PDA

View Full Version : 4x10 questions



612tom
2-Aug-2010, 06:24
I love panoramic formats and have been shooting 6x12s on a Horseman SW612 for years before trading for an Ebony and cropping my 4x5s to the 6x12 format. Next came the thinking about getting a dedicated roll film back, either 6x12 or the 6x17, but I gave it a miss and kept on cropping for a bit. However I prefer to crop in camera and print full frame right to the film edges aka HCB.

So now I've started stitching 2 4x5s together to make a 4x10" (or 4x9ish" with overlap). My Ebony has loads of rear shift, and with a 210mm lens that covers 8x10 I dont move the tripod, just shift the rear standard.

It works with static subjects and lighting. But do a colour 1min dusk exposure for the left frame, shift to the right to finish the panorama, and there is no way the light is going to be the same - stitching is impossible. Likewise, waterfalls, running rivers, and the waves at the coast is a real PITA to stitch together.

So, being a little bit of a purist (arent all LF photographers?!), I'm looking at a dedicated 4x10 set up, and have the following questions I hope you could help me with:

Film Availability: Get on the Ilford ULF run each year and stock up. OR buy 8x10 and slice it myself... no dramas (he says, confidently).

Developing BW: I can tray dev 4x10 without too much fuss. I invested in 4x5 and got a Jobo 2523 tank, there's no way I'll be able roll up a sheet or 2 of 4x10 and wedge them in that tank is there?

Developing Colour 4x10: HOW? I'm in Melbourne, Oz and labs are few and far between. My local lab (Lab X) handles my 4x5s and lists 8x10s on the price list dip and dunk. How would they do a 4x10 if I rocked up to them with a box of chopped up sheets? Would they clip the 10" side to a 8x10 dev frame and dunk away or would they have a problem? How do you guys and girls do it?

I guess this question is a real advocate for investing in an 8x10 set up and doing the split-darkslide thing and exposing 2 per 8x10 sheet. No cutting. No awkward lab film dev issues. But I like the compact size of the 4x5 and the 4x10 isnt that much bigger. 8x10 will be a bit of a leap in terms of bulk and weight and I like to travel light.

I invested quite heavily in the 4x5 format when coming from 120 6x12s. Camera, 2 lenses, quickload back, freezer full of film, film holders, grafmatics, PA45 back and fuji-roids, Jobo tank. Does it seem a bit silly to get rid of all but 1 lens just for a new format? There's no way the Ebony, any future 4x10, and my fiance could co-exist :D

All these questions before I even get on to discussing which 4x10 would be the right one. Shen Hao, Wisner, Ebony (too$$!), even a nice looking Chamonix out there... Availability of film holders to match the camera (I've been reading up on the differing thicknesses / formats) also needs to be considered...

Making my head hurt...

Gem Singer
2-Aug-2010, 07:38
From my brief experience with a Canham 4x10 camera:

B&W film in 4x10 is available in limited emulsions from a limited number of film manufacturers (requires special order).

No problem tray developing 4x10 B&W, but finding a lab that can develop 4x10 color film could prove to be problematic.

If you want to use a variety of 4x10 color films, you would need to purchase 8x10 sheets and cut them in half in a darkroom (a real PITA).

4x10 film holders are expensive (more than $100).

Wisner 4x10 film holders are not interchangeable with Canham 4x10 holders. I'm not sure about the size of the 4x10 holders that are made in China.

My suggestion, stay with your Ebony and stitching two 4x5's. Or purchase an 8x10 camera and crop.

Kevin Crisp
2-Aug-2010, 07:53
I went with the Canham 4X10 and am very satisfied with it. There is a learning curve on setting it up and taking it down since it just isn't like anything else. You get used to that. I also made a 5X7 back for it since it is very easy to do on this model.

I've cut film down, using a conventional bladed paper cutter. I built up a little ledge I can find in the dark on the surface, made it out of a few layers of tape. Not hard to do. I notch it for orientation on the edge with a hole punch and then load the holders.

Haven't done any color so can't comment.

eric black
2-Aug-2010, 08:04
I shoot 4x10 color quite a bit (Canham camera) and have found that once I got used to a few new manipulations, the rest of shooting the format is quite easy. I cant comment on the B&W but some of what I do for my color workflow is detailed here:

For cutting film, I use a rotary trimmer with a ruler that has been cemented in place- a couple of test cuts with 8x10 rejects is all it takes to get the position of the ruler correct- I find cutting in the darkroom to be quite easy and I use a scissors to cut off a corner where the notch needs to be for identifying the emulsion side of the film.

I develop using a JOBO cpp2 with a 3005 expert drum. If I am doing 5 sheets or less, I give each sheet a slot- if more than the 5 I have plastic custom dividers to insert into the tubes so that a max of 10 sheets can be developed at any time. The dividers have holes to allow the fluids to agitate and pass easily through the drum during processing.

With some patience on ebay, you should be able to get some holders for $70-$80 per- I have Canham holders which I believe are identical to the Chinese ones mentioned???. Nothing you can really do about the lenses- some 4x5 lenses will cover, some wont and you might end up like me relplacing a few 4x5 lenses with ones with larger coverages.

I should mention that my like for this format developed over the years and I went through the split darkslide 8x10 and roll film backs stages prior to making the commitment to this format. Good luck in your decision!

Kevin Crisp
2-Aug-2010, 08:21
There are some fairly economical lenses that cover 4X10 quite easily. The wide angle Wollies, G Clarons, the original Symmar 240mm in the Compur 2 shutters.

