Well water for film & print [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

SeanEsopenko

28-Jun-2010, 11:52

I live on an acreage where our well provides extremely hard water. It leaves a white residue when it evaporates. We have a test from the hospital and it's high in bicarbonates (pH of about 8.4).

Can very hard water be used for film processing and wet photo printing? When we wash dishes we just have to make sure we towel dry them so that a residue isn't left behind. I'm pretty sure I could ensure I do the same when using a Jobo but I don't know what it will do, chemically, with the photography chemicals.

I'm looking into jumping into 4x5 photography but if I can't process the film at home it's out of the question.

Henry Ambrose

28-Jun-2010, 12:16

I've moved to a house with well water and I'm facing similar problems. The simplest solution is to buy distilled water and use that for the critical parts of your development process. I mix all chemicals with distilled and also use it for final rinse with Photoflo. I paid $.89 per gallon recently so buying water is not a deal breaker.

At my last house with city water I used a reverse osmosis filter for water for mixing and final rinse. The city water was fine for everything else. I will eventually install filters here but not right away as there are too many other things in line before that project.

The big inconvenience is that for film and print washing its a little troublesome to use bottled water. You'll do more hands on work agitating and changing water as compared to running water from the tap. If your water is really full of dissolved solids you might have to put in a filter to be able to use it for processing. Or use bottled for everything. Either way its doable.

Or if you're a real smooth talker now is the time to tell your wife about a whole house water filter and conditioner and how much she needs one.

Harold_4074

28-Jun-2010, 12:28

I have similar water quality (except: the pH is only about 8.2, I have enough salt to form cubic crystals if very much water evaporates, and there is also a good bit of hydrogen sulfide).

At first, I tried using distilled water for developer and final rinse, and then experimented with straight well water. To my surprise, the difference was undetectable, except that mineral spots formed from water droplets on negatives or glossy prints.

I now use Photo-Flo in the last tank of wash water, and if the film does not "sheet off" I spritz it with Photo-Flo in distilled water from a squeeze bottle. This is usually a problem only with 35mm film.

The foregoing holds for PMK, HC-110 and Dektol; there may well be other chemistry that is much less tolerant. Acid stop baths and fixers are, of course, pretty much immune, but I haven't seen any problems with (non-acid) TF-4 fixer.

Archival stability is another question entirely, but I have only about ten years of data, so it will be up to my heirs to make that call!

ic-racer

28-Jun-2010, 12:36

I believe the forum member "John Powers" is a well water user. If he does not chime in here, you could PM. I think he just filters the water and gets good results.

Ash

28-Jun-2010, 12:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yStABtum3rQ

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/dealing_hard_water.htm

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/other/otherplumbing.html

http://www.allwaterpurification.com/diy-water-softener.html

Some quick links off google in case you do go down the softener route

Drew Wiley

28-Jun-2010, 12:48

pH is going to most affect the developer and final rinse. I'd use distilled for these.
You can simply run your water through a filter for your film or print washer, but afterward dip your work in a tray of distilled with Photoflo for final rinse before drying.
Hard water can also affect equipment like tempering valves.

Brian Sims

28-Jun-2010, 17:04

Winger

28-Jun-2010, 17:12

Sean, I am about to move to 14 acres with a well that has pretty good water, but I am more concerned about what black and white film processing might do to my septic system. You may want to look into that also. If the photo chemicals shut down the bio-functions in the septic system it could be an expensive fix. Any septic system experts here who could distinguish between the risks of developers, stop-bath, fixer and hypoclear on septic systems?
If you aren't doing much processing, it really isn't going to have an effect (much of the chemicals as used are water and would be a very small amount compared to what's in the system). The bacteria actually like developer, though silver in used fixer isn't good. But it's possible to have drums for waste that get picked up when full (I use Safety Kleen). I have both septic and a well, so I have drums and use distilled for some parts of the process. For prints I use the well water for washing, but not for film.

Henry Ambrose

28-Jun-2010, 17:16

I'm not an expert but I've had darkrooms on septic systems and its not been a problem. Hobby type level output is pretty well handled by dilution in the system. You are introducing significantly less chemicals than doing your laundry which for most folks occurs more frequently and in greater volume than darkroom work ever will.

