repeat the process if needed.

[jodiechapman]

Wow, thanks so much everyone.

@Clive Gray ~ Greetings to sunny Surrey! I purchased the camera from Rob who runs vintageclassiccamera.com. Very nice guy and very knowledgeable.

@aduncanson ~ Alan, thanks so much for those links.

@Andrew Plume ~ Andrew, I figured the more info the better! Have been bowled over by how generous everyone is with help and advice.

@Scott Davis Love that link to The Light Farm. I would love to get into making my own dry plates and will definitely do that in the future. Looks like a great reading resource.

I think I'm going to try and use some film in the camera, so my first step will need to be getting some 3mm glass plates cut to size to keep the film flat (though as @jackpie says, I could also use some cardboard!).

Wet plate collodion process is definitely something I would love to get involved in in the future, although I think I would probably have to get another camera for that as have heard the chemicals can rot the wood.

When everyone says to try paper negatives, does that include the Adox CHS 25 Art paper as mentioned earlier?

If shooting outside in daylight and controlling the shutter speed by removing/replacing the lens cap, does everyone think I would then have to shoot approx f/32 or smaller, even with a slow film speed (eg/25)? I know depth of field works differently in LF compared with MF or 35mm, but I really love shallow D.O.F. A combination of sharp and soft is my ideal.

One of the main reasons I decided to go with this camera is because I want the photographs I make to have that beautiful old pictorial look. I know there are easier routes to go to learn LF, but part of the pleasure for me is using such a beautiful instrument to create the image.

Also, I don't currently have a darkroom but am in the beginning stages of setting one up in my garage (have some previous experience of darkroom work). My Dad has one however. Is my only option of getting the film processed/printed by doing it myself, or are there companies that can do it for me in the short-term?

As always, huge thanks in advance. Really appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.

[Tim Meisburger]

Jodie, Adox CHS 25 Art is a slow film, not paper. It is ASA 25. Paper is usually about ASA 6. Using a slow film or paper will allow you to use a larger aperture than using a medium or fast film.

You can cut paper under a red safelight. Film has to be cut in the dark. If you use paper for negatives you can develop them in just a few minutes using regular paper development under a red safelight. Film development has to be done in the dark.

Once you have developed the paper it is a negative image, but you can scan it with any scanner and invert the image (make it a positive) with almost any image editing program.

Shutter speed and aperture will depend on available light. You can determine the correct combination with a light meter, or use the sunny 16 rule (if you don't know that you can google it). for example, if you were using ASA 6 paper, a portrait in open sun would require f16 at 1/6 of a second. More likely, you would want to shoot your portrait in open shade, four stops dimmer than open sun, so the correct exposure then would be f4 at 1/6. But your lens only opens to 5.6, one stop smaller than f4, so you will need to double the time to 1/3 second, which you can easily achieve with a lens cap.

Maybe that's too much information....

Cheers, Tim

[jodiechapman]

Thanks Tim. Trust me, not too much information at all. I am aware of the sunny 16 rule, but as I use digital for my pro work and tend to shoot everything as wide open as I can, I've never really called on it much. Looking forward to putting it into action with my LF venture!

Thanks for explaining about the film/paper difference too. It's all new to me. Can I ask what in your opinion you think the main differences are between paper and film negs in terms of quality etc? It sounds like paper might be the easier route for me to start off with, as I have access to a red safe light quite easily as well as the developing chemicals.

Any paper recommendations?

Sorry, I know I could probably scour the internet and find some resources (which I have been doing), but as you know a bit about my camera and what I want to achieve with it (and my limitations!), you might have some good recommendations.

Thanks again!

[Tim Meisburger]

Paper is contrasty. Quality is not high, but some people like the look, and some people make some pretty amazing images with it. The advantage of shooting paper is that it is cheap and easy. The disadvantage is its not film. If you want to give it a try, Ilford Multigrade should be fine. For that old fashioned look I would try high key portraits fading into a white background and perhaps a little underdevelopment. It might work. I would give it a try, but all my stuff is in transit to the US, so I am stuck writing, rather than shooting.

