State of 8x10 film production now & future [Archive]

PaulSchneider

5-Jul-2010, 06:03

Hi guys,

I'm new to the subject of large format photography and I'm just reading all I can on the matter before I take the plunge and buy lenses, camera etc.

I'm interested in 8x10 photography.

Now I just read that Fuji stopped production of 8x10 film ...

Can anybody make a quick assessment what the state of 8x10 slide film is in 2010 and if availability of 8x10 color film is in danger?

I wouldn't want to spend all the money on a camera system for which I can't get film anymore in 2012!

Kind regards

Paul

Sal Santamaura

5-Jul-2010, 07:27

...Now I just read that Fuji stopped production of 8x10 film...Read where?

Brian Ellis

5-Jul-2010, 07:35

Read where?

Maybe he's thinking of this?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/181504-REG/Fujifilm_14874655_RDP_III_8x10_10_Sheets.html

Which doesn't represent all 8x10 film.

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 08:01

Well, I have not been able to find any Fuji color slide films lately (past several months) in 8x10 in New York. B&H has Fuji 160S color neg right now, and for a really good price. Fortunately, my favorite 8x10 films are from Kodak and still readily available from the big stores here in NYC: E100G for slide, Portra 160NC for negative. E100G is _very_ expensive now, about $108 for 10 sheets. Every once in a while Adorama or B&H will put it on sale though.

I have no doubt that one day color 8x10 will go away (E6 first probably), and it will become even more prohibitively expensive until then. That's too bad because unless digital imaging with 250 megapixels has become cheap by then, I'll probably gut it out for as long as it is available.

Your bigger problem is probably going to be where are you going to get E6 processing of 8x10 in your town? If not local, you'll have to mail it out. Mailing out 10 sheets of E100G for processing and getting it back is basically a $200 affair of worry while you wait and trust the USPS. In NYC E6 is still done in several places, but a lot of smaller cities have already given up, I've read. My lab in NYC just upped the price by about 30 percent on processing 8x10, and they now call it an "art" film, meaning almost no one is using the stuff commercially here anymore.

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 09:30

I should add, before you take the plunge, consider this typical expense for shooting one box of 8x10 color slide film and printing a couple of the best shots (optically). I'm not including scanning here, so you'd either have to pay for that if you want that type of workflow, or buy a scanner and scan yourself. Keep in mind that if you are shooting 8x10 and scanning and then printing, you might want a drum scan, which can be hundreds of dollars each depending on the resolution.

- 1 box E100G (10 sheets): $108
- E6 processing for all ten sheets (NYC prices): $72
- 2 reasonably large prints (why are you doing color 8x10 slide if you aren't going to print big?): >$100 depending on how fancy you get.

So you are talking about $400 per box if your success rate for wanting to print is 20 percent of the shots you take.

John

Daniel Stone

5-Jul-2010, 10:14

Personally,

I think that 8x10 color(neg and slide) will be around for a while longer. Fuji has dropped 10 sheet(and 50sht'rs) boxes, replacing both with 20sht boxes. Good and bad, if you ask me.

I'm generally a Kodak man(E100G and 160NC), but finding a cheap($$$ wise) place to develop 8x10 c-41 or E-6 is getting hard to find.

I've been using these guys:

www.samys805.com

and their prices(and quality) are super-duper! They take mail-order film(how I send mine to them), and their turnaround is super fast. Look at their pricesheet here:

www.samys805.com/film-processing/

YES, YOU SAW THAT!!! $5/sheet for 8x10 e-6 or c-41, yes $5/sheet!!!!

shoot it while you can, don't peter pan around with this. If you can't afford two boxes of film, buy one. Shoot it while its available.

quality drum scans can be done quite inexpensively as well. I'm a student(photo major too), so I'm constantly on the lookout for good deals. A friend of mine turned my on to this guy for drum scans:

http://www.jamesbeckdigital.com/jbdscans/drumscan.html

he's sent some work to him(e-6 and c-41), and has been thrilled with the results! Most labs here in LA do drum scans, but I've paid through the nose for them, only to get results that paled in comparison to an Imacon scan I did of the same negative/chrome.

shooting 8x10 isn't like 35mm, you can't really go "bang, bang, bang". Well, you can ;), but shooting 4x5, let alone 8x10 helps you to "see", and construct an image, rather than just taking it like with MF or 35mm(in most cases).

