Crown/Super Graphic stability? Alternatives?

[engl]

I own a Pacemaker Crown Graphic, bought a couple of months ago as my first LF camera. The camera unfortunately is not in very good condition. I bought it for 200$ but ended up with a 90$ refund as the camera did not match the description. Too bad I spent a fair bit of money on shipping and then customs cost for the full price + shipping...

Anyway, the biggest issue with the camera is that the bed is somewhat bent (not perfectly perpendicular to the body). Actually, everything about this camera seems slightly bent. This means the front standard is not parallel to the GG/film, and with limited movement, it is not possible to correct for. Another major problem is stability. If placed on the inner rails (for a wide lens), the front standard can be wiggled several millimeters. The outer rails are luckily much better, but still not as rigid as Id expect.

Other issues with the camera include broken rangefinder, holes in the bellow, scratched lens/stuck shutter and the ground glass looks like a battlefield. Im not convinced the GG and film holder always go in exactly the same spot.

So now Im considering what to do next, and would like some feedback an answers about different routes.

1. Buy another Crown Graphic, in good condition. Could I expect a Crown with decent rigidity/reliability/alignment? It does not need to be able to survive abuse or shooting in a thunderstorm, I just want to shoot wide lenses at F11 without focus issues on the GG or film.

2. Buy a Super Graphic. More movements, especially front tilt that I miss (not easily done with a wide lens on the Crown), rotating back. How does it otherwise compare to the Crown, build quality etc?

3. Buy another camera. I do not need a rangefinder, but Id want something around 2.5kg (or less) that can easily be carried and set up. Are there any such options at around 400$ or less? Bellows draw does not matter much, rather wide lens capabilities.

4. Soldier on with my train wreck camera. Despite all its faults, it still produces nice images, and Ive learnt a lot from it. I guess this option is more of a discussion between me and my thin wallet :)

[Frank Petronio]

A good Crown Graphic will be as sturdy, solid, and true as anything else you could buy that is less than $600 and folds into a box. They don't get any sturdier until you get into the Linhofs and other metal bodied field cameras. Many of the wooden folding cameras are worse than the Crown, and I wouldn't expect a Speed or a Super Graphic to be much different.

[Mark Woods]

I have my dad's Crown 2 1/4 x 2 3/4 camera he bought in 1938. It's wonderful. If yours is bent, someone dropped it. If the bends are constant, you could shoot with it. Look at the images, look at the wallet. One will win. ;-)

[Dan Fromm]

Mark, if he bought it in 1938 it is a Miniature Speed Graphic, not a 2x3 Crown. The Crown -- all sizes -- was introduced in 1947.

Visit www.graflex.org to learn what you have.

[Bill_1856]

Poor baby -- sounds like you really got screwed on your Crown. Just dropping it wouldn't have caused that kind of damage, it must have been run over by something.
I love my 4x5 Crown, less enthusiastic about 4x5 Super, find myself actually using my 4x5 Busch Pressman D for landscape where lens tilt is important. It weighs the same as the Crown, has metal body, and they sell for a lot less than a Super.

[engl]

Thanks for the replies!

Bill_1856, what about the Crown do you like? Or rather, what are the weaknesses of the Super?

Ill also look into that Busch Pressman D.

[ki6mf]

I have a Graphic with front and back shutters. If you are going to hand hold I would opt for one without the rear shutter and eliminate the extra weight! If hand hold is not going to happen you can also find rail view cameras in good condition for around $200. A view camera also gives you front and back movements!

[Brian Stein]

you got seriously stiffed on this one: a decent crown as frank p said is a solid square non-flexible beastie.

For me the trade off between crown and super is cheaper vs more expensive, lighter vs heavier, limited movements (front tilt) vs decent front movements. The deal breaker may be the front tilt: you can get sort of front tilt on a crown by dropping the bed and tilting backwards partway but its a pain. The crown does not have the focal plane shutter; as noted by ki6mf this makes it lighter than the speed which does and also gives it a little more wide angle capacity. All-in for me the crown won.