PH, if constant, can likely be reckoned with. Dissolved solids and particulate is a little tougher. I have a good bit of particulate - grit and sand. A big goober of grit on a negative is a problem that basic filtering will cure. Using distilled water will cure it too.

What I want is consistency from the water supply. That's what you need to do consistent work.

nolindan

28-Jun-2010, 17:38

A little bit of bicarb isn't going to be a problem with photo chemicals. Most developers have a good dollop of S. Carbonate in them that will completely overwhelm any pH contribution from the bicarb. All of them (with very, very few exceptions) are quite alkaline. Though you might want to use distilled water for homeopathic dilutions of Rodinal.

As mentioned, use distilled water to make up Photoflo.

SeanEsopenko

28-Jun-2010, 18:42

With the amount of work I'll be doing there won't be much for chemicals going into the septic system.

I did some more googling and it sounds exactly like you guys said, to use distilled water through a couple parts of the process and that's not a huge issue.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It looks like I'll be going ahead and rounding up darkroom stuff. This is getting exciting, I haven't been in a dark room since I finished my BFA 2 years ago!

:D

Ed Brock

28-Jun-2010, 19:38

I would advise designing a simple rainwater harvesting system. You will then have a good volume of very soft water for any process. I am in my 30th year of doing just that. The only requirement for using rainwater to process film etc, is to run it through a 1 micron filter and change the filter every 2 years or so. (there are lots of disolved solids in rainwater).

Just catch it off your roof. You will get about 0.6 gallons of water from each square foot of catchment in a 1 inch rain.

Brian Sims

28-Jun-2010, 19:48

You might want to check out what Kodak says about photo chemicals (especially fixer and selenium toner) going into the septic system. They do NOT recommend doing this. It is more than just the smooth operation of the septic system...that might only cost a few hundred dollars for extra pumping. There is the risk of fines for violating local codes. But the risk that is small but important is screwing up the aquifer that you and your neighbors are drinking from. It is amazing how often we hear news about a community with bad drinking water due to their own carelessness and now they are demanding that taxpayers bail them out. Out of sight-out of mind just doesn't cut it any more. I would strongly urge everyone on a septic system to avoid dumping the worst stuff down the drain--that is fixer and selenium (and I don't know what from the array of color processing chemicals).

Wade D

29-Jun-2010, 00:45

I live on a 40 acre ranch with 6 wells. All of the water entering the house is triple filtered. I've never had any ill effects from either mixing chemicals or washing film and prints with this setup. None of the wash water or chemicals go into the septic system. They go into a gray water holding tank used for watering the lawns and trees.

Ash

29-Jun-2010, 04:12

bob carnie

29-Jun-2010, 06:44

I plan to move to a location in a few years where I will probably be on septic system.
My use will be beyond hobby but not as heavy as my operation here in Toronto.

I am curious on any water filtration systems currently available that would be able to work on basically the wash water, dev and stop. For the fix I will always use a silver recovery service.

For arguments sake lets say price is no object, what technology's would some here reccomend looking at that would work on the water before releasing to the septic.

Tom Monego

29-Jun-2010, 07:12

My last darkroom was on a septic system, we had a new setic system installed while I was living at the house (27 years). This was due to having a cess pool originally that failed. It was also before Massachusetts made some very strict laws concerning septic systems. I had a long discussion with the waste water management guy in the town about darkrooms. His feeling that for a single professional level photographer, the most dangerous thing to the septic system was overwhelming it with water ie don't run water all the time you are processing. Silver from a personal darkroom is a nonissue, it is commercial labs running hundreds and thousands of prints/film that cause a problem. You can always use a silver recovery system, but you won't get much silver. Selenium is another question but again what is the concentration and the amount you use.
So I started to process film with 3 water changes after fixing film in water for 30 sec., use a fixer remover, Sprint and Kodak are the best, the 7 + water changes, photoflo hang to dry. With prints I had an Oriental compartment washer and again used fixer remover. The other advantage here is you can get all the chemicals to the same temperature.
Another source of near distilled water is dehumidifiers, necessary in my Vermont basement.

