Petzval Lens Use

[rguinter]

Greetings everyone. I recently purchased a nice Petzval type lens and, having no experience with these, I thought I would ask for some basic advice on how they are typically used.

Mine is mounted in a magic lantern housing. Very nice and clean and the worm gear focusing mechanism functions nicely.

It doesn't have a mounting ring but the flange threads are fine and I forsee no difficulty in getting it mounted to an appropriate lensboard.

After that though, my thoughts about actually using the lens for photos without a shutter has me wondering a bit.

I suspect many use these lenses with collodion plates which require long exposures. Which is easily done with a lens cap, taking it on and off for the required number of seconds, and I have used this technique over the years with a few LF lenses where the bulb setting wasn't working properly. So I'm wondering if this is the basic exposure technique most use.

Or preferrably, does anyone know of some type of shutter mechanism that could be adapted to work with the lens. If so this would be an interesting solution since one of my thoughts for possible use of the lens would be with one of my favorite fast films.

Suggestions and thoughts to help me learn a bit about these lenses and their use would be welcome. Cheers. Bob G.

[David Aimone]

Bob,

I can't help, but I can say I'm in the same boat. Just bought the same general kind of lens from someone here, and will take possession in a week or so. I was wondering about the same questions. In the beginning, I was going to try lower lighting and the slowest film I can find! And something like a lens cap.

It will be interesting to see how/what you do with it, and I'll report back here when there is something to tell... :rolleyes:

[Steven Tribe]

There is a lot on this subject in past posts - quite recently, too. Choice of a solution depends on how many lenses (sizes) you are likely to buy and the size of your lens board.

Key words are:
Copal Sinar shutters.
Jim Galli's double darkslide trick.
ND filters.
Thornton-Pickard shutters.
Packard shutters.
Guillotine shutters (antique or new).

[Louis Pacilla]

Hey Fellows

Add to your list of necessary gear, a full set of Neutral Density filters. No matter what speed film you use you will find w/ out the ND filters, Believe it or not you won't get by w/ contrast filter & slow film alone. It's nearly impossible to shoot in most exterior light wide open. You'll wind up giving up & going home. That's my experience anyhow.

you may or may not want to hunt down l a LUC shutter. Mounts on the front of lens can reach a speed of near 50th sec & of course time & bulb. You may be able to front mount a modern shutter if front opening is small enough.

I added a couple of snaps of a luc front mount & a tiny little packard on a #2 Darlot Hemispherical (Rapid Rec)

The a LUC shutter,Sinar shutter Packard shutter none will get the job done w/out ND filters ((( Most of the time)))

I can't stress enough how you will need ND filters to shoot film wide open w/ any shutter I have mentioned

[rguinter]

Louis: Thanks so much for your suggestions. Well of course I have many ND filters in my 25+ year collection so not much of a problem there. I'm actually thinking to try the lens first with B&W infrared film which has become a recent favorite of mine. And the Tiffen 87 filter is very slow... the B&W 092 quite a bit faster but should put the full-sun open-lens time in the right ballpark. Several seconds or so.

But also would like to find a way to use it with another favorite ASA 400 film. Which I'm guessing would be a real bother. Would need a shutter speed around 1/500 or so with the lens wide open to make things reasonable. And no way to do that without some kind of shutter and ND filters combined. Assuming of course the ND filters actually do the job.

Thanks again for the shutter suggestions and I'll keep my eyes open for others. Another poster above suggested a double darkslide technique. The concept sounds interesting and I'll have to check that one out. Cheers. BG

[Jim Galli]

I use an old Kodak 2D 8X10 that has a Packard shutter mounted inside just behind the lens board. Some pics of the installation and other good info is here. (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/Article_About_Packard_Shutters.html)

There probably is no cake and eat it too, but using 100 or 125 asa film and working in full shade or indoors, the packard can usually get the job done. I do venture out in full sun sometimes but my modus operandi then is to pull pull pull in the development. PyroCat HD can cover a multitude of sins. Even so, typically those negs done that way are no good for platinum that needs a fine full range.

[desertrat]

I'm planning some future demented experiments with a Petzval in broad daylight using APHS litho film and an orange filter behind the lens. The litho film is very slow as it is, and an orange filter should slow it down quite a bit more.

I think I can get exposures long enough to use a lens cap.

[Fotoguy20d]

You don't mention the size film you'll be working with. If you're planning on using your petzvals with 4x5, you could pick up a speed graphic.

Dan

[Lachlan 717]

Get a new Shen Hao XPO and a Sinar shutter!!

[Blumine]

If the lens has a Waterhouse slot, what about sticking the ND filters in there?

Blumine

[Lachlan 717]

If the lens has a Waterhouse slot, what about sticking the ND filters in there?

Blumine

Aside from any optical issues this might cause (of which I have no idea), I'd suspect that you'd end up scratching the sh#t out of the filters doing this...

[rguinter]

You don't mention the size film you'll be working with. If you're planning on using your petzvals with 4x5, you could pick up a speed graphic.

Dan


Dan: My plan is to use 4x5 film... or mayby (and just a slight maybe) 120 roll film with my Sinar Panorama film back. All on my Tachihara. Or I could use the old monorail Burke and James I've got stored away.

Over the years I've heard a lot about the old Speed Graphics. But I don't really understand your point. Didn't these old press cameras use copal (or Alphax) shutters very similar to what we use today? Or was there a behind-the-lens shutter system available for use with them. If so that would be an interesting solution which did cross my mind. Cheers and thanks for your thoughts. Bob G.