[Frank Petronio]

You can buy a Calumet monorail for under $100 and a decent Cambo or Toyo for $150 to $200. Sinar Fs go for $250. So if you want a studier, full movement camera the monorails are a steal.

[Dan Fromm]

engl, since no one mentioned it one of the major differences between the Crown and the Super is that the Crown's (also the Pacemaker Speed's) inner (inside the box) and outer (on the door) bed rails are linked and the Super's aren't. This makes focusing lenses that make infinity on the inner rails much easier with the Crown and Pacemaker Speed than with the Super. That is, the Crown is easier to use with short lenses than the Super.

Wally, removing a Speed's focal plane shutter is just plain dumb. Saves little weight, cripples the camera, reduces resale value. And it doesn't make the Speed any more usable with short lenses.

[engl]

Im not really interested in monorail cameras, as I need something fairly portable and quick to set up. Field cameras could be of interest, but I have yet to see one that is capable, sturdy and 200-400$ used. I might pick up a 100-200$ monorail someday, but it is not what I need right now.

It still seems to me that a better press camera is the way to do. I read up on the Busch Pressman D and it seems to be a very capable camera. Reading about that, I also stumbled upon the Burke & James Press camera.

1. The Crown, again. Linked inner rails for wide angle focusing. Limited movements, no rotating back.

2. Super Graphic. Gains many movements over the Crown, a rotating back and all metal construction. Looses the linked rails for wide angle focusing (thanks for the tip Mr. Fromm, important information indeed).

3. Busch Pressman D. Lots of movement, rotating back, all metal, said to have very good build quality. Unfortunately, small lens boards restricting lens use to #0 and some #1 lenses, many wide lenses do not fit, nor can they be focused on inner rails.

4. Burke & James Press. Lots of movement, rotating back, all metal, but build quality seems lower than the others (hard to find information though). No lens board issues, also no inner rails.

I seems I want the body of the Baush Pressman D, the back and lensboard of the Super Graphic, the front standard of the B&J Press and the inner focusing rails of the Crown...

[dave_whatever]

Hows about an M.P.P., generally not that expensive.

[IanG]

Hows about an M.P.P., generally not that expensive.

Essentially an English Linof Technika, (based on the early model), the Mk VII is the best, but they are rarely cheap these days.

The Busch Pressman has poor flexibility, difficult to change lenses etc.

Ian

[Bill_1856]

they are rarely cheap these days.

The Busch Pressman has poor flexibility, difficult to change lenses etc.

Ian

Not true. Apparently you've never actually used one.

[engl]

What would be the strengths of the MPP, compared to the four I listed? How are movements and lens compatibility?

[Frank Petronio]

While the other cameras have some strengths, none are going to be appreciably better all-around than a good Crown Graphic, they are all in the same league. You might do better waiting patiently for a really good deal on one of the favorites suggested here, based on the condition of the camera rather than any specific model.

[Patrick Dixon]

The Busch Pressman has poor flexibility, difficult to change lenses etc.

It has a decent range of movement and changing lenses is easy. It has a small lensboard and narrow bellows opening though, so recessed lensboards are a no-no (in fact any lensboard is difficult to find), and lenses with large rear elements won't fit. But there are plenty of sensibly priced excellent small lenses that will fit, and that are more in keeping anyway.

[Brian C. Miller]

Hi, engl. My sympathies on your bum deal. Graphics are built like tanks, weigh proportianately, and when they aren't destroyed, are good indefinitely. I had to replace the GG on my Super Graphic, but now it is absolutely fine.

The first LF camera I bought was a Super Graphic, and I still use it. I also have a Toyo 45AX. The cameras weigh the same and are about the same size. The Super Graphic doesn't have rear movements, but for landscape work it isn't something I miss. It is very fast to set up (hello, press camera here) and start photographing. The 45AX is a bit more fiddly, and it has more movements.