IDK how some of the fellows above me are quoting such high prices, but if you do some searching(and some waiting), you can shoot LF(yes, 8x10 as I do), on a "budget". I don't have EVERY SINGLE NEGATIVE scanned, I only have the ones done that I intend to print. Then I go out and make some more money to pay for the scan :). Simple as that.

I know people at school(students) who have over $15k in digital equipment. I've spent less than $3k in the last 2 years shooting 4x5 and 8x10, scans and film costs/developing included in that. And my lenses/camera won't be surpassed in the next 1.5 years like their digi equipment will be by the new models that come along!

just my $.02

-Dan

Drew Wiley

5-Jul-2010, 10:34

For as long as I've been shooting 8x10, one specific film or another has been out of
stock from time to time. I just order an extra box and put it in the freezer. Haven't
had any problem getting 8X10 color film lately. In fact, Kodak recently introduced
Ektar 100 in 8X10 sheets, which is hardly a sign of them intending to duck out of the
market. What people seem to forget over and over and over again is that we're living in a stressed economic environment, a recession, in which retailers are coping
by keeping inventories very low. This applies to all kinds of businesses, and photo
supply distribution is no exception. Yes, a favorite film or two might disappear, but
there is still quite a variety of options, and frankly, the 8X10 chrome and color neg
films currently available are better than ever. Can't speak for the idiosyncrasies of
NYC, but here on the West Coast, both E6 and C41 processing of 8X10 are readily
available.

Daniel Stone

5-Jul-2010, 10:57

drew,

have you used lightwaves in San Fran? I've heard great things about them, I might be doing some traveling up north this fall to shoot, and I'd like to give them a try if possible(budget willing)

-Dan

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 12:00

Can't speak for the idiosyncrasies of
NYC, but here on the West Coast, both E6 and C41 processing of 8X10 are readily
available.

Processing is available in multiple labs in New York City, as I stated. What I have heard is that if you go to certain small towns (like Miami), there are no major E6 labs left. So, it is going towards going away. I suspect NYC, SF, LA, Chi-town will be the very last places to give out. And I don't expect that for a long time, but it will get more and more expensive.

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 12:14

YES, YOU SAW THAT!!! $5/sheet for 8x10 e-6 or c-41, yes $5/sheet!!!!

-Dan

Duggal is NYC is $6.48, with cash discount, to dev E6 (or C-41 or B&W dip and dunk) 8x10 sheets. I can walk there so that is the whole charge.

On top of your $5.00, you also have to pay postage to and fro yes? Even if not we are talking a difference of $15 per box.

So, I don't really see how it is any less expensive for you than it is for me, since I do my own scanning on an Epson.

Where are you saving the money? Are you getting E100G for less than $100 regularly? Do you the facilities to print large for just the cost of paper?

I was mainly quoting prices for film, dev and two large-size optical enlargements per box (on good paper). I just don't see how you are going to get the costs down for that without having some type of connections.

John

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 12:42

I think I see where the confusion about what I said is... what I mean about "$200 affair" is that if you spend $108 on a box of ten, spend roughly $72 to mail it out to Duggal (can't get the cash discount via mail order, yes, you'd save a $20 using Daniel's source), throw in postage, and tax on those items, you are inching up to having $200 worth of your goods/services sitting in the postal system's care while you wait to get it back safely.

Daniel Stone

5-Jul-2010, 14:30

Duggal is NYC is $6.48, with cash discount, to dev E6 (or C-41 or B&W dip and dunk) 8x10 sheets. I can walk there so that is the whole charge.
Where are you saving the money? Are you getting E100G for less than $100 regularly? Do you the facilities to print large for just the cost of paper.
John

hey John.

I buy my e-6 and c-41 from a local photo warehouse who buys out stock/overrun from other retailers. they have an ebay presence(won't say which one ;)), but since I'm within driving distance, they give me a nice discount if I pay with cash.

about a month ago, I fell into a deal(due a mix-up on their part), where I was able to get a large amount of fresh 160nc for super cheap. I have to call every so often to see if they have new stock of the emulsions I like(e100g and 160nc), but since I've done business with them the last 6 months, we get on quite well.

now obviously not everyone can get these sort of deals, but I'm just saying, that if you keep a sharp lookout for film that you can use, you can generally find it cheap.

