Roll Paper and Large Prints.

[Greg Blank]

Well I took the plunge and purchased a 42"x 98 foot roll of Ilford MGIV FB Glossy today. I have for the most part figured out the issues around making big prints in my darkrrom space of 14x14 feet - we will see :) . I have an 8x10 enlarger and a 240 Lens that covers eight by ten. I have a vaccum easel and I'l be getting some large plastic trays from Home depot or other....then possibly - since I am learning to weld build some bigger more permanent drainable process trays or I have two sections of PVC tubing roughly the diameter of expert drums, that expert drum lids will fit nicely- so I may join them and make a super large print drum I can roll.

So here are a few questions:

How do people mount prints this size? I have a Seal 110S has anyone ever used this Press to mount a very large print say 24 x 30 or bigger? Or did you go someother route?

Can glass be used in a frame that is 30 x 36 or bigger?

How is the middle of the print best supported in a frame this size?

[mcfactor]

I am so jealous

[Ron McElroy]

So here are a few questions:

How do people mount prints this size? I have a Seal 110S has anyone ever used this Press to mount a very large print say 24 x 30 or bigger? Or did you go someother route?


I have a Seal 210, which I believe is larger than your 110, and I've mounted large pieces in it by doing it in sections. As long as you can cover all the print taking multiple bites then it can be done.



Can glass be used in a frame that is 30 x 36 or bigger?


I've used glass in frames much larger 30x36. Make sure the frame can carry the weight of the glass. If you are transporting large pieces to a show then be careful on how you pack the frames.



How is the middle of the print best supported in a frame this size?

I may not understand this question. If the print is mounted and matted it doesn't need any additional support.

[Andrew O'Neill]

If you use glass, it will way a ton. Use plexi. For mounting large prints, I've used diluted Elmer's white glue on matte board.

[BetterSense]

I too have a small darkroom, and I bought a roll of 40" paper both to experiment with large print sizes and to cover all my larger-than-8x10 sizes--the large roll paper is slightly cheaper than buying precut sheets of 11x14 and 16x20. I haven't processed any monster prints yet, but I was planning on getting a home depot tray and putting a spigot in it somehow, and doing single-tray processing.

How does your vacuum easel work, and how big is it? I was just planning on using foam-core and thumbtacks for large-size prints.

[Jim Galli]

I have a Seal 3244H Vacu-Mount that I've never used. I'd love to sell it for what I paid for it but have no idea how I'd ship it. It can handle 32"X40"

I had big dreams too but..........

[shadow images]

My press will do 40x60. Anything up to 40x60 is doable with glass, as long as you are not going to ship it or use an extremely small frame.

[DanK]

How do people mount prints this size? I have a Seal 110S has anyone ever used this Press to mount a very large print say 24 x 30 or bigger? Or did you go someother route?

Can glass be used in a frame that is 30 x 36 or bigger?




I tried large prints - and used a wall-paper type adhesive, that was recommended at the time, mounted to 1/8 masonite, and overmatted....I've seen similar liquid adhesives, supposedly archival at B&H....(probably a better choice)

Mounted wet, it was quick and positionable...

I've only used plexi on bigger prints - seems that something will always fail - frame, wire, something....


I was planning on getting a home depot tray and putting a spigot in it somehow, and doing single-tray processing.

How does your vacuum easel work, and how big is it? I was just planning on using foam-core and thumbtacks for large-size prints.

I've 'roll' processed large prints in wall-paper trays, works very well with less chemical...and less space...limited to 36 inches, or so, on short side...

As far as easel, if horizontal projection, a good size sheet of sheetmetal and quality magnets hold large papers quite well....(probably work vertical as well, never tried)

Thanks,
Dan

[bob carnie]

Greg

I have a 40x60 hot press for this, I would suggest finding a shop with a big hot press that can handle your needs.
We use glass of various qualitys all the time for large murals
We use inhouse large custom wood mouldings and brace the middle if required.
You definately can roll the prints in a tube but I prefer rolling in a large custom tray.
The people that make silver recovery*plastic welders* can make you custom trays .