The linked focusing is only worthwhile for the range finder or the distance guage. Otherwise put a piece of tape on the bed, mark some distances, and be done. I always use the GG with my Super Graphic.

What kind of photography do you really want to do with the camera? If you are going to put it on a tripod, then of course you will use the GG, and setup time isn't that critical. If it is going to be hand held, then press cameras, or something with a hand grip, are going to be the only choice. Press cameras are designed to be folded up with the lens on the camera, so that's also nice.

Is there a LF group where you live? Then you could see (and handle) a number of cameras and talk to people about them.

[BradS]

I cannot imagine a Crown Graphic being "unstable". Nor can I fathom how the front standard could ever be not parallel to the film plane....unless the camera was butchered by some hack that thought it would be better with front swings....or, possibly, somebody tried to close it with the focus rail extended....or the camera was run over by a garbage truck or something equally unlikely.

As others have already said, the Crown Graphic is going to be hard to beat given your desire for inexpensive, sturdy, quick to set up and portable...etc.

Sounds like you really got the shaft. Any chance of returning for a refund?

[Frank Petronio]

Gee a Pressman just popped up in the classified, $210 w lens... looks nice (no relationship w seller, buyer beware).

[Brian Stein]

What would be the strengths of the MPP, compared to the four I listed? How are movements and lens compatibility?

for info have a look here http://www.mppusers.freeuk.com/microtec.htm
the later models have full front movement and rotating back. no idea about lens boards etc.
they are more likely to come up on ebay uk; when i was looking for a press type camera I had little luck in getting one on the same price/condition range as a crown.

[rdenney]

for info have a look here http://www.mppusers.freeuk.com/microtec.htm
the later models have full front movement and rotating back. no idea about lens boards etc.
they are more likely to come up on ebay uk; when i was looking for a press type camera I had little luck in getting one on the same price/condition range as a crown.

MPP was the Graflex of the UK, and they made a lot of cameras. Not so many are available on this side of the pond.

Rick "who sees them come up only rarely" Denney

[IanG]

MPP was the Graflex of the UK, and they made a lot of cameras. Not so many are available on this side of the pond.

Rick "who sees them come up only rarely" Denney

They were rather upmarket from Graflex, a very different concept except the MicrPress which is part Graflex anyway.

It was MPP & Linhof that woke Graflex up and brought about the Super graphic, a camera they should hve mde years earlier.

Ian

[rdenney]

They were rather upmarket from Graflex, a very different concept except the MicrPress which is part Graflex anyway.

What I meant was in terms of their ownership of the press photography market. That was a time when it was difficult to import anything into the UK. The MPP was the ubiquitous British-made press camera.

Rick "not arguing their relative merits" Denney

[Wayne Crider]

Concerning the front standard moving on the back rails, this is after your lock it I presume and the standard is centered with locking tab up to prevent shift? Try racking the rails out as far as necessary, pull the standard forward and look at the rear connector rail for any metal stress, or bent connecting couplers or signs of the rear rail connector (flat piece between rear rail) being bent and possibly bent back. I have not seen so much usage on a rear rail where tolerances opened to the point the standard would not lock, but thats so far. Make sure to check the inside rail guides. I have seen some with screws missing. In fact I have seen many Graphics with screws missing. Also rack the rail all the way in and pull the front standard off the front of the rails hold it up at an angle and look at the cams to see if there is alot of lubrication which should also show on the rails. Toggle the lock on and off. You can force anything with heavy hands, especially if lubricated with something really slick. While you have it off use a flashlight to check for missing or loose screws thru the rear rail guides. If the cover is bent looking edgewise at it from the front, it was racked or it's not tight inside. Racked will show when closed! If you can wiggle the front cover it's probably the rear guide screws missing or not tightened. Check the cover hinge for straightness. Make sure also that the slotted guide supports inside that the body that the beds arms move in are screwed down tight and the arms are straight and not bent back into place. You can replace the front cover bed assembly easy enough. That would probably solve all your problems. Leftover parts from a replacement can be sold if good.