Return postage for most film orders I send to Samy's is covered by them(1st class mail, but generally, it fits nicely into a F.R. Priority envelope/box, so its $5-11 for shipping.

I don't print much of my own work, mostly because I'm not at the level of having a complete body of work worth showing IMO to the public.

so, yeah... Living in a metropolis like LA or NYC can have its upsides. But as I stated, I keep a sharp lookout for film and paper/ink deals, craigslist, kijiji, ebay, etc....

E-6 I've been shooting some slightly expired EPN Readyloads(4x5) I got earlier this year, as well as some slightly expired(but frozen) boxes of Astia I got from a guy I assisted from, he's a pro car shooter, now digital only. Used to buy cases of film at a time, so he could get all the same emulsion #.

-Dan

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 14:57

hey John.

I buy my e-6 and c-41 from a local photo warehouse who buys out stock/overrun from other retailers. they have an ebay presence(won't say which one ;)), but since I'm within driving distance, they give me a nice discount if I pay with cash.

about a month ago, I fell into a deal(due a mix-up on their part), where I was able to get a large amount of fresh 160nc for super cheap. I have to call every so often to see if they have new stock of the emulsions I like(e100g and 160nc), but since I've done business with them the last 6 months, we get on quite well.

now obviously not everyone can get these sort of deals, but I'm just saying, that if you keep a sharp lookout for film that you can use, you can generally find it cheap.

Return postage for most film orders I send to Samy's is covered by them(1st class mail, but generally, it fits nicely into a F.R. Priority envelope/box, so its $5-11 for shipping.

I don't print much of my own work, mostly because I'm not at the level of having a complete body of work worth showing IMO to the public.

so, yeah... Living in a metropolis like LA or NYC can have its upsides. But as I stated, I keep a sharp lookout for film and paper/ink deals, craigslist, kijiji, ebay, etc....

E-6 I've been shooting some slightly expired EPN Readyloads(4x5) I got earlier this year, as well as some slightly expired(but frozen) boxes of Astia(in 8x10 and 4x5) I got from a guy I assisted from, he's a pro car shooter, now digital only. Used to buy cases of film at a time, so he could get all the same emulsion #.

-Dan

Gotcha.

For me, I do 8x10 because I want the ultimate quality it provides. So, I'm always going to buy fresh film from a well-known direct retailer, and not risk that one of my shots is bad because of faulty film.

We're only 22 cents away per sheet on price for dev when you factor in your postage.

I've not printed anything really big yet, though that is the ultimate goal so I have looked into prices at several places. To get very large gallery quality prints and mounting, it just is not cheap, to say the least.

Drew Wiley

5-Jul-2010, 15:12

Daniel - yes, I'm using Lightwaves for 8X10 E-6 and C-41, though I have additional
options for 4X5. No problems so far. I'm not paranoid about the price, because I use
8x10 color film very conservatively, especially now that all my out-of-date "fun"
sheets have run out. There is a courier available in the East Bay, so I don't have to
drive over there or bother mailing the film. Well worth the convenience.

jb7

5-Jul-2010, 15:34

Can't speak for the idiosyncrasies of
NYC, but here on the West Coast, both E6 and C41 processing of 8X10 are readily
available.

Here on the east coast, there isn't much.

8x10 colour film in Europe is pretty much exactly twice the price of film in the US;
Kodak b/w is a similar multiple.

The last time I had a sheet of 8x10 C41 processed, I dropped it into a lab in London's west end (nobody does it here) and it cost £8.50 a sheet. That's $13.00.
It may be available slightly cheaper elsewhere, but I didn't go there-

I started processing my own before I reached the end of the box-

Usually, the only colour 8x10 I use is the stuff I'm lucky enough to be the highest bidder on. Not always the freshest, but better than nothing at all-

As for b/w, I use Foma, I try not to shoot when reciprocity might be a problem, and I've been lucky enough not to have suffered any of the disasters that automatically befall all those who stray from the orthodoxy of the yellow box.