[rguinter]

If the lens has a Waterhouse slot, what about sticking the ND filters in there?

Blumine

It does have the slot. But the only type of filter that would fit would be gel filters. And as another poster mentioned, Would be difficult to do without scratching them to death. Would have to cut them to the right diameter also which would ruin them for any other use. I do have one of the darkest ND gel filters ever made. Can't remember the number on it without it in hand since I haven't used it in a couple years. But it was 7 or so stops if I recall and I used it a number of times over the years for very long exposures in full daylight.

Bob G.

[cblurton]

Over the years I've heard a lot about the old Speed Graphics. But I don't really understand your point. Didn't these old press cameras use copal (or Alphax) shutters very similar to what we use today? Or was there a behind-the-lens shutter system available for use with them. If so that would be an interesting solution which did cross my mind. Cheers and thanks for your thoughts. Bob G.

The older graphics, e.g., Speed and Pacemaker, have a focal plane shutter just ahead of the film. Check http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-speed-graphic.html for instance.

[rguinter]

The older graphics, e.g., Speed and Pacemaker, have a focal plane shutter just ahead of the film. Check http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-speed-graphic.html for instance.

Thanks for the update. I also found a reference to the focal plane shutter of the old speed graphic in another thread with a google search. So now I understand. As a trained microscopist there are accessories that also are used in the back focal plane where they do not interfere with the image. A great idea and I'm sure the focal plane shutter was a good solution at the time.

I'll probably not go that route though as I don't already own a speed graphic and never thought about looking for one before. And I understand the shutter speed is about 1/25 sec or so at the fastest. Would be helpful but not in the ballpark of where I would like to go.

A few others mentioned the Sinar shutter and I'll look it up to see what their maximum speed is. I could probably fit the thing behind the lensboard of my vintage Burke and James monorail... and make a good excuse to get the old monster out of the closet and dust it off. But knowing Sinar I'm betting the shutter is pricey....

Cheers. Bob G.

[Jim Noel]

I'm planning some future demented experiments with a Petzval in broad daylight using APHS litho film and an orange filter behind the lens. The litho film is very slow as it is, and an orange filter should slow it down quite a bit more.

I think I can get exposures long enough to use a lens cap.

Since lith film is sensitive only to blue light, and red is invisible to it, I suspect you will either get no image or the exposure time will not just be long, it will be exorbitant.
I use the film with some regularity with no filter, especially with wide open soft focus lenses.

[Jim Noel]

I'm planning some future demented experiments with a Petzval in broad daylight using APHS litho film and an orange filter behind the lens. The litho film is very slow as it is, and an orange filter should slow it down quite a bit more.

I think I can get exposures long enough to use a lens cap.

I suspect you will get no exposure. Lith film is blind to red, and even more so to orange, and sees only blue light. Blue and orange are complementary colors.

I use lith film very regularly with my soft focus lenses and have n trouble with good exposures using a Galli Patented Shutter.

[Mark Sawyer]

I'll probably not go that route though as I don't already own a speed graphic and never thought about looking for one before. And I understand the shutter speed is about 1/25 sec or so at the fastest. Would be helpful but not in the ballpark of where I would like to go.


No, a Packard shutter has only the 1/25 and time exposure choices. The Speed Graphic shutter goes from 1/1000 of a second to 1/30. While certainly not "period-correct", it's probably the most practical solution for using a Petzval with modern film, providing your Petzval will fit on the rather small-ish lens board.

[desertrat]

I suspect you will get no exposure. Lith film is blind to red, and even more so to orange, and sees only blue light. Blue and orange are complementary colors.

I use lith film very regularly with my soft focus lenses and have n trouble with good exposures using a Galli Patented Shutter.
APHS litho film is orthochromatic, and should be sensitive to blue, green, and part way into yellow. I have already used it with a yellow filter and it increased my exposure times about 3X. The filter was a Sunpak Y2, and is sort of greenish yellow. I'm basing my experiments on a book I have, published in 1906. It describes how to make an orange filter for taking cloud photographs with the glass plates available then. Most were blue sensitive only, a few were orthochromatic.

[rguinter]

No, a Packard shutter has only the 1/25 and time exposure choices. The Speed Graphic shutter goes from 1/1000 of a second to 1/30. While certainly not "period-correct", it's probably the most practical solution for using a Petzval with modern film, providing your Petzval will fit on the rather small-ish lens board.

Mark: Thanks for the corrected info. I'll have to look into that more closely.

If the speed graphic shutter speeds were that high then the concept would certainly work with the idea I have in mind. Cheers. Bob G.

[earnwkw]

Is there anyway to mount the lens on a modern shutter like copal? total newbie to brass lens.

[Jon Wilson]

It can be done, but you will find it easier to front mounta shutter to a petzval or similar lens. Jon

[earnwkw]

what are the disadvtanges and advantages comparing the 2 methods? thanks

[goamules]

Getting a lens mounted into a shutter will take a machinist, or some glue and duct tape. Putting a shutter in front can be done yourself...with glue and duct tape. Either should cut off the light equally.

[Armin Seeholzer]

The a LUC shutter,Sinar shutter Packard shutter none will get the job done w/out ND filters ((( Most of the time)))

I can't stress enough how you will need ND filters to shoot film wide open w/ any shutter I have mentioned

If you take a 25 ASA Film you are just fine with a 1/60 sec. of a Sinar shutter in my opinion!

Cheers Armin