Tom

Scott Walker

29-Jun-2010, 08:23

Hi Sean,

I live on a farm south of Calgary near Okotoks and have the same issues with the water. I installed a Home Depot inline water filter to get rid of what it can. I did development tests of course, and they matched my tests from when I lived in the City of Calgary so the weird water doesn’t seem to mess with development. As far as affecting the archival quality of film and prints.....who knows......so its better safe than sorry and distilled water final rinse/soak it is.

I replaced my entire septic system so I have enquired about dumping chemicals and larger than normal amounts of water through it, the response was that the photo chemicals would have no adverse affect on the system itself at the scale that I would be using it and that my system was way overbuilt so the extra water is not a problem. I assume that if the system is small for the size of the house and number of people using it you could saturate the field and cause issues.

Something that you should be aware of is that up until just recently in this part of the world the property owner could get a permit to put in a septic system which circumvented soil percolation tests, common sense, etc. so there are lots of septic systems that are undersized, built incorrectly, discharging into soil that will flush easily into streams and aquifers and a variety of other issues.

Harold_4074

29-Jun-2010, 11:26

Given the amount of discussion in this thread regarding septic systems, I would like to point out that there are two criteria involved in proper design and operation.

The commonly understood one is that the leach field has to be able to dispose of the effluent at least as fast as liquids are introduced to the system; this is the point of percolation tests.

Less widely recognized is that the effectiveness of the system is directly related to the "residence time", the average amount of time that a portion of material entering the tank spends there being microbially degraded before being released to the leach field. This the basis for choosing the tank capacity, usually as a function of the number of bedrooms (on the theory that the amount of water will be proportional to the number of people in the house). What this has to do with photography is twofold. First, if your system is effectively oversized (tank is large compared to the amount of water usage, perhaps because the kids have grown up and left home) then even a certain amount of interference by photo chemicals is likely to be inconsequential, and the converse is also true. Second, minimizing the amount of water going into the tank is always good strategy, because this increases the residence time for any given tank capacity, thereby allowing more time for microbial degradation. After the first rinse, the amount of chemicals in wash water is negligible, so running it out onto the ground is actually better than putting it through the septic tank, from an aquifer-safety standpoint.

Wade D

30-Jun-2010, 17:13

What about eutrophication?
The amount of chemicals is quite low and does not seep into the ground water with any concentration that would cause eutrophication or anoxia.

30-Jun-2010, 18:24

This has been a good discussion here.

The concerns expressed about selenium toner disposal could be addressed to a very large extent by how one uses selenium toner. I'm mostly referring to Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (KRST) here, so other variant toners might need other procedures. I'm no chemist, so the chemists out there could clarify and correct me on this, but my understanding on the use of selenium toner is that if you keep your toner alkaline and keep it clean and filtered, it should last a very very long time. If I get it right, selenium toner degrades quite fast when allowed to become acidic.

How you keep KRST alkaline is to get acid fix out of your system entirely, or to wash your prints far enough to neutralize them before putting them into the toner, or to neutralize the acid fix by bathing the prints in sulfite based hypo clearing agents before toning. I wash and dry my prints before deciding which I want to tone, so they are pretty neutral. Regardless, I first bathe them in a sulfite bath before toning. The sulfite renders them mildly alkaline. My toner stays very clean without even needing filtration.

The idea that one should add HCA to toner has been said to have the weakness that the sulfite will get old before the selenium toner, and that it's better to pre-treat than to mix KRST and HCA together.

Henry Ambrose

30-Jun-2010, 19:06

You can eliminate some chemicals. I use developer, plain water stop and an alkaline fix. I rarely use toners of any kind. I think selenium may be a fetish left over from practices that were the standard 40 years ago. That's just my opinion.

I'm not saying you should alter your creative process by eliminating some chemicals but rather minimize your use to that which is needed. If you need it to get the look you want then go for it.

You can test your wash to see if you really need 10 minutes running water for film or an hour for fiber paper. (likely not) There is no point in washing longer than is needed to do the job. Wash just enough to do what needs to happen with your materials.