Well I took the plunge and purchased a 42"x 98 foot roll of Ilford MGIV FB Glossy today. I have for the most part figured out the issues around making big prints in my darkrrom space of 14x14 feet - we will see :) . I have an 8x10 enlarger and a 240 Lens that covers eight by ten. I have a vaccum easel and I'l be getting some large plastic trays from Home depot or other....then possibly - since I am learning to weld build some bigger more permanent drainable process trays or I have two sections of PVC tubing roughly the diameter of expert drums, that expert drum lids will fit nicely- so I may join them and make a super large print drum I can roll.

So here are a few questions:

How do people mount prints this size? I have a Seal 110S has anyone ever used this Press to mount a very large print say 24 x 30 or bigger? Or did you go someother route?

Can glass be used in a frame that is 30 x 36 or bigger?

How is the middle of the print best supported in a frame this size?

[ic-racer]

I'll be following along with your progress on this.

My latest area of exploration is a large plastic livestock feeding trough. Basically a bigger version of the wall paper trough. Big enough for 50" paper with some room to spare.

[Pat Kearns]

Instead of dry mounting with a press why not use linen tape at the top of the print to the mounting board and overmat the print?

[Greg Blank]

There is a lot of helpful advice in these repsonses so I appreciate all that have replied.
I like dry mounting, for a several of reasons:

From what I have read through the years, dry mounting with low temperature adhesive provides a barrier to contaminates. Using a low temp acid free adhesive allows the print to be removed from the mat board.

One of the reasons I don't overmat, is that I allow for a window a small amount larger than the print with a beveled edge, at the bottom I sign the matte, so the window allows for this.

[bob carnie]

Hi Pat

I cannot imagine not dry mounting the large fibre murals, even with the best humidity and drying conditions the prints do tend to curl way worse than small prints.
the handling of a large print is much worse than when making 20x24 ( where you can have a workflow that does not stress the image) but I have used troughs, and as well monster trays and in all cases the stress on the paper is probably the most difficult aspect, or reducing the stress of printing murals.
Ink jet prints or lambda prints are less of a problem and they can be hinged at larger sizes and you can feel comfortable presenting that way.

Bob

Instead of dry mounting with a press why not use linen tape at the top of the print to the mounting board and overmat the print?

[cyrus]

How about a simple household iron instead of a press? You just have to go over the photo a few times.

[emh]

I built rolling trays out of gutters, with end caps. Very inexpensive, and easy to make. You can cut them to any size you want.
I dry mount, too. Fiber paper is difficult to keep flat without dry mounting. My press needs to do the mounting in sections, but I've found a few frame shops/galleries that let me use their large presses. Sometimes I give them a smaller version, in exchange for use of the press.

[Asher Kelman]

I'm wondering about processing the paper! Are there supersize drums for 30"x40" or 24"x48", for example?

Tray work would seem to be a problem as getting the entire thing in without a time difference between one end and other would appear to be the great challenge?

Asher

[Greg Blank]

I almost forgot I started this thread. I get busy :) I looked at the whole shebang, videos on you tube, etc. I did finally get a large refrigerator tray from Home Depot it was barely adequate, after three prints I had one that I could use. The tray was too small, with a bit of finess I managed a 24 x30. I had it dry mounted by a local gallery and frame place that had experience. I would have bought a large piece of PVC with end caps and floor rolled it. But the immediate requirement and the potential to realize a sale precluded the investment in a new piece of drain pipe versus one that had sewage previously run through it :( I thought my reputation deserved just a bit higher standard than that).

With the Jobo stuff I have been doing its got me thinking about doing custom darkroom consulting and custom repair & fabrication here on the east coast. Once I master Tig welding I intend to build stainless sinks and other processing gear. With my electronics background of the past five years I am certain I can build custom processors.




I'm wondering about processing the paper! Are there supersize drums for 30"x40" or 24"x48", for example?