As long as there's demand for film, it'll be around-
though maybe not in Europe.
If I'm forced to import it because the market is non-existent here, I'll be importing from the States.

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 16:27

Here on the east coast, there isn't much.

8x10 colour film in Europe is pretty much exactly twice the price of film in the US;
Kodak b/w is a similar multiple.

Are you really saying that 8x10 Kodak E100G is $216 USD equivalent there? Egads!!!

jb7

5-Jul-2010, 17:15

http://www.macodirect.de/kodak-ektar-100br203x254cm-8x1010-sheet-p-1987.html

That's €154.64, which according to today's online converter is $195.89, so the dollar has improved since last week, when I first made the conversion.

However, I'd have to add €18.45 for postage- $23.38.

so about $220 for a box.

Silverprint in London don't carry Ektar, but their Portra is slightly more expensive-

$206.57 at today's rates. Add postage and it's $233.52 for a box-

If I were to have it all processed at one in the UK, (but I do that myself...) that's $130, plus postage making it about $390 a box.

At a tenth of a second per exposure, that's nearly $400 a second I'm spending on Large Format.

I'm not sure Bill Gates makes that much money...

John NYC

5-Jul-2010, 18:03

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$206.57 at today's rates. Add postage and it's $233.52 for a box-

If I were to have it all processed at one in the UK, (but I do that myself...) that's $130, plus postage making it about $390 a box.

At a tenth of a second per exposure, that's nearly $400 a second I'm spending on Large Format.

I'm not sure Bill Gates makes that much money...

Wow, I'm going to stop complaining!

Well, looking at my recent test snapshots from my Ricoh GR Digital III and comparing them with the final 8x10 scans of b&w, color slide and color negative versions from a shoot last weekend, I do have to say it is worth it to me... for now at least. In fact, I'm getting to where I don't really want to shoot anything else. I've got five (some partially used) boxes of film in my fridge. It's getting to be Fort Knox in there!

Michael Wynd

5-Jul-2010, 18:33

Here in Oz, 8x10 slide film is a special order and costs about $180- $200 AUD for 10 sheets. Figure in processing @$20 AUD per sheet, scanning @$37 per sheet and an 8x10 print @ $38 each, and you soon find that shooting 8x10 slide is uneconomical for those who haven't won the lotto. I would love to try 8x10 slide (I currently shoot 8x10 Efke 25) but by the time I get 10 prints done from 10 slides it's over $1150 AUD. Not too many people here in Oz can afford that.
You guys in America have things really good, don't complain too much yet.
Mike

Craig Griffiths

5-Jul-2010, 19:28

Michael, I have been lucky enough to pick up a few hundred sheets of Velvia 50 in 8x10 and that cost me about $10 per sheet. Processing I do myself so the price for that is about $2-3 per sheet. but even still it is a minimum of $13 per shot. Efke 25 isnt bad ordered from Freestyle for my black and white, just hope Andrew can do something about 8x10 slide film as well as the Efke 25.

as far as scanning is concerned, I havent found anyone up here who can do a decent scan as yet, and processing of 8x10 is nearly impossible to find, hence the need to do it yourself or send it to Melbourne or Sydney.

It is a lot easier in the US

Michael Wynd

5-Jul-2010, 20:06

Craig,
If Andrew hasn't got his thing up and running by the time you next need 8x10 film, do you want to combine an order from Freestyle?
Mike

JustinB

10-Jul-2010, 08:12

Just as an aside, color film development here in NYC from US Color Lab, $5.50 a sheet (E-6 within 3 hours, c-41 within 24). I haven't used them for LF yet, but they have done right by me on my medium format stuff.

www.uscolorlab.com

John NYC

10-Jul-2010, 15:54

Dave Jeffery

11-Jul-2010, 03:18

"I've been using these guys:

www.samys805.com"

I used Calypso for years and was going to buy/ build a processor until I saw the prices at Samy's in Santa Barbara. I have switched to using them the processing results have been great.

