Need Help With An Arca Swiss

[rohan hutchinson]

Good evening, I need your help, I am seriously considering buying a new arca swiss 8x10 f-line compact.as i have been using a horseman 8x10 for a few years now, and need a lighter camera.
The problem is I am based in Australia and will have to purchase without having a look at one.
I need to know when the rail in compacted i believe it come with the 50cm, how long is it? I am needing to put it in a lowepro nature trekker or computrekker plus rolling.
I would love not to have to take the front standard off to pack it but am not sure. the bag is about 20cm deep give or take. alos if i need to take the front standard off is it quick to do like any other rail.
also if any one knows with the 360mm rodenstock 6.8 lens what is the minimum focal distance on a 30cm rail. as am considering buying one as well. if anyone has one of these cameras and puts it in there backpack can you take a photo for me to see how big it is packed away
cheers
rohan hutchinson

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from the other side of the planet !
(I actually live somewhat closer to the Arca Swiss European office than you: 5 minutes drive, not 20,000 km ;) )

Regarding the choice for a 8x10" Arca Swiss monorail camera, you have the F-classic with "collapsible" rail, I prefer the term "folding rail" like here
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/images/products/18.jpg
And you have the same models with a telescopic rail, made of smaller rails sliding above another long rail, like here
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/images/products/8.jpg

And you have the 8x10" misura which is the lightest of all 8x10" Arca Swiss monorail cameras. This model will be discussed later.

As far as F-classic, F-metric and Monolith cameras are concerned, you can refer to the Arca Swiss catalogue of year ~2000,
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ARCA.pdf

The only difference for 8x10" cameras in 2010 is that the front standard is now smaller, 141x141 mm, not 171x171 like before ~ 2004. But you can find a second-hand F-line camera with 171x171 standards, the corresponding bellows are still available as spare parts from the manufacturer.

The F-metric is a variant of the F-classic with geared, self-locking rise and shift controls, the F-metric function carriers incorporate a built-il lateral shift control (a gear-controlled precision sliding dovetail) and are heavier that the F-classic carriers where you simply shift & clamp the moving standard manually.
You also have the Monolith range of cameras with all geared self-locking controls including tilts & swings but this is definitely the heaviest of all.

The 8x10" misura is lighter than the others because the rear function carrier has no tilts and no swings.

Regarding rail lengths:
- with the folding rail, a 50cm rail is hinged in the middle and folds into a 25cm length, this is the Compact version. You can add an extension rail in front, up to 25 cm, total = 75cm.

- with the telescopic rail, you have two independant halves, for example 2 times 25 cm, sliding into another rail, underneath, 50cm long. By sliding both rails outwards by one half, i.e. 12.5cm, the maximum rail length is 75 cm (12.5+ 50 + 12.5) ; for the folding rail of length 50 cm plus one extension of 25 = 75 cm, the same. Some people prefer the telescopic rail to the folding rail, this is a matter of taste and you can always change your rails to someting even longer.

People using the telescopic rail usually collapse the whole camera on the front rail, and take off the rear rail and the underneath 50 cm rail. Total thickness collapsed : 25 cm.
So you never have to disassemble the camera standards, you do not have to take the function carriers off the rails.
The surface taken by the rear standard in 8x10", no mystery, is the same as for any 8x10" camera : about 20x25 cm, plus something ;)

----------

The 8x10" misura has a special folding rail in two unequal halves, the rear half is longer and folds upwards, this makes the folded misura extremely compact, This images will explain all.
http://markhamjohnson.blogspot.com/2008/05/arca-swiss-misura-8x10_05.html
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1084/4730679838_f5731a1b38_b_d.jpg

The 8x10 misura is the most compact of all Arca Swiss 8x10" monorail cameras. It is sold with the additional orbix tilt control in front, whereas on F-classic and F-metric models this is an option either to be ordered in advance or to be fitted aferwards but you prabably don't want to send your camera for a 2x20,000 km return travel just for fitting another accessory next year ;)