Tray work would seem to be a problem as getting the entire thing in without a time difference between one end and other would appear to be the great challenge?

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

I almost forgot I started this thread. I get busy :) I looked at the whole shebang, videos on you tube, etc. I did finally get a large refrigerator tray from Home Depot it was barely adequate, after three prints I had one that I could use. The tray was too small, with a bit of finess I managed a 24 x30.

I'm so impressed, Greg! Did it work on the first try? With your drain pipe rolling drums, how do you get the liquids in fast enough and what diameter do you use?

What's needed here is a processor where the paper is just fed in, 30-40" wide, LOL!

Asher

[Greg Blank]

Asher, I did not use a drain pipe. For a pipe you would use the diameter of the pipe comparatively to the short dimension of the print. The length can be the full 40" for a 30 inch wide print you would need about a 12" wide tube. I say about,..Since PVC only comes in preset sizes. Then you would still need to figure the chemistry addition and removal issues. You could just estimate the time to remove the cap and put it back on relative to the total development time. Fixer and stop steps are not a big deal. Another thought would be cutting or drilling a hole in the cap big enough to fill and drain the chemicals. I can see building a large stainless drum and driving it with a larger motor base if one intends to do a lot of big prints.

I might add that the quotes for big enough pipe were in the neighborhood of $100.00 for end caps and a much longer section than I needed.
The printing paper already had cost me around 400.00, frame and matting also well over 100.00 so at the time I was thinking how to make the process a bit less expensive.



I'm so impressed, Greg! Did it work on the first try? With your drain pipe rolling drums, how do you get the liquids in fast enough and what diameter do you use?

What's needed here is a processor where the paper is just fed in, 30-40" wide, LOL!

Asher

[LF_rookie_to_be]

If you look hard enough, you can get a drain pipe as well as end caps for free at construction sites. For the filling/draining issue, look at how the caps on a Cibachrome drum are constructed - and then improve on that. For B&W, one drain+fill cap will do. Cut a larger hole in the middle of the cap and glue a cup on the bottom surface. It should be half-open at the top. For the light trap, put four sections of a slightly larger cup almost the length of the first cup in front of each opening. If the cap leaks, gaffer tape will help. Use neoprene glue for PP/PE pipes.

[Asher Kelman]

If you look hard enough, you can get a drain pipe as well as end caps for free at construction sites. For the filling/draining issue, look at how the caps on a Cibachrome drum are constructed - and then improve on that. For B&W, one drain+fill cap will do. Cut a larger hole in the middle of the cap and glue a cup on the bottom surface. It should be half-open at the top. For the light trap, put four sections of a slightly larger cup almost the length of the first cup in front of each opening. If the cap leaks, gaffer tape will help. Use neoprene glue for PP/PE pipes.

Sounds great! Do you have pictures of the setup?

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

Not all drainage or irrigation pipe is light tight, and beware of residual chemicals or mould releases which should be scrubbed off thoroughly. In smallers diameter tubes, ordinary thick-walled ABS pipe should work well. Big sizes would have to be obtained
from irrigation suppliers or specialty industrial pipe outfitters. Cap design is critical, because you need something which is not only light-tight, but which fills and drains
quickly, preferably while actual rotation is occuring.

[Greg Blank]

I agree, the very things I ran into. I called several local companies that had surplus for fifteen dollars. They could not gaurentee it was light proof or had not had Crap run through it. Only way to insure a crap free experience was to buy a tweleve foot section for over two hundred dollars. Plus the end caps like fifty dollars each. Light proof is not a huge problem for B&W if you load in the darkroom and process in the darkroom.



Not all drainage or irrigation pipe is light tight, and beware of residual chemicals or mould releases which should be scrubbed off thoroughly. In smallers diameter tubes, ordinary thick-walled ABS pipe should work well. Big sizes would have to be obtained
from irrigation suppliers or specialty industrial pipe outfitters. Cap design is critical, because you need something which is not only light-tight, but which fills and drains
quickly, preferably while actual rotation is occuring.