Darryl Baird

30-Jun-2010, 20:11

Our well water is HARD, with more than the EPA limits on arsenic, so we installed a reverse osmosis under the kitchen counter from Sears (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04238156000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=). (mine is smaller @ 2 gallon capacity)

It's a gem, saves trips to the store (and money) for distilled water. The filters are a little expensive, but need to be changed only once a year... for the main filter and every six months or so for the sediment filters. Ice cubes are clear, pets are healthy, and I always have good water for developing, and drop film into a RO water bath after washing with the regular well water.

rdenney

1-Jul-2010, 06:08

Our well-water is moderately hard, and also includes dissolved iron and a bit of sulphur along with the usual grit and bacteria. Unlike yours, it is acidic. Our first treatment is an acid neutralizer--acidic water will damage the ion-exchange bed of the water softener. For a while we used a manganese green-sand iron remover, but that system failed (plus the potassium permanganate used for regeneration was expensive and nasty if spilled), so we are just using a regular consumer-grade water softener. The final step in our system is a large activated carbon filter. The water softener addresses both the hardness and the iron. I do not know what it would do to reduce the alkalinity of your water, but that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

Water softeners work by ion exchange, and use salt only to refresh the ion bed. The salt used during regeneration is mostly discarded, but there will be a little residual salt put into the water system. So, if salt is an issue, consider a softener technology that doesn't use it. An air-injection system might be an option.

If you use an air conditioner, the condensate from the evaporator is reasonably well-distilled. But if you have a high-efficiency gas furnace, do not use the moisture that drains when the furnace is in use. That moisture is corrosive.

If I were to build a darkroom, I would do it in my basement where the drains feed to a dry well rather than to my septic system.

My basement looks like a water-treatment plant, except for the (usual, but not always) lack of settling ponds.

Rick "whose Epson 3800 does not challenge the water treatment and septic systems" Denney

SeanEsopenko

1-Jul-2010, 13:13

wow lots of discussion on this. So we've established working with the well water won't be a large issue and the chemicals going in the septic probably won't be much trouble.

I've started working on converting an old storage shack on the acreage to a dark room. It's about 15'x20'. I'll be redoing the shingles Sunday and re-painting/light sealing it over the next week. Then I'll have to build the apparatus to store the water and maintain it's temperature. I'll probably wrap a large rubbermaid trash bin in insulation and use an aquarium heater/pump to maintain the temperture. I'll use a garden hose to fill it in the summer and haul 5 gallon pails manually in the winter. Hooking it directly to the house's water is logistically out of the question.

I have an RO unit from before I moved to the acreage but I discovered long ago the water pressure's not high enough. Our pressure's between 17-25psi when it needs 40psi+ to work properly. We don't have that large of a pressure tank and the inlaws are worried increasing it's pressure might cause the piping in the house to burst. Not something I want to try to convince them otherwise of. We have a distiller, however (father-in-law makes moonshine haha). The idea of running the water through a whole house filter is a good one, too. I think I have one sitting around. I can't really plumb it into the house but I could hook it to a garden hose adapter.

One issue I'm trying to figure out is light sealing the door. I don't really have room to build a second door so I've been trying to figure out how to light seal it well enough to handle film sheets. Any advice?

Harold_4074

1-Jul-2010, 13:45

One issue I'm trying to figure out is light sealing the door. I don't really have room to build a second door so I've been trying to figure out how to light seal it well enough to handle film sheets. Any advice?

Sure. Assuming that you have walled off a portion of the building, use two curtains, preferably inside and outside the doorway, with no conventional door at all. A double curtain on one side of the doorway is almost as good. Weight (such as a length of chain sewn into the hem of each curtain) will help with the sealing. The curtains have to be long enough to pile up a bit at the bottom. Attach both curtains to the top of the doorway by clamping behind a strip of wood that is screwed on. However, attach only the left side of one curtain and the right side of the other, so that they stay overlapped when you are not going through. (You might want to do this after you move in large objects like sinks, enlargers and such.)

My darkroom, such as it is, occupies part of a horse-tack building, and because of earthquake safety I don't want to put in a proper door that could become jammed. So I use an army-surplus olive-drab wool blanket and a second curtain of black Oxford cloth (the flame-retardant stuff used in theatrical sets). There is a flimsy plywood outside door to the building which faces west, so the area outside the darkroom is pretty bright, but the curtain setup is perfectly adequate for film handling and tray developing.