Regarding a 360mm 6.8 Rodenstock lens, being a quasi-symmetrical design the flange-focal distance (between the lens board and the focal point) is about 360mm, no mystery. Hence you need at least ~400 mm = 40cm of rail length for landscape use. 40cm folding or telescopic rails exist in the A/S catalogue, but the reasonable standard rail for 8x10" is 50cm ; 40cm is more like for 5x7" use.
But when your camera has its bellows collapsed, you can certainly accommodate both standards and the mounted 360mm lens on a length of 25cm. Both standard could touch each other, so it depends only on the bellows that you have but the standard 8x10" bellows can be compressed to a few cm thick.
I do not have handy the overall thickness of a 360 Rodenstock lens, and I only use a 4x5" F-line camera, but I would be surprised if the mounted lens plus bellows plus both standards could not fit on a 25cm rail length : on the 8x10" misura, the front rail is much smaller than 25 cm, and both standards do fit properly; you can see how thin the bellows can be collapsed.

I'm sure that other readers on this forum will soon confirm for the minimum length of a "compressed" F-line camera.

[eric black]

For the minimum length- I had no problems using a 110mm Sch. SS-XL with my 8x10 F-line back in the day when I had one- the normal bellows compressed enough to use it and since you cant use any movements with that lens due to coverage, there was no real need for a bag-bellows. I can't comment on a 150mm focal length and how well that works as I never owned one- my next lens was a 210mm lens and I had no problems with movements using that lens and the regular bellows. I can also tell you I had no problems with my set up in a Super Trekker provided I kept lenses to a minimum. I used the telescopic rail mentioned above from my 4x5 (rail lengths of 15 cm) and just had the camera mounted to one of the halves which was removed from the rest of the rail system which I packed into my bag seperately.
great camera- Im thinking I want one again and shouldnt have sold mine.

[resummerfield]

I have the 8x10 F-Metric, which I carry collapsed on a 15cm rail. I also have a 40cm rail that fits on my 50cm optical bench. By sliding both rails outwards by about one half their length, I can extend the standards about 75cm with this setup.

[rohan hutchinson]

Hello from the other side of the planet !
(I actually live somewhat closer to the Arca Swiss European office than you: 5 minutes drive, not 20,000 km ;) )

Regarding the choice for a 8x10" Arca Swiss monorail camera, you have the F-classic with "collapsible" rail, I prefer the term "folding rail" like here
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/images/products/18.jpg
And you have the same models with a telescopic rail, made of smaller rails sliding above another long rail, like here
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/images/products/8.jpg

And you have the 8x10" misura which is the lightest of all 8x10" Arca Swiss monorail cameras. This model will be discussed later.

As far as F-classic, F-metric and Monolith cameras are concerned, you can refer to the Arca Swiss catalogue of year ~2000,
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ARCA.pdf

The only difference for 8x10" cameras in 2010 is that the front standard is now smaller, 141x141 mm, not 171x171 like before ~ 2004. But you can find a second-hand F-line camera with 171x171 standards, the corresponding bellows are still available as spare parts from the manufacturer.

The F-metric is a variant of the F-classic with geared, self-locking rise and shift controls, the F-metric function carriers incorporate a built-il lateral shift control (a gear-controlled precision sliding dovetail) and are heavier that the F-classic carriers where you simply shift & clamp the moving standard manually.
You also have the Monolith range of cameras with all geared self-locking controls including tilts & swings but this is definitely the heaviest of all.

The 8x10" misura is lighter than the others because the rear function carrier has no tilts and no swings.

Regarding rail lengths:
- with the folding rail, a 50cm rail is hinged in the middle and folds into a 25cm length, this is the Compact version. You can add an extension rail in front, up to 25 cm, total = 75cm.