When I was doing business with Calypso I would just send in my film with my name and address. The receptionist knew of me, as did the lady in the processing department, and they would automatically process the film and charge my credit card. Once in a while I would have to change things and a phone call would work. If you use Samy's it's best to fill out the order form that they provide online and send that in each time with each shipment of film as they handle things differently. Unlike Calypso phone messages can reach a number of players with the same name. If you have done a lot of business with Calypso in the past don't expect the same workflow at Samy's. Once I started using the order form at Samy's each time, as I should have from the start, the turn around times have been very fast and the shipping is very fast and cheap as well.

Another vote for www.samys805.com on the west coast. This is for 4x5 film but they process 8 x10 as well.

Best Regards

Asher Kelman

23-Aug-2012, 17:25

So, where are we two years later? What films are still available and what labs can still handle the processing. A&I in LA has cut back but still does C-41 and B&W and is $8.50 for an 8x10 sheet, 4x5 is $3.00, not bad at all! Icon, http://iconia.com has benefitted from A&I shrinking its film processing options. They do process E-6, C-41, black and white!

Asher

Brian C. Miller

23-Aug-2012, 17:49

Kodak 8x10 is special order, for B&W and C-41 color, through Canham Cameras (http://www.canhamcameras.com/).
No more Kodak E-6.
Fuji 8x10 E-6 is available in Velvia (maybe) and Provia (definitely). Acros 8x10 is available in Japan.
Ilford 8x10 is available, in Delta 100, HP5+, and FP4+.
There's the stuff from Efke (going away?), Adox, and Rollei/Agfa.

24-Aug-2012, 07:01

Kodak B&W 8x10 is available at B&H as well.

Jim Shanesy

24-Aug-2012, 07:07

I predict that Ilford will be the last manufacturer of 8x10 B&W film. I've already made the switch. It's nice not to have to worry about what Kodak will discontinue next.

paulr

24-Aug-2012, 07:14

The prices even for 4x5 color were so daunting they pushed me to using a dslr (after one project with a hasselblad, which had a quaint look, but couldn't compete with either big film or a good sensor).

These prices for 8x10 processing would be a game ender for me instantly, unless I was doing assignment work for clients willing to pay for it. If image quality (or potential image quality) is the main justification for the 8x10 film, I'd look hard at exactly what you're doing. What's your typical shooting aperture? I ask because comparisons show that 8x10 is indeed capable of capturing more information than either 4x5 or medium format digital, but only within a narrow range of circumstances, including using apertures closest to the lens's sweet spot. If you're stopping down to f32 of f64 for depth of field, you are destroying your resolution advantages over 4x5 (which at f22 no longer has resolution advantages over medium format digital shot at f11. And so on).

At this point 8x10 would appeal to me mostly for contact printing alt processes or just for the fun of using it ... but I'd have to limit it to b+w.

Drew Wiley

24-Aug-2012, 08:18

That's nonsense, Paul. I routinely shoot 8x10 at f/45 and f/64, and it still blows away any
4x5 at any aperture, provided the subject is amenable to typical view camera controls per plane of focus. I do this kind of stuff routinely. After all, 8x10 has four times the surface area as 4x5, so minor differences in diffraction aren't going to have that big an effect overall, esp if you are comparing big enlargements. A bigger problem is film plane flatness, since 8x10 will sag more in the holder; but that can be easily cured with adhesive filmholders.

Drew Wiley

24-Aug-2012, 08:22

Asher - both C41 and E6 processing are still readily available up here in the Bay Area, in all
formats up thru 8x10 (though I haven't had reason to inquire about 5X7, which is an uncommon color film size anyway).

paulr

24-Aug-2012, 09:31

What can I say, Drew, your version of reality doesn't correspond with what can be shown objectively (http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/camera-test-editors-commentary/) (and has often been shown). The science is unequivocal on this. If one's goal is the shallow depth of field allowed by larger formats, then there's no other way to achieve it (besides faking it). But if you're seeking a deep field, the capabilities of the formats get very close to each other. Part of the issue, in addition to diffraction, is that lenses that cover 8x10 are just not as good as the best lenses that cover only 4x5. Just as these lenses are not as good as the best lenses that only cover a MF sensor. All lens design involves compromises, and designers make big ones to get that additional angle of coverage. Interestingly, film plane flatness has not shown itself to be the major issue with 8x10 that it's often been presumed to be.