[engl]

Thanks to all who have replied, it has been very helpful!

To Mr. Crider, I will look closer at the inner rails tomorrow, thanks for the tip! Im fairly sure the two rail guides look different in both shape and color, one is black and one unpainted. Is this original, or the result of DYI repair work?

I also realized Im asking for advice about which camera to pick without making a decent list of my needs, so here goes:

1. Folds small and sets up quickly, low weight also a plus
2. Rigid and accurate, no problems to get the front standard parallel to the GG/film
3. As many movements as possible, rise and front tilt being most important, swing second
4. Usable with wide lenses, the wider the better, I hope to get a 75mm someday

I live in Sweden so I might be able to get decent shipping rates from UK. The MPP seems very interesting, with lots of movement including back movement, linked inner rails, side tripod hole (making it possible to invert the camera for fall), good build quality, rotating back. The VIII seems killer but the price is too high for me, I might be able to find an affordable VII. Id have to use back movements or side tripod hole for front tilt though. Apparently also very heavy.

[BradS]

....
1. Folds small and sets up quickly, low weight also a plus
2. Rigid and accurate, no problems to get the front standard parallel to the GG/film
3. As many movements as possible, rise and front tilt being most important, swing second
4. Usable with wide lenses, the wider the better, I hope to get a 75mm someday


A Crown Graphic (that wasn't run over by a garbage truck) would #1 & #2 However, #3 & #4 pretty much eliminate the Crown Graphic from consideration. (?)

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Might look for a Meridian 45B.

[Mark Woods]

Hey Dan, thanks for the info. I went and looked at it, and indeed it says Speed Graphic on the lens board slide. I love the little camera and have adapted it with a roll film back and use it fairly often. I think of it as a sketch pad when I'm out and about and thinking of going back with one of my big cameras.

[engl]

A Crown Graphic (that wasn't run over by a garbage truck) would #1 & #2 However, #3 & #4 pretty much eliminate the Crown Graphic from consideration. (?)

As for point 4#, usage with wide angle lenses, the Crown seems very well off compared to the competition. 75mm lens on flat board, no problem fitting wide lenses with big rear elements through the lens board hole, linked inner rails for focusing, and it does some movements inside the box with the wire finder removed.

As for point #3, movements, that indeed seems like the weakness of the Crown compared to the Super/Pressman/B&J Press/MPP/Meridian. Still, I dont think it is bad enough to remove it from consideration. It has decent amount of rise, the most important movement for me, and it can be inverted to get fall instead (and front tilt). The front standard can be reversed for front tilt (I would not use drop bed for fall anyway, Id invert the camera). The biggest problem is that while many movements can be coerced out of the Crown, they are only available by restricting other movements or forcing choice of landscape/portrait/inverted orientation.

If I won the lottery I might buy the Walker Titan XL 4x5, but until then I need the best field camera stand-in that 200-400$ will buy me. That includes compromises, so Im not counting the Crown out due to the movement issues. All the cameras Im looking at disappoints on at least one of the items in my list.

[Wayne Crider]

I'm fairly sure the two rail guides look different in both shape and color, one is black and one unpainted. Is this original, or the result of DYI repair work?



It was a replacement repair. You must be talking the cover guide rails? I can't speak as to the differences between what you have, and I'm not going to dig out all my buried guide rails to compare them, but it's entirely possible that they could be different heights. That would cause the front standard to pitch to one side very very slightly. A pocket machinist ruler would provide the answer for your outer guide rails.
There are shims under the guide rails that are inside the body. If one of the front cover guide rails is the wrong height, you would have a little bit of a hard time racking the rails in and out of the body. You would feel a binding resistance and see chipped top end edges on the guide rails.