A suitable black cloth for these purposes is called duvetyne, or commando cloth; if you can't get it in Canada, it is available from filmtools.com in the Los Angeles CA area. Black velvet sounds great, but is expensive, attractive to lint and other trash, and difficult to sew. I suspect that the blackout cloth used in draperies would also work; like my blanket, it will be too wide for the doorway, so just fold the edges in before installing, and let the extra bulk at the sides help to trap light.

Good luck!

SeanEsopenko

6-Jul-2010, 15:55

Does anybody know if running a booster pump for an RO system would affect the well-pump and/or pressure-tank in a negative manner? I could source out a diaphragm pump for the aquarium RO/DI system I have and that could solve most of the issue of water purity for photo-flo and developer.

I decided to solve one logistic at a time and now that the leaking roof has been reshingled I'm concentrating on water supply/drainage. I'm picking up a double laundry sink in about an hour for $35 from the used classifieds :)

It's easy to put a barrel of water up in the air on a rack or the likes, but getting the water IN the barrel has been a real brainstorm. So far it seems a 250 foot garden hose out to the shack to fill the barrel is the simplest solution next to manually hauling 5 gallon pails.

Harold_4074

6-Jul-2010, 16:57

You could certainly feed a booster pump from your low-pressure well water, but then you would need either a pressure tank for the high-pressure supply or a booster pump exactly matched to the RO throughput (which varies as the membranes age). Otherwise, the booster pump will either run continuously against a large backpressure or cycle rapidly as water passes through the RO membranes.

Before making this investment, perhaps you should consider the local price of DI water (where I am, it is less than a dollar a gallon in the grocery store) and multiply this by the rate at which you will use water for developer and Photo-Flo. Electricity is probably cheaper for you than it would be for me (in California), but even so, if you include it and amortize the pump/tank system over a reasonable lifetime you may find that it is cheaper to just buy the water as you need it.

Similar considerations apply to electric water distillers. I haven't looked at operating costs in several years, but when I first built my darkroom I found that a $300 tabletop distiller could give me water that was just slightly more expensive than I could buy it at retail! Considering that commercial DI water is just as good for darkroom purposes, it was a no-brainer decision.

Henry Ambrose

6-Jul-2010, 17:27

Buying distilled water is the easy and cheap solution in most locales. Go buy 20-30 gallons and your problem is instantly solved for not much money.

In the meantime, keep thinking about the RO filter and a brilliant solution may pop up in front of you.

rdenney

7-Jul-2010, 04:50

I gather from your question that your darkroom is in a shed or outbuilding 250 feet from the house.

A booster pump to fill a 50-gallon tank at the darkroom may well exhaust your pressure tank in your home. You would then be depending on the well pump to keep up with the booster pump. You will avoid a problem as long as you limit the flow to something well under what the well pump can handle, either by using a small booster pump or by running it through a constriction.

But I'm not sure you need a booster pump to fill a storage tank. 250 feet of garden hose is a long run, but not that long, unless it's significantly uphill. Your well pump should be able to handle it. (My well pump is 275 feet down in the well, and has to push the water straight up and still achieve 50 psi a ground level, after a 175-foot horizontal run.) You shouldn't need a booster pump just to fill that tank. But you may need more pressure at the darkroom to drive your reverse-osmosis filter, if that's where you put it. For that, you'll need a complete pump and pressure system in the darkroom, including a pressure tank. Harbor freight gets about $40 for a 10-gpm clear water pump (it is not self-priming, so mount it under your storage tank), and a five-gallon pressure tank should be fine (given that you'll be draining that pressure tank regularly, you can just use a five-gallon tank fed from the bottom and pushing against the air in the top of the tank. That air has to be replaced from time to time as it gets absorbed into the water. If you will not be draining the system regularly, get a pressure tank with a bladder.) You'll also need a pressure switch, a gauge, and the necessary plumbing. Plus the filter, of course.

You could actually keep your storage tank filled during operation using a plain toilet valve with a float. A toilet valve would provide enough constriction to keep from overworking your well pump.

With that setup, you would not be using the house well pump to keep up with flow requirements in your darkroom, except to (much more slowly) fill a storage tank. The pump system in your darkroom would provide sufficient head to push the water through the filter, and you would not be depending on your well pump for that, either.

You could also mount the filter in the house and then run the 250-foot hose to a storage tank mounted above your plumbing, and then feed your darkroom using gravity.

Of course, you'll have to drain everything that is out in the weather when there is a freezing potential.

Is that easier than buying gallon jugs of distilled water? That depends on your volume, and the distance to the nearest grocery store. Of course, you could always pour those gallon jugs into your storage tank and bypass your filter.

Rick "who has spent more at times to achieve less improvement in convenience" Denney

Harold_4074

7-Jul-2010, 13:21

rdenney

7-Jul-2010, 13:46

unless it's significantly uphill

For present purposes, "significantly" relates to the house pressure in PSI multiplied by 2.3 feet; this is the height to which the house pressure will raise water. With 17 PSI at the source, if the other end of the hose is 40 feet higher then the water in a full hose will drain back towards the house!

No, it won't drain backwards unless the check valve in the pump fails. Water is incompressible. But it will keep the pressure high enough such that the pressure switch will not switch on the pump. The water won't drain backwards, but it will come to a stop. Adding further head will just increase the pressure in the system at the downhill end of the hose.

Most well-pump pressure switches are set to switch on at 30 psi and switch off at 50 psi, or thereabouts. Some operate in a range of 20-40, but these are usually the pumps in mobile homes and RVs. The limitation is not the pump--well pumps are pretty powerful. As I said, mine overcomes 275 of head even before reaching the pressure switch, which doesn't turn it off until it reaches 50 psi.

Submersed well pumps have a built-in check valve so that they are not under head pressure when starting. Ground-level well pumps should have a check valve to avoid loss of prime.

Of course, 50 or 60 feet in a 250-foot run is a 20+% grade. That's uphill, even here in the Blue Ridge Piedmont.

Rick "like I said, significantly uphill" Denney

Harold_4074

7-Jul-2010, 14:33

Yep, a 20% grade is pretty steep, so it should be easy to tell if the lift is "significant" :)

At the risk of nitpicking: most systems have a pressure tank with a check valve only on the pump side; water can definitely drain back by compressing the air cushion in the pressure tank. This can lead to a number of bad things in potable water systems, but we are already pretty far from the OP's concerns....

rdenney

7-Jul-2010, 14:37

SeanEsopenko

9-Jul-2010, 16:28

I gather from your question that your darkroom is in a shed or outbuilding 250 feet from the house.

...

Is that easier than buying gallon jugs of distilled water? That depends on your volume, and the distance to the nearest grocery store. Of course, you could always pour those gallon jugs into your storage tank and bypass your filter.

Rick "who has spent more at times to achieve less improvement in convenience" Denney

Yeah it's in a small insulated outbuilding (without a cement foundation because we don't have a permit for it).

I'm thinking initially, since my water demand won't be vary high, I'm just going to build an aparatus that will raise a single 5 gallon pail in the air with a bulkhead in the bottom leading to the sink. The sink will be draining straight into 5 gallon pails (one per sink tub). I'll have a sort of "pedestal" below it that I can set the pail on to fill it without having to remove the plumbing. I'll just cart pails of water with the dolly until I feel I'm sick of it and want to design something better. If I am refilling my supply in the shack for a day's work I'll probably want water similar in temperature to the chemicals in the shack so I'll probably be mixing hot & cold indoors and not using the straight cold-water feed from outside, anyways.

The RO/DI system's been ruled out because I've discovered from the person it was lent to that it needs all new cartridges and a new membrane. With the amount of purified water I'll be using I could probably buy purified water for a year and a half before I'd reach the cost of the cartridges and the booster pump.

The light baffle for the ventilation system was done last night. Some time this weekend I'm going to hook up a thermostat so it'll kick in while I'm away if the temperature in the shack is a little high. It's 31 Celsius outside right now! I'll probably be storing chemicals in the house during the extreme weather periods.