[ROL]

Mounting Large Prints (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/Fine%20Art%20Print%20Presentation#mountinglargeprints)

[Brian K]

I took a class in mural size printing at ICP, 4'-5" prints. They use custom made steel troughs as the trays and the way you agitate the print is by scrolling it into a double scroll and scroll one way then the other. You will find though that when using fiber paper that the likelihood of kinking the print is very high. At ICP we used resin coated which is more durable and even then I kinked every print I made.

You can use plastic flower boxes as the trays. They're cheap and they work. But the kinking issue is a big one.

Also in most cases I recommend NOT using glass, using anti UV abrasion resistant plexi instead. The problem with glass is that if the glass should break, most likely it will destroy the print.

[ROL]

I took a class in mural size printing at ICP, 4'-5" prints. They use custom made steel troughs as the trays and the way you agitate the print is by scrolling it into a double scroll and scroll one way then the other. You will find though that when using fiber paper that the likelihood of kinking the print is very high. At ICP we used resin coated which is more durable and even then I kinked every print I made.

Indeed. I use large Cesco trays for (fiber) roll paper as wide as 42". I process large prints up to 30X40 exactly as I do normal sheet paper. It requires a large sink (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/a-darkroom-portrait#wetside), care, and reasonably long arms, but is, from my experience, infinitely better than scrolling paper trough the process. There really is nothing like a large silver print from a good negative. They are a marvel to behold, and occupy a place in fine art printing distinct from normal sheet sizes, if for no other reason than the dedication and difficulty in their execution.

[bob carnie]

Really nice looking Darkroom.

Indeed. I use large Cesco trays for (fiber) roll paper as wide as 42". I process large prints up to 30X40 exactly as I do normal sheet paper. It requires a large sink (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/a-darkroom-portrait#wetside), care, and reasonably long arms, but is, from my experience, infinitely better than scrolling paper trough the process. There really is nothing like a large silver print from a good negative. They are a marvel to behold, and occupy a place in fine art printing distinct from normal sheet sizes, if for no other reason than the dedication and difficulty in their execution.

[Brian K]

Indeed. I use large Cesco trays for (fiber) roll paper as wide as 42". I process large prints up to 30X40 exactly as I do normal sheet paper. It requires a large sink (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/a-darkroom-portrait#wetside), care, and reasonably long arms, but is, from my experience, infinitely better than scrolling paper trough the process. There really is nothing like a large silver print from a good negative. They are a marvel to behold, and occupy a place in fine art printing distinct from normal sheet sizes, if for no other reason than the dedication and difficulty in their execution.

I agree with Bob, nice darkroom.

A 40" in tray is workable, the prints I was doing at ICP were 60" so scrolling becomes the only route unless you have a gigantic sink island with access on all sides and giant custom made trays. A lab I've used for my large silver prints has a motorized track on the ceiling that dips and dunks into troughs keeping the paper with a gentle "U" as it raises one side and then lowers it as it raises the other. It's all computer controlled and very impressive.

[bob carnie]

they stole my idea, shit I wanted to make a monster dip and dunk for fibre paper and film, I was quoted 140k and said no thanks so I scroll in large tubs that hold 40 litres of chem per tube.

I agree with Bob, nice darkroom.

A 40" in tray is workable, the prints I was doing at ICP were 60" so scrolling becomes the only route unless you have a gigantic sink island with access on all sides and giant custom made trays. A lab I've used for my large silver prints has a motorized track on the ceiling that dips and dunks into troughs keeping the paper with a gentle "U" as it raises one side and then lowers it as it raises the other. It's all computer controlled and very impressive.

[Brian K]

they stole my idea, shit I wanted to make a monster dip and dunk for fibre paper and film, I was quoted 140k and said no thanks so I scroll in large tubs that hold 40 litres of chem per tube.