- with the telescopic rail, you have two independant halves, for example 2 times 25 cm, sliding into another rail, underneath, 50cm long. By sliding both rails outwards by one half, i.e. 12.5cm, the maximum rail length is 75 cm (12.5+ 50 + 12.5) ; for the folding rail of length 50 cm plus one extension of 25 = 75 cm, the same. Some people prefer the telescopic rail to the folding rail, this is a matter of taste and you can always change your rails to someting even longer.

People using the telescopic rail usually collapse the whole camera on the front rail, and take off the rear rail and the underneath 50 cm rail. Total thickness collapsed : 25 cm.
So you never have to disassemble the camera standards, you do not have to take the function carriers off the rails.
The surface taken by the rear standard in 8x10", no mystery, is the same as for any 8x10" camera : about 20x25 cm, plus something ;)

----------

The 8x10" misura has a special folding rail in two unequal halves, the rear half is longer and folds upwards, this makes the folded misura extremely compact, This images will explain all.
http://markhamjohnson.blogspot.com/2008/05/arca-swiss-misura-8x10_05.html
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1084/4730679838_f5731a1b38_b_d.jpg

The 8x10 misura is the most compact of all Arca Swiss 8x10" monorail cameras. It is sold with the additional orbix tilt control in front, whereas on F-classic and F-metric models this is an option either to be ordered in advance or to be fitted aferwards but you prabably don't want to send your camera for a 2x20,000 km return travel just for fitting another accessory next year ;)

Regarding a 360mm 6.8 Rodenstock lens, being a quasi-symmetrical design the flange-focal distance (between the lens board and the focal point) is about 360mm, no mystery. Hence you need at least ~400 mm = 40cm of rail length for landscape use. 40cm folding or telescopic rails exist in the A/S catalogue, but the reasonable standard rail for 8x10" is 50cm ; 40cm is more like for 5x7" use.
But when your camera has its bellows collapsed, you can certainly accommodate both standards and the mounted 360mm lens on a length of 25cm. Both standard could touch each other, so it depends only on the bellows that you have but the standard 8x10" bellows can be compressed to a few cm thick.
I do not have handy the overall thickness of a 360 Rodenstock lens, and I only use a 4x5" F-line camera, but I would be surprised if the mounted lens plus bellows plus both standards could not fit on a 25cm rail length : on the 8x10" misura, the front rail is much smaller than 25 cm, and both standards do fit properly; you can see how thin the bellows can be collapsed.

I'm sure that other readers on this forum will soon confirm for the minimum length of a "compressed" F-line camera.


Thank-you so much for your help,as you could imagine it is very frustrating buying a new camera without having to look at it.
I just checked my horseman 8x10 out and i took it off the telescopic rail and it seems to fit on a 15cm rail with a240mm rodenstock lens on it. Even though the 360 will be bigger i am not to concerned with taking the lens board off as i will need another bag to carry darkslides e.t.c. So i think i will see if i can add a extention rail to the 30cm colapsible rail. this will enable me to keep it on the collapsible in my backpack and just add the extension once set up.
thankyou again you saved me from making a big mistake.

[rohan hutchinson]

I have the 8x10 F-Metric, which I carry collapsed on a 15cm rail. I also have a 40cm rail that fits on my 50cm optical bench. By sliding both rails outwards by about one half their length, I can extend the standards about 75cm with this setup.

thank you for all you help, so i take it the camera will fit fine on a 15cm rail, so it seems, well hopefully i can just add a extension rail to the 30cm collapsible and keep it on the collapsible then when setting up just add the extension. well hopefully
thanks again

[rohan hutchinson]

For the minimum length- I had no problems using a 110mm Sch. SS-XL with my 8x10 F-line back in the day when I had one- the normal bellows compressed enough to use it and since you cant use any movements with that lens due to coverage, there was no real need for a bag-bellows. I can't comment on a 150mm focal length and how well that works as I never owned one- my next lens was a 210mm lens and I had no problