Choosing my first 4x5: please help!

[b.cipolla]

Hey everyone. I've been shooting 4x5 for sometime but I recently graduated from school and do not have access to the university's equipment anymore, so I am looking to buy a camera of my own. After doing research for a while, I have wound up looking at mainly Wista, Wisner, and most recently, Chamonix. Mainly, I want to get a field camera that is sturdy and has the most movements for less than $1,000. I shoot mainly fine art still lives, which I often find myself in fairly difficult positions when I shoot them, so I want a camera that is versatile. I recently discovered the Chamonix cameras and got very excited about them but I want to make sure that I am making a good decision. The Wista's and Wisner's are in the same price range used on Ebay, but they appear to be bulkier and a little less durable. Wista's and Wisner's appear to have more movements on the rear standard in comparison to the Chamonix, but not by much. What do you think? Thanks for the input!

[Gem Singer]

Look at the "For Sale" section of this forum.

Two days ago, John Wilton listed a Wisner 4X5 tech field camera for sale at a very reasonable price.

This is an opportunity to purchase a $1500 camera for less than 1/2 of that price.

The Wisner is slightly bulkier, but it is a well built and a better camera for your needs than a Chamonix or a Wista.

[John Kasaian]

Your subject is fine art still life? Why not use a monorail? You can buy an excellent Calumet 400 series or Graphic View for far less than a field camera (I've seen them for less than $200)

[Bob McCarthy]

I agree with John. For the price of a field camera, you can buy a used Sinar P and own the still life dream setup.

Or save money and buy a excellent Sinar F or Omega for a couple hundred, the difference you can put towards lenses. Far more flexible as far as movements, especially at the rear.

Look at Gemsingers Omega. He sold an Omega to Wil, Wil decided digital was the path for him, Gem I understand took it back.

Your probably a better candidate.

No decision, but I have a clean as a whistle Sinar F I haven't used in quite a while. I might concider selling if you can't find what you want from others or Gem.

bob

[Gem Singer]

Bob, the OP stated that he wants to get a sturdy field camera, a light weight wooden folding flatbed.

He prefers a camera like the Chamonix.

That rules out bulky, heavier weight, non-folding monorails.

Besides, my Toyo/Omega is not for sale.

[b.cipolla]

Exactly, right Gem. I've used monorail cameras before for my work but I really prefer field cameras. When I say "still life" it's because I don't really have any other term to classify it as. It really is a variety of subject matter from interiors to exteriors. That's why I want something compact and versatile. So you think I'm better off looking around for a reasonably priced Wisner as opposed to a Chamonix?

[Gem Singer]

Yes.

Check out John Wilton's Wisner for sale on this forum.

Although not as compact, it beats the Chamonix for build quality, movement capability, and price.

[Bill_1856]

Look at the Busch Pressmaster model D as a good first 4x5 camera.

[Lachlan 717]

Not as compact as the Chamonix, and not a folding design, but the Shen Hao XPO has way more functionality. Greater bellow range, accepts Sinar shutters and bag bellows and will handle bigger lenses. I had a 3kg+ lens mounted in a lens iris with a Sinar shutter on mine yesterday.

[James_Spain]

I recently discovered the Chamonix cameras and got very excited about them but I want to make sure that I am making a good decision. The Wista's and Wisner's are in the same price range used on Ebay, but they appear to be bulkier and a little less durable. Wista's and Wisner's appear to have more movements on the rear standard in comparison to the Chamonix, but not by much. What do you think? Thanks for the input!

I have similar problem deciding but decide I like Wista. My Wista is very durable and sturdy - better than the Chamonix front which screws on and fix at one point only. The Wista back can swing and tilt and shift but no rise. Bellows come off to fit bigger wideangle lens. Front has tilt and rise and swing.

Chamonix - only combined back swing with shift not independent. The front is hard in use with rise and tilt using same key. Bellows do not come off. Lighter - yes. But front shakes more. The Wista is better made.

[Bob McCarthy]

Bob, the OP stated that he wants to get a sturdy field camera, a light weight wooden folding flatbed.

He prefers a camera like the Chamonix.

That rules out bulky, heavier weight, non-folding monorails.

Besides, my Toyo/Omega is not for sale.

Gem, I can read. But he also stated he shot fine art still life. add that to the plea about buying a first camera, I thought it was useful.

Maybe not.

So you're keeping the Omega. Ok, thought I was helping.

bob

[stevebrot]

I have similar problem deciding but decide I like Wista. My Wista is very durable and sturdy - better than the Chamonix front which screws on and fix at one point only. The Wista back can swing and tilt and shift but no rise. Bellows come off to fit bigger wideangle lens. Front has tilt and rise and swing.