Bob, they have 4 darkrooms like that, and 4 10x10" horizontal enlargers. The whole set up is just incredible.

[Ed Kelsey]

If you use glass, it will way a ton. Use plexi. For mounting large prints, I've used diluted Elmer's white glue on matte board.

Elmer's Glue? Are you serious ?

[ROL]

Really nice looking Darkroom.

Thanks again Bob, and Brian. The "beauty" lighting helps. And would you believe it occupies half of my 2 car garage? Here, in this video (http://www.youtube.com/user/ROLCFA?feature=mhsn#p/u), is a look at the other half.

[Ed Brock]

If you are using the tube method there is no need for end caps. Just place the paper in the tube and move the tube from dev to stop to fix to wash. You only need enough solution to wet the lowest part of the tube since you are rotating it in each tray. Trays need only be just a little larger than the tube. I had long stainless trays built for the process before I figured out how to glue ABS 1/4" sheets to make trays. ABS comes in 8-10' long sheets.

[Asher Kelman]

If you are using the tube method there is no need for end caps. Just place the paper in the tube and move the tube from dev to stop to fix to wash. You only need enough solution to wet the lowest part of the tube since you are rotating it in each tray. Trays need only be just a little larger than the tube. I had long stainless trays built for the process before I figured out how to glue ABS 1/4" sheets to make trays. ABS comes in 8-10' long sheets.

Ed,

Have you used this for Cibachrome, for the large Professional roll paper and processing system? That would be wonderful if it could be accomplished. I guess that one just needs a way of maintaining temp.

Asher

[bob carnie]

Ok Brian , when I am in New York I want to visit this lab, they sound like my kind of people.


Bob, they have 4 darkrooms like that, and 4 10x10" horizontal enlargers. The whole set up is just incredible.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Sounds great! Do you have pictures of the setup?

Asher

Asher, here are the pictures:

[LF_rookie_to_be]

More pics:

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Last set of pics:

[LF_rookie_to_be]

I called several local companies that had surplus for fifteen dollars. They could not gaurentee it was light proof or had not had Crap run through it. Only way to insure a crap free experience was to buy a tweleve foot section for over two hundred dollars. Plus the end caps like fifty dollars each.

Neither the drum or caps (I got about ten caps) that can be seen here cost me anything. I just got a 51" long pipe with 36" inner circumference. It's over 1/4" thick, so definitely light proof. Just look around, there has to be a construction site near you with pieces destined for landfill or recycling lying around.

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks, Rookie for the wonderful pictures. Did you try and give up on having open ends and a tray? Do you ever find that if the processes were short then the time taken to get the chemicals all over the film gave uneven processing or streaks?

Also, in practical terms, what's the largest tube you think might work like this? Do you rotate by hand or do you have rollers?

What about maintaining temp?

Asher

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Asher,

There are several reasons why I gave up on trays. One is the inevitably reduced life of chemicals when using a tray, and RA-4 stuff ain't cheap. Second is the fumes, which are a bit of a more worry than your regular B&W stuff, even with good ventilation - but a very small darkroom. The process indeed is short, as R in RA-4 stands for "rapid" and I learnt it on 16x20 prints. Two solutions cropped up: larger than recommended volume and agitating as much as your muscles can stand. But the larger you go, you might start diluting the developer to reduce its initial activity on paper. My current dilution is largely per Tetenal recommendation for CD-R replenisher plus about 20% more water. Bleach fix isn't diluted since it is replenished less and Kodak's bleach fix lasts a good while. Temperature is one thing which I can control only outside the drum - meaning all plastic containers with chems sit in larger ones with water at cca. 40 degrees C. About the size - the larger drum I mentioned two posts earlier is about as far as I can go in a 7x8ft darkroom. But if you were to use a much larger tube, I'd suggest not using a cup and instead dedicate some 1/6th of the tube's circumference for the chemicals, meaning that the chemicals are poured in the drum lying horizontally and sit at the bottom 1/6th (or less) and wait until you start rolling. That would, I think, eliminate any possible streaks. I rotate this drum by hand, it isn't that heavy. But rollers can make it easier - IF you still agitate the tube left-to-right. The only processing steps that are one-shot are stop and wash, both dev and blix are recycled and replenished.

LF_rtb

[cdk84]

My experience with 20" wide 40" long prints is the following:

1) use 16x20" trays, per standard B&W printing procedure
2) use a piece of flat PVC, 20" long, with smoothed edges, to support each short side of paper
3) immerse paper in developer and slid it gently through developer lifting first one side (supported by PVC strip) and then the other in a smooth, back and forth rhythm that assured chemistry reached the entire surface with each pass
4) continue the cycle through the remaining processing baths
5) rinse print with hose in bathroom
6) wash in 5 gallon joint compound bucket
7) squeegee verso first, then front, with care and affix with plastic clothes pins to dry

This procedure is easier if one is accustomed to working on a time-temperature basis for printing.

Advantages: Speed, ease, no special equipment necessary, print visible during development (with warm developer on hand, and cool water, post-exposure '"burning" and "dodging" can be affected)

Disadvantages: Possibility of spillage, greater than normal carry-over from one developing tray to another and, hence shorter chemical duty cycle (monitor fixer with care, use indicator stop bath)

If one is patient, practice can make this a very effective procedure. A certain degree of coordination is required if one wants not to 'dimple' the printing paper during the procedure; this comes with the aforementioned practice.

Wearing latex gloves is strongly recommended to protect the hands, with excellent ventilation in the darkroom.

As a trained paper conservator, I was accustomed to handling very fragile materials and discontinued the use of the PVC bars, using just gloved hands. This technique may be difficult at first for those not comfortable moving large pieces of paper, weighed down by liquid, in this manner. Practice helped. Being very tall helped as well --one of the few times it hasn't been a burden (as in not fitting the sports cars I can't afford anyway).

Please be in touch if you have questions.

[Asher Kelman]

My experience with 20" wide 40" long prints is the following:

1) use 16x20" trays, per standard B&W printing procedure
2) use a piece of flat PVC, 20" long, with smoothed edges, to support each short side of paper
3) immerse paper in developer and slid it gently through developer lifting first one side (supported by PVC strip) and then the other in a smooth, back and forth rhythm that assured chemistry reached the entire surface with each pass..........


So then, the limit to the length is based on how long ones arms are. It's impressive that you can handle 40" prints, so about 16" is in the tray and 12" is on each side. Given that, what's the longest sheet you think you could process? It would be nice to have a machine to do this!

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

Asher - what exactly are you contemplating here? Doing very large RA4 prints in
open trays would be gambling with your health and rather difficult to control the
process variables like temp anyway. Doing big Cibas in open trays would risk ruining
your health permanently, maybe even the first time. And you'd have obscene volumes of expensive chem going down the drain repeatedly. Are you thinking of
mainly black and white paper instead? Sure wish the only option for that at the
moment wasn't Multigrade IV. It's OK, but nothing exceptional in my opinion.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher - what exactly are you contemplating here? Doing very large RA4 prints in
open trays would be gambling with your health and rather difficult to control the
process variables like temp anyway. Doing big Cibas in open trays would risk ruining
your health permanently, maybe even the first time. And you'd have obscene volumes of expensive chem going down the drain repeatedly. Are you thinking of
mainly black and white paper instead? Sure wish the only option for that at the
moment wasn't Multigrade IV. It's OK, but nothing exceptional in my opinion.

Drew,

I look to see what other folk find possible. That doesn't mean I'll do it that way. For now, I'm limiting my photography and printing to 8x10 and 20x24v as these I can accomplish using my Chamonix 8x10 and the smaller version of my Camera Obscura and then process in my Jobo tanks. I'm wondering about the possibility of doing 50"x74-88" myself as opposed to sending it out. So anything I can learn from how other folk handle large sheets is helpful to my creative thinking.

Asher