Film is probably where you want to end up, but if you want to shoot now now, paper is the quickest route.

I would use cardboard rather than glass.

[jodiechapman]

Hi Tim,

That's great ~ really helpful, thank you.

Last Q... Can I shoot Polaroid with it? Do I need a special Polaroid back and what kind of P film would I need? (although saying that I don't think The Impossible Project has any left in stock) Think the answer to my question is a big fat NO anyway as I think it's just for 4x5s...

[jackpie]

With your old camera you are in DIY world. If want to use modern films and you are any good at woodworking you have basucally 3 options.

1. Make or adapt a more modern film back (4x5, maybe 5x7) to fit your camera. It's not rocket science it just needs to be light tight. With a standard back fitted you can use current format films eg 4x5. You could also use Polaroid, if available (it has been discontinued), or Fuji instant films.

2. Make or modify the plate holder you already have to accept 4x5 film. This can be as simple as sticking it to a cardboard sheet so it doesn't rattle around in your oversize half plate holder.

3. Cut larger film to half plate and use in your holder in front of a backing board.

In my experience cutting film is difficult to do accurately in the dark. It's possible but painful, and easy to mess up. It's much easier to cut photographic paper under a red safe light.

[sully75]

You can look on ebay for a "spring" back, or ask on the classifieds here. They are usually under $40 american. Then all you need is a piece of wood that fits into the same shape that your old back fits in, and a means to attach it. Cut a hole in that piece of wood to clear the hole in the "spring" back and attach the back to that. You should be good to go for 4x5.

However you might also consider 5x7, the backs are a little harder to find but I really love the format and it might be closer to what the camera originally used.

Another thing you can do is find a 4x5 back for an 8x10 camera, they are called "reducing" backs, and they are already built up. So you could take that back and cut it down to fit your camera. A 4x5 back for a 5x7 camera might also work.

[Andrew Plume]

Last Q... Can I shoot Polaroid with it? Do I need a special Polaroid back and what kind of P film would I need? (although saying that I don't think The Impossible Project has any left in stock) Think the answer to my question is a big fat NO anyway as I think it's just for 4x5s...[/QUOTE]

Hi Jodie - yes that's right

best

andrew

[desertrat]

Paper is contrasty. Quality is not high, but some people like the look, and some people make some pretty amazing images with it. The advantage of shooting paper is that it is cheap and easy. The disadvantage is its not film. If you want to give it a try, Ilford Multigrade should be fine. For that old fashioned look I would try high key portraits fading into a white background and perhaps a little underdevelopment. It might work. I would give it a try, but all my stuff is in transit to the US, so I am stuck writing, rather than shooting.

Film is probably where you want to end up, but if you want to shoot now now, paper is the quickest route.

I would use cardboard rather than glass.
I've just started using green sensitive x-ray film. It's as cheap as the cheapest generic RC paper, it's film, and it can be exposed and developed to normal contrast. You can cut it down in the darkroom under a dim red safelight, like paper. There is a long thread here on x-ray film technique:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=48099

[jodiechapman]

Thanks so much to everyone for their comments. You've helped make everything clearer for me and I'm looking forward to getting started!

[Sirius Glass]

Jodie,

Welcome to Large Format Photography!

Talk about taking the plunge!

After decades of 35 mm photography, I expended into MF with a Hasselblad 503 CX and four lenses, a Hasselblad 903 SWC, and set up a black & white and color darkroom. The I bought a 1919 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 Rotating Back Auto Graflex that turned out to be a shelf queen. Now I have a 1953 pristine, no marks on the leather or any signs of wear, 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic and a 1927 4x5 Graflex Model D.

[Aside:
Does anyone want 50 sheet of 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 Ilford FP+4 and 250 sheet of 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 Ilford HP+5 special order film to be delivered from Ilford in September and five 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 SLR film holders??]

I am sure that you will be happy with your 1890's camera.

Steve