Chamonix - only combined back swing with shift not independent. The front is hard in use with rise and tilt using same key. Bellows do not come off. Lighter - yes. But front shakes more. The Wista is better made.

I own a Chamonix 045N-2 and can add a little bit on your comments. I have not handled a Wista and can not compare its build quality, but I can clarify that the front standard on a Chamonix is anything but fixed at a single position relative to the back. The front may be placed in any of five positions. Finer adjustment to zero the camera for infinity focus may be done using the generous fore-aft slide available for the rear standard. Both are visible in this image from the Chamonix Web site:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/_images/045N2002.jpg

The bellows on the Chamonix 045N-2 is easily removable without tools. The front is secured by a slide clamp and the rear by two thumb-wheels. The so-called universal bellows is supposed to support ultra-wide angle lenses without resorting to a bag bellows. I have not been able to substantiate that claim for lack of a short lens, but can say that it nicely accommodates my Caltar-NII 90/6.8 to its limit of coverage.

While the 045N-2 supports generous rear swing, it does not feature rear shift. This is a change from its predecessor, the 045N-1.

While rise and tilt on the front are secured with the same set of knobs, I have not found it difficult to manage the two if you adjust and secure the rise first. Tilt may then be done without disturbing the rise adjustment by releasing two catches and adjusting the tilt using gentle finger pressure. It is difficult to explain why this works, except to say that there it takes less friction to secure the vertical adjustment than the tilt. Additional tightening may be applied if needed. Time will tell whether this sequence will continue to work well as the parts wear with use.

Front swing and shift, IMHO, is the weakest design point on the 045N-2. While the assembly is not flimsy, it is relatively easy to bump the front swing from its zero point. There is no physical stop. Ditto for front shift. The two use a common tightener and zero alignment is done by visually matching index marks on the standard with points on the focus plate. It is difficult to do a pure front shift without introducing a degree of swing. Correction requires a trip to the front of the camera. Back-and-forth. The positive trade-off to this design is generous shift and swing. So far, it has not be a huge issue in the field.

As to which camera has the shakier front...I don't have access to a Wista, so I can't say. I did have an opportunity to buy the similar Zone VI at a local shop, but opted for the Chamonix based on build. Perhaps the next time you are in the Portland, Oregon area you can drop by and we can do a head to head comparison. ;)

In regards to the OP...as noted in the other comments, unless you really like the lighter weight and design features of the Chamonix or other wooden field camera, there may be other used options that will work well for less money.


Steve

[b.cipolla]

wow thanks for all the info steve. unfortunately, i don't have access to the sale forum yet. does anyone know of any wisner technical camera that are going for a good price on there?

[shadowleaves]

While the 045N-2 supports generous rear swing, it does not feature rear shift. This is a change from its predecessor, the 045N-1.
Steve

045n-1 doesn't have rear shift either. Only rear swing and tilt.

[stevebrot]

045n-1 doesn't have rear shift either. Only rear swing and tilt.

You are correct...sorry for the confusion. Hopefully I did not add too much to the cloud of erroneous information on the Web.


Steve

[stevebrot]

wow thanks for all the info steve. unfortunately, i don't have access to the sale forum yet. does anyone know of any wisner technical camera that are going for a good price on there?

The camera is a Wisner Traditional and the seller is John Wilton. You should be able to PM him about the camera from his forum page HERE (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/member.php?u=12314).

As for Wisner Technicals...B&H has a used one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800697998-USE/Wisner.html

There are also a couple on eBay.


Steve

[Ken Lee]

I owned a 4x5 Wisner Technical Field camera for a while. One of its most attractive features was long bellows draw. It allowed me to use a 450mm Fujinon C, and to get closer than 1:1 with my 240 mm lens.

There are only a few field cameras which offer that much extension. Others include the Ebony and Canham, but they are positioned at a higher price point, and rarely appear in the used market.

[rugenius]

We own a Chamonix 045N-1 for a little over a year now. We started with, and typically use a 6x12 cm roll back most of the time. This is a transition from med format to large format for us. The rollback provides a robust experimental platform in transition to the full frame of 4x5 inch.

The camera has enough movement to adapt to most any situation I've thrown at it. Some photos seem to defy physics by being able to keep most everything in focus from a few feet away to infinity and side to side. In short, I couldn't understand the need for more movement especially as a novice to large format...
We have only used 3 lenses so far, 135mm Xenotar press, 150mm Fujinon, 210mm Schneider. The problems with wide angle-short focal length lens focus offset have not been a problem for me yet. Evidently there are numerous users that dislike the Fresnel plate on the 045N-1.

Build quality? This camera is pretty darned solid IMHO. It's a very light field camera. We purchased an ultra-light Feisol traveler tripod with Photo-Clam ball head. These components, while very light, offer sturdy and easy positioning of the camera in a multiple of field situations, notably macro work too. We use a photo-backpack with internal velcro-pouches for the equipment to stabilize the tripod during use. The pack hangs from a hook on the bottom of the center stand.

Anyway, you should consider the entire investment carefully.
The camera alone will not get you to a field worthy photographic state.
Example,... everything said, the cost breakdown for our setup was as follows:

Camera, used, with lens boards and universal bellows = $700
Lenses, used, VG-EX cond =$50 +$200 + $250 = $500
Photobackpacker P2 and accs = $350
Feisol Traveller Tripod and accs = $450
Photoclam ball head = $200
Roll back 6x12 Horseman, used, = $350

Total cost: $2550, field weight approx 6.6 lbs including camera, tripod, ball head, and a light weight lens.
Tack on weight for film back of choice...

I hope this info is useful from one LF novice to another.:)

Bill

[stevebrot]

We own a Chamonix 045N-1 for a little over a year now. We started with, and typically use a 6x12 cm roll back most of the time. This is a transition from med format to large format for us. The rollback provides a robust experimental platform in transition to the full frame of 4x5 inch...


Ditto for me except that I have historically shot 35mm.



...Anyway, you should consider the entire investment carefully.
The camera alone will not get you to a field worthy photographic state.
Example,... everything said, the cost breakdown for our setup was as follows:

Camera, used, with lens boards and universal bellows = $700
Lenses, used, VG-EX cond =$50 +$200 + $250 = $500
Photobackpacker P2 and accs = $350
Feisol Traveller Tripod and accs = $450
Photoclam ball head = $200
Roll back 6x12 Horseman, used, = $350

Total cost: $2550, field weight approx 6.6 lbs including camera, tripod, ball head, and a light weight lens.
Tack on weight for film back of choice...



I can affirm that the camera purchase is only the beginning of expense. As has been pointed out on other threads, LF does not have to be a rich man's realm. However, there is plenty of space for unanticipated expense. My totals are about the same as yours, but for different stuff.

Chamonix 045N-2 with folding viewer + shipping: $901
Caltar II-N 150/5.6 (used): $249
Caltar II-N 90/6.8 (used): $300
12 film holders (used): $25
2 Bromwell lens boards: $78
2 Hakuba cable release: $28
Linhoff Super-Rollex 6x7 roll film holder (used): $172
Calumet C2 6x7 roll film holder (used): $50
Calumet C2N 6x7 roll film holder (used): $115
Bogen 3028 tripod head (used): $15
Fortunately, I already owned a suitable tripod. (whew!)

Cost on camera side of things: $1923

On the processing end:
Generic plastic daylight processing tank for "taco" method: $20
Nikor 120 SS processing tank and real (used): $5
Epson V700 scanner: $536 (ouch!)

Still needed, but purchases are on hold:
Dark cloth
4x loupe (my 8x Agfa loupe is a little too strong)
Changing bag
Better backpack

At this point, I am tired of spending money on this project and am thinking that maybe I should turn pro just to support my habit! Just to confirm that I know where the luxury items lie. Yes, could have made do with only one roll film holder. As it is, I take all three into the field (one with Ektar 100 and the other two with Acros 100) and generally use them all. I could also have waited on the wide angle lens. The combination is about $500 potential savings right there.


Steve

[ki6mf]

Check out KEH.com and look for large format folding cameras. Currently Press Folding cameras start at about $200. I don't currently see any used field cameras listed but have seen them in the $5-600 range. New Chamonix and Shen Hao start at $650-700. and it used prices go up from there. A Rail camera has same functionality except for folding up for less $. They all shoot the same (movements excepted)

[rugenius]

Yep, I forgot two of the most important tools,...

(1) A magnifying loupe!
New $70 at 1/2 price?
I am using a Pentax aspherical 5.5X photo loupe made for med format film inspection.
Bulky but just about excellent for seeing wide sections of the taking view.
Rumor is Pentax will discontinue the manufacture of photo loupes.
(2) A dark cloth!!
Can't really take photos without one... mine is Velcro seamed and sort of Gore-tex like fabric and it came with the camera.

Cheers,

Bill

[b.cipolla]

Thanks again for all the info guys. I still cannot gain access to John Wilton page. Anyone know of any other way to contact him? Also, after reading what you all had to say, I'm in between a Wisner Technical and a Chamonix. Any final words of persuasion as to which one I should get? It will probably come down to which one I can find for cheaper at this point.

[David Aimone]

Steve,

You've done it on the cheap! Good shopping...

I'm afraid to add up the stuff I bought after the Chamonix 045n-2!

David


Ditto for me except that I have historically shot 35mm.



I can affirm that the camera purchase is only the beginning of expense. As has been pointed out on other threads, LF does not have to be a rich man's realm. However, there is plenty of space for unanticipated expense. My totals are about the same as yours, but for different stuff.

Chamonix 045N-2 with folding viewer + shipping: $901
Caltar II-N 150/5.6 (used): $249
Caltar II-N 90/6.8 (used): $300
12 film holders (used): $25
2 Bromwell lens boards: $78
2 Hakuba cable release: $28
Linhoff Super-Rollex 6x7 roll film holder (used): $172
Calumet C2 6x7 roll film holder (used): $50
Calumet C2N 6x7 roll film holder (used): $115
Bogen 3028 tripod head (used): $15
Fortunately, I already owned a suitable tripod. (whew!)

Cost on camera side of things: $1923

On the processing end:
Generic plastic daylight processing tank for "taco" method: $20
Nikor 120 SS processing tank and real (used): $5
Epson V700 scanner: $536 (ouch!)

Still needed, but purchases are on hold:
Dark cloth
4x loupe (my 8x Agfa loupe is a little too strong)
Changing bag
Better backpack

At this point, I am tired of spending money on this project and am thinking that maybe I should turn pro just to support my habit! Just to confirm that I know where the luxury items lie. Yes, could have made do with only one roll film holder. As it is, I take all three into the field (one with Ektar 100 and the other two with Acros 100) and generally use them all. I could also have waited on the wide angle lens. The combination is about $500 potential savings right there.


Steve

[ki6mf]

For the price of a used Wisner you can get new Shen Hao or Chamonix!

[Frank Petronio]

Well I am fluffing here but I think a >$400 Arca-Swiss might be in order. It's a monorail but smaller and lighter than most, pack friendly. And, unlike these expensive wooden toy boxes made from toothpick wood, it is made from this amazing substance called "metal". Not to mention unlimited XYZ movements front and back and, that in use, it is far more rigid than any camera which folds or can burn.

Also, you might want to search "Wisner" on this forum before you leap at one of those....

[David Aimone]

I've owned the Chamonix 045n-2 since April. I'm a noob, but I love it.

There is certainly no "toothpick" construction here. It's all metal, carbon fiber and (mine) hardwood teak. It's pretty darn stable, FWIW.

Good luck with whatever you decide on...
;)

[stevebrot]

Well I am fluffing here but I think a >$400 Arca-Swiss might be in order...

Frank, did you slip a zero on the Arca-Swiss price? ;) The last time I checked, they were priced somewhere in the same neighborhood as an Ebony.


Steve

(I wish there were an emoticon for "irony"...)

[Frank Petronio]

Well I was talking about the vintage Arca-Swiss C I have in the classifieds. They sell for under $500. But a more recent $800 Arca-Swiss Discovery is a great value too.

I know I am horrible, hawking my old camera while calling your wooden beauties toothpicks. But, while I may be an obnoxious jerk, the innocent camera is still a worthy contender!

[stevebrot]

Well I was talking about the vintage Arca-Swiss C I have in the classifieds. They sell for under $500. But a more recent $800 Arca-Swiss Discovery is a great value too.

I know I am horrible, hawking my old camera while calling your wooden beauties toothpicks. But, while I may be an obnoxious jerk, the innocent camera is still a worthy contender!

:D :D :D :D

Steve

(Looked at your ad for the camera...too bad I am not in the market...appreciate your female sales assistants...)

[rugenius]

The genius of Petrino does in press as to what we aspire to do in most any format...
Humble,... yet tack on.

Check out the suggestions and make a stab at it.
All things considered, you can't go wrong with all the feedback thus far.

IMHO,
Bill

[b.cipolla]

Thanks to whoever contacted John for me!

[Rakesh Malik]

Frank, did you slip a zero on the Arca-Swiss price? ;) The last time I checked, they were priced somewhere in the same neighborhood as an Ebony.


Normally, they are, but older models (with the bigger format frames) seem to below value to me:
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3425

And Badger has great customer service, plus they're honest with their ratings on used stuff... I've bought a few used items from them over the years, including some lenses and even an Arca F-Compact (tax refund!) that looked brand new when I received it.

[stevebrot]

Thanks to whoever contacted John for me!

My pleasure...<takes bow>


Steve