If your interested in wide angle only, the Graphic would be a good platform to build off of. A short wood extension add to the front as a replacement for the cover would provide enough length for most wide angle focusing. You could fix the rail or re-install the front focusing gear rod. One project I saw had half the top hinged so it would fold back for rise. The only thing you might need would be rear movements and probably the MPP might be better for that or for more money I believe a Tech III or a step up to the IV.

[BradS]

As for point 4#, usage with wide angle lenses, the Crown seems very well off compared to the competition. 75mm lens on flat board, no problem fitting wide lenses with big rear elements through the lens board hole, linked inner rails for focusing, and it does some movements inside the box with the wire finder removed.


Which sounds pretty great until you actually try it. I have and it isn't. Anytime you have to drop the bed on a Crown...you're in for a leeson in frustration. Yes, it can be used with a 90mm Super Angulon and even some 75mm lenses but, it is no walk in the park. This is probably why they didn't link the front and rear rails on the later Supers. It just isn't that useful and linked is actually is worse than unlinked when you can get the lens on the main rails.



If I won the lottery I might buy the Walker Titan XL 4x5, but until then I need the best field camera stand-in that 200-400$ will buy me. That includes compromises, so I'm not counting the Crown out due to the movement issues. All the cameras I'm looking at disappoints on at least one of the items in my list.

Mike Walker makes some of the best cameras I have ever seen. I have a Titan 45SF. It is wonderful. You have a very smart approach to this. Every view camera is a compromise. The walkers have fantastic build quality, dimensional stability, field practicality and just are extraordinarily well designed but they are kinda heavy and ugly.

Good luck in your search. You might also consider the Toyo 45CF - which is kinda like a plastic modern version of the crown graphic (sans rangefinder). It folds like the crown where as the other Toyo field cameras fold up like...well, they do that trapeze artist thing with the front standard.

[Dan Fromm]

Which sounds pretty great until you actually try it. I have and it isn't. Anytime you have to drop the bed on a Crown...you're in for a leeson in frustration. Yes, it can be used with a 90mm Super Angulon and even some 75mm lenses but, it is no walk in the park. This is probably why they didn't link the front and rear rails on the later Supers. It just isn't that useful and linked is actually is worse than unlinked when you can get the lens on the main rails.

<snip>



Brad, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly about this.

The shortest lens that doesn't require a dropped bed on a 2x3 Century Graphic (not 4x5, but 2x3 Graphics work just like 4x5s) is around 80 mm. In my case, 80/6.3 WF Ektar. I use shorter lenses, down to a 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon on my humble Century, all with dropped bed. A few -- 58/5.6 Grandagon, 60/5.6 Hexanon, 65/8 Ilex -- are slightly problematic because they make infinity near or on the bed's hinge; I use them on my 2x3 Speed Graphic instead. My 2x3 Speed's bed also has to be dropped with lenses shorter than around 80 mm; the shortest lens I have for it is a 1.75"/2.8 Elcan in barrel.

On the whole I find the Pacemaker Graphics' linked bed rails a godsend. I just set the lens up roughly -- generally don't need all of the focusing travel so focusing through infinity isn't a problem -- and focus. No fuss.

I can't imagine what problems you've encountered.

engl, having two Pacemaker Graphics, a Crown (remember, a Century is essentially a 2x3 Crown) and a Speed can make better sense than having just one. The Crown for short lenses in shutter, the Speed for lenses too long for the Crown and for lenses in barrel.

To help you think about which lenses can be used on a 4x5 Crown but not on a 4x5 Speed, the two cameras' minimum flange-to-film distances are, respectively, 52.4 and 66.7 mm.

Cheers,

Dan

[BradS]

Brad, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly about this.

The shortest lens that doesn't require a dropped bed on a 2x3 Century Graphic (not 4x5, but 2x3 Graphics work just like 4x5s) is around 80 mm. In my case, 80/6.3 WF Ektar. I use shorter lenses, down to a 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon on my humble Century, all with dropped bed. A few -- 58/5.6 Grandagon, 60/5.6 Hexanon, 65/8 Ilex -- are slightly problematic because they make infinity near or on the bed's hinge; I use them on my 2x3 Speed Graphic instead. My 2x3 Speed's bed also has to be dropped with lenses shorter than around 80 mm; the shortest lens I have for it is a 1.75"/2.8 Elcan in barrel.

On the whole I find the Pacemaker Graphics' linked bed rails a godsend. I just set the lens up roughly -- generally don't need all of the focusing travel so focusing through infinity isn't a problem -- and focus. No fuss.

I can't imagine what problems you've encountered.

engl, having two Pacemaker Graphics, a Crown (remember, a Century is essentially a 2x3 Crown) and a Speed can make better sense than having just one. The Crown for short lenses in shutter, the Speed for lenses too long for the Crown and for lenses in barrel.

To help you think about which lenses can be used on a 4x5 Crown but not on a 4x5 Speed, the two cameras' minimum flange-to-film distances are, respectively, 52.4 and 66.7 mm.

Cheers,

Dan

Dan, I am, of course, only referring only to the 4x5 Crown Graphic (deja-vu?). You'll have to agree that although the little 2x3 Graphics "work the same as" the 4x5....they are definitely smaller and therefore have different dimensions. Obviously, the bed on the 4x5 is longer than the bed on the 2x3...(see where I'm going with this?) So, while one may not need to drop the bed with a 90mm lens on the little graphic, one may or may not need to with the 4x5 (depends on the flange focal length of the lens). I've tried several 75mm lenses on the 4x5 Crown Graphics and I have not found one 75mm lens that isn't a pain to use with the 4x5. Many want to focus at infinity right on the hinge. I almost think that a 65mm lens would be easier to use with the 4x5 Crown (I've never tried as I do not have a 65mm lens that covers) . It would be all the way in the box and there being a relative surplus of DOF, the focus would not be as critical.

[Frank Petronio]

I once had a 4x5 Crown Graphic that I used with a flat board-mounted 75/6.8 Grandagon-N (a modern design) and it was great. I wouldn't drop the bed so instead I'd just crop out the small portion of the bed that would show in the edge of the photo. No biggie and once you start down the road of making those moral compromises the rest of your life gets a lot easier too!

Leaving the bed level makes life easier too. And not even worrying about tilts or other movements with wide angles because you rarely need them.... the amount of tilt you might want is so ridiculously shallow so why bother?

The best part is that the camera would fold up with the lens attached. I could also get a 180/5.6 Sironar-N (with a Copal 1) to close and latch.

Leaving the lens mounted on the camera is a really important feature to me, it makes carrying a lot better. So for wide angles, the 4x5 Crown wins for me.

[BradS]

I once had a 4x5 Crown Graphic that I used with a flat board-mounted 75/6.8 Grandagon-N (a modern design) and it was great. I wouldn't drop the bed so instead I'd just crop out the small portion of the bed that would show in the edge of the photo. No biggie and once you start down the road of making those moral compromises the rest of your life gets a lot easier too!

The best part is that the camera would fold up with the lens attached. I could also get a 180/5.6 Sironar-N (with a Copal 1) to close and latch.

Leaving the lens mounted on the camera is a really important feature to me, it makes carrying a lot better.

Exactly what I ended up doing....only exception is that my long lens was a 210mm Geronar...

I have since pretty much thrown in the towel on anything but the standard 135mm Optar on the Crown Graphic though. The stock lens is good enough.

[Dan Fromm]

Brad, thanks for the reply. As I pointed out, some of my lenses make infininity on or near the hinge. This is what bothered you. There's a simple solution, position the lens on the rails to focus through infinity, i.e., behind the hinge, then rack it forwards to focus at or closer than infinity. With shorter lenses there's adequate focusing travel.

Re comparison between 2x3 and 4x5, I use much shorter lenses with dropped bed than you did. 35, 38, 47, 58, 60, 65.

[rfesk]

Re: 4X5 I preseently own a Busch Pressman, Crown Graphic (top rangefinder model), Meridian 45B, B&J Presss and a Beseler 4X5.

All have these cameras have their plusses and minuses. On the whole, based on size and rigidity, I like the Busch Pressman the best and will be selling the rest.

The Pressman is fitted with the Nikon 90/8, Sironar-N 135, and a 240mm Fujinon A. All modern lenses in their focal length - so the lensboard limitation is not so bad. In fact I have a Kodak 100/6.3 Widefield and a Kodak 203/7.7 Ektar which will fold up in the camera as will the Sironar-N 135.

The Meridian is the most flexible design for the tripod because of the rear focusing mechanism and front swing and the Crown Graphic with the top rangefinder is the fastest to use handheld.

Just my experience.

[engl]

Thanks to all who have replied!

To Mr.Crider, the outer rails are indeed of somewhat different height. Also, Im not able to extend the outer rails longer than about 2cm longer than the bed. This is due to the bed not being perpendicular to the body, so the inner rails hit the bed. This probably explains why the inner rail guides have eventually become loose (they get pushed upwards as the rails are extended).

Maybe I should forget about the outer rails on my Crown, and just try to make the inner rails sturdy and flat. That would give me one camera for wide angles (in the future, I dont own any yet), and Id get more options for another camera purchase.

As for what camera to get, Ive now looked more into the Meridian 45B, and it seems like a very good camera, similar to the MPP, and available at similar prices.

I also looked at the Toyo 45CF. It seems fairly good, but outside my budget. I am also a bit worried about the quality. If I buy a press camera, Ill have something potentially useful forever (more or less), especially if I get one with a rangefinder. Also, the Shen Hao cameras are in the same price class and seem more attractive to me.

I will be on the lookout for the Super, B&J Press, Pressman D, MPP mk7-8 and Meridian 45B. I have a hard time ordering these cameras by preference based on what I know now. If either one comes along in very good condition I might buy it. Im feeling a slight preference for the technical type cameras (MPP and Meridian) since Im buying it for tripod use. Weight and availability are issues with these though...

[engl]

I found a Wista 45 at a camera shop, at a price within my budget. Anyone with comments about the quality of that camera? Im having a hard time finding much information. It was sold only as Wista 45, so I guess it is one of the earlier versions lacking swing. It also did not seem to have linked inner rails.

Im probably going to pass on it unless it is known to be of exceptional quality.

[Frank Petronio]

Quality is going to be apparent and subjective, but in general the metal Wistas are held in high esteem, I've never heard a complaint about their quality. I owned an SP and it was a fine camera, as good as anything.

An expensive Linhof has the best "quality" but at the trade off of weight... cast and machined versus stamped and folded metal. Same for an Ebony, handcrafted from Teak and Titanium.

[BradS]

.....Ebony, handcrafted from Teak and Titanium.

minor correction...Ebony cameras are, of course, made of ebony wood (some are mahogany).

[engl]

Thanks for your reply, it seems to be well regarded.

I just realized another variable to add to this: which lenses can fit inside the camera closed?

I realized this when reading about the Wista 45, apparently very few lenses can left mounted with this camera. The MPP also looks like it might have issues. The Meridian and Super Graphic seem spacious.

The Wista 45 is available at 270$ in what looked like fairly good condition. The store is reputable and often has outstanding offers. From what I read the camera has good front movements except for swing (older models), good wide angle capabilities for its class, sturdy yet not excessively heavy and a whole lot younger than the competition. The store opens again on Friday and I have a feeling I might buy this camera if condition and camera operation pleases me.

[Bill_1856]

Thanks for your reply, it seems to be well regarded.

I just realized another variable to add to this: which lenses can fit inside the camera closed?

I realized this when reading about the Wista 45, apparently very few lenses can left mounted with this camera. The MPP also looks like it might have issues. The Meridian and Super Graphic seem spacious.

The Wista 45 is available at 270$ in what looked like fairly good condition. The store is reputable and often has outstanding offers. From what I read the camera has good front movements except for swing (older models), good wide angle capabilities for its class, sturdy yet not excessively heavy and a whole lot younger than the competition. The store opens again on Friday and I have a feeling I might buy this camera if condition and camera operation pleases me.

Since you're close enough to visit the store, I recommend that you RENT the camera, lens, tripod, etc, before buying.

[Frank Petronio]

For $270 a functional Wista is a bargain.

Check the seams of the bellows on any of these older cameras, sometimes they delaminate or get sticky with age. Also where they attach to the front and rear frames. Everything else you check should be more obvious common sense, like movements grinding, cracked ground glass, or obvious defects.

Generally a common modern Schneider-Fuji-Nikkor-Rodenstock (the big 4) 135-150mm lens in a Copal 0 shutter will fold up into the Wistas. Anything in the Copal 0 that doesn't extend too far or get larger than a 52mm filter thread (some Schneider 150s are 58mm). I think the Crowns are the largest capacity-wise.

[engl]

Id like to update this saying that I finally settled on the MPP mk7. I bought the camera from the UK which saves me paying 27% VAT+customs if buying from outside of Europe. Still the price came to 450$, slightly over what I had set as my price range (200-400$). There were others selling cheaper but this one had a good seller, condition looked good and included a roll film back.

So far I love it, this feels way ahead of the Crown. The MPP seems better built, with good rigidity, smoothness and ease of operation.

There are more movements and they are much easier to use. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the rise was geared, and a huge 60mm or so. Shift is also geared, perhaps +/- 20mm, but gets limited to only a few mm when the lens is close to the bed hinges. Easy to use/reset backward tilt, but no forward tilt. Swing is very nice, also translating to forward/backward tilt when using the side tripod hole. Revolving international back, finally!

I look forward to learning to use back movements, even if I realize those are much more easily executed on some other cameras. Seem like a handy thing to have once in a while, especially for combining back tilt and front rise to give the same effect as front standard forward tilt.

There are some things that could be better:
- The bellows have good extension, 430mm or so. However, with the tripod socket on the body, the lens stability is not very good when actually using all of it.
- Wide angle lens use could be easier. The long bellows limit movement, the gap between body and bed tracks is rather long and the front standard does not lock firmly when halfway onto tracks. Different combinations of focal lengths, flat/cone/recessed board and back/bed position give different results, so Im sure Ill find something that works out if I buy a wide lens. 65mm, inner rails, flat board, no movements might be the easiest one.
- The back moves somewhat when locking down the rods. Im not sure if this will be an issue.
- It is heavy, camera alone at 3.1kg.
- Does not fold with my Fujinon NW-125/5.6 inside.

I have not actually taken any pictures with it yet, so the above is just the impression of handling the camera and "dry shooting" all day, only previous experience being the Crown. If I remember, Ill report back again after having used the camera for a while. Im sure there is some issue or annoyance that I have not found yet.

[rjmeyer314]

I've never had a Crown Graphic, but I've had a Super Graphic since around 1980, and more recently I've also added a few Speed Graphics (in 2x3,3x4,4x5, and 5x7) to the mix. The Super has been my most used camera for most of the time I've had it. I mainly shoot landscapes, with a few portraits thrown in. I've been pleased with the quality of the camera. I've never needed any kind of repair in 30 years. My only complaint is the difficulty in finding rangefinder cams in other focal lengths. However, I've found cams for most of my lenses, and for those I don't have I focus using the ground glass. I prefer the rangefinder to get good focus, especially in low light scenes.