Harold_4074

12-Jul-2010, 17:32

Temperature consistency will matter to you in two ways: development time, and reticulation (the "wrinkling" of gelatin when exposed, wet, to a sharp change in temperature). For years, I have carried either ice water or hot water from the house to mix with whatever was coming of the pipe to the darkroom, using a large stock pot to store a "working supply" of water blended to an accurate 68 F. Fixer temperature is adjusted by swishing its container around in hot or cold water, as appropriate, and thermal inertia holds it close enough to working temperature that reticulation has never been a problem. This method is fine for up to 4x5 in one-liter tanks or single sheets of 8x10 in trays, since one stock pot of water will make presoak, one-shot developer, and a rinse in lieu of stop bath (the rinse and presoak are used for the first two stages of the wash process as well) with plenty left for thorough washing.

For 8x10 in one-gallon tanks, a good bit more water is needed. This is about two stock pots worth, and it makes more sense to use ice instead of refrigerator-chilled water for tempering (my well water is 71 F year-round but the first water out of the buried pipe can be anywhere from the high 50s up to about 75 or so, depending on season and time of day).

Prints are taken to the house for washing, partly because the house has a water softener that removes the scale-forming stuff and nearly all of the iron, both of which make a mess of the print washer.

I am considering replacing the stock pot with a plastic ice chest, so that I can start work with enough tempered water to finish a batch of 8x10s. The ultimate solution, of course, involves a water chiller, water heater, and mixing valve---but then I'd be looking at running heavier wiring to the darkroom!

Eric Woodbury

12-Jul-2010, 18:02

My well water is right around 440 mg per liter hardness, mostly calcium. My drinking glasses are all etched or white with salts. If I leave ice to melt in a glass, there is sediment in the water. But, it doesn't taste bad and there is no chlorine. I use it for everything in the dark except mixing film developer and final film rinse. Never had a problem. I do have a filter on the water to take out the lumps and if I had more than the 25 psi I'm getting, I might consider a reverse osmosis system. Distilled water is only 25 - 35 cents a gallon from the machine.

SeanEsopenko

23-Sep-2010, 16:07

Ok I'm resurrecting this thread. I've been hauling room temperature well-water into the shack using a 5 gallon water-cooler jug and I always have a jug of reverse osmosis water handy from the store for my developer & photo-flo.

When it comes to washing my film sheets and RC paper, I've been using the recommended wash times, but in a tray of water and I exchange the tray entirely once per minute. I agitate film by cycling it about the same speed I did the development (like how development agitation is described in Ansel Adam's book). I agitate the RC paper by constantly flipping it over in and out of the water. Does this seem adequate to you? I use a tray of a similar size to the film or paper.

Then I finally swish in photo-flo to get rid of the hard salt water. I find my prints & film dry nice and spot free but I'm worried about whether I'm getting all the fixer out.

I've been using RC paper, not fiber. I've been using ilford rapid fixer which I believe is a non-hardening fixer. Oh would hypo-clear help with film and RC paper when using a non-hardening fixer like ilford rapid fixer?

Brian C. Miller

23-Sep-2010, 16:21

SeanEsopenko

23-Sep-2010, 17:19

How about using a hypo clearing wash agent (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/c304-Black-and-White-Chemicals-Hypo-Clearing-Agents)? But Ilford recommends a wash time of two minutes in running water for RC paper, and a maximum wet time of 15 minutes.

yeah both ilford and kodak don't list hypoclear as a step in their recommendations for processing RC paper (on the package of kodak fixer, or in the downloadable pdf for ilford rapid fixer).
Kodak and Ilford's recommended processing instructions for selenium toner also recommend hypoclear as part of the wash process for fiber paper but omit the hypoclear when toning RC paper.

My understanding is that the hypoclear makes the compounds in the fixer easier to wash out but then ansel adam's book confuses me further by saying it's for hardening fixers. Is Kodak fixer a hardening fixer?

So in summary, my questions are does hypo-clear help with RC paper and/or non-hardening fixers and is washing negatives and paper in a tray of water, exchanging the water entirely every minute, equivalent to "running water" (like a kodak easy siphon) for the same manufacturer recommended time period? If hypo-clear can be used with any fixing process, about how many 8x10 prints can be washed in 1L of solution before it's exhausted?