Vaughn
2-Aug-2010, 09:13
I use a modified dark slide to get two 4x10 negs on a sheet of 8x10 film. That way I have two formats (8x10 and 4x10) with just the extras weight of half a film holder (more like 60% of one, actually).

Not the "purist's" way to go, but practical for for me. You could even stitch together two 8x10's to make a 8x20 or 10x16.

Lachlan 717
2-Aug-2010, 14:19
Shen Hao makes a 4x10. Have a look at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-19038.html

Also, I know that Prism in Nth Melb does 4x10 colour processing. They were doing some last week.

Robert Oliver
2-Aug-2010, 14:43
the modified darkslide approach is pretty easy to work with... I've done it with 4x5 holders. I've been thinking about doing it with 8x10.... 4 pictures per holder.

Robert Oliver
2-Aug-2010, 14:44
you'd have to change your profile name!

Greg Miller
2-Aug-2010, 15:02
If you happen to change your mind, color balancing 2 photos in Photoshop is fairly simple using the Channels Palette and curves (because you can balance one image to the other in each of the 3 color channels in gray scale). PM me if you want a quick tutorial.
http://www.gregmillerphotography.com/Panoramas/images/N000978.jpg

Also, waterfalls and running rivers are easier to stitch because the moving water and long exposures removes detail and averages everything out.

http://www.gregmillerphotography.com/Panoramas/images/N000046.jpg

Brian Vuillemenot
2-Aug-2010, 19:47
Hi Tom,

4X10 is a great format. Cutting down 8X10 film is quite easy, and a dedicated 4X10 camera is a lot easier to transport and set up than an 8X10. It also helps to get you into the panoramic mindset.

If you decide to go with a 4X10 camera, I have a lovely near mint Wisner TF 4X10 that I'm trying to find a new home for:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=62584&highlight=wisner

Please drop me an e-mail off line if you'd like to know more.

Keith Pitman
2-Aug-2010, 20:00
There's quite a bit of info here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/4x10.html

Pay particular attention to the comments on film holders. I would advise against buying anything that does not use Canham-type film holders. The Canham-type seem to be most common and are available for several sources.

Brian is correct about dedicated cameras. My Chamonix weighs about five pounds versus an 8x10 at nine pounds. The dedicated 4x10 is considerably smaller too.

612tom
3-Aug-2010, 05:40
Brian is correct about dedicated cameras. My Chamonix weighs about five pounds versus an 8x10 at nine pounds. The dedicated 4x10 is considerably smaller too.

Hi Brian - how do you find the Chamonix, is this the 410n? There's no photos on the Chamonix website but 5 pounds / 2.2kg sounds pretty light...

612tom
3-Aug-2010, 05:43
If you decide to go with a 4X10 camera, I have a lovely near mint Wisner TF 4X10 that I'm trying to find a new home for:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=62584&highlight=wisner



Wow what an absolute beauty - I'd be afraid of damaging and ruining it! How many holders do you have or did you have when you used it?

Brian Vuillemenot
3-Aug-2010, 20:38
Wow what an absolute beauty - I'd be afraid of damaging and ruining it! How many holders do you have or did you have when you used it?

I only have one holder, which is of the Wisner style. That makes for a light backpack but the need to load holders a lot! Unfortunately, the Wisner style holders are hard to come by. However, I've heard that Keith Canham can convert the back to use his style holders for a reasonable fee.

Scott Davis
4-Aug-2010, 07:31
I've been using a Canham 5x12, which I prefer greatly over the 4x10 format, even though it limits the film choices even more. Having said that, I'd still go for the dedicated format - it makes it so much easier to think about what you're shooting when you don't have the distractions of having to shift the back/front standards and/or mask the ground glass.

Vaughn
4-Aug-2010, 08:15
Having a dedicated camera does make a lot of sense if one is using only the 4x10 format and not interested in 8x10. Weight and bulk are significantly reduced. But I'll admit that if I ever go to 11x14, I'll have a dark slide cut so that I can make 5.5x14 negatives! LOL!

One advantage of the modified dark slide route is that one can do verticals without turning the camera on its side. One disadvantage is having to insert the modified darkslide and remove it -- it is just an extra step one can mess up...which I have a few times. But I am getting better...

I am thinking of modifying a darkslide to make 8x8 negatives, too. I learned photography using a Rolleiflex and sometimes I miss the square!

I don't mask the GG -- no real need to do that (grid pattern marked on my GG).

Vaughn

612tom
5-Aug-2010, 22:16
Hi Brian - how do you find the Chamonix, is this the 410n? There's no photos on the Chamonix website but 5 pounds / 2.2kg sounds pretty light...

Apologies, I do of course mean to direct this question at Keith!

Lachlan 717
5-Aug-2010, 23:46
How have you gone with the film availability/processing issues?

612tom
6-Aug-2010, 18:37
How have you gone with the film availability/processing issues?

Hey Lachlan

Thanks for letting me know Prism do 4x10, I think they do E6 only and not C41. I spoke to someone at Lab X who said they could do it, clipping the 10" side to an 8x10 frame and then one corner of the 4" side. They do C41 and E6 and would charge the same as an 8x10. So there are possibilities for colour. And B/W I will do myself. Somehow.

I buy in all my sheet film from the US anyway - save for maybe a box of Delta 100 4x5 from Les Porter occasionally.

With 8x10 I reckon I'll be buying it all in from the US. Although BH dont seem to stock any Velvia or Provia in 8x10. They dont even list it. This is a bit odd - has anyone else found this? Adorama have some, but it seems Fuji transparency emulsions in 8x10 are a bit hard to come by - even in the US.... :confused:

Where do you buy your film - are you mainly using 120 for you 6x17 namesake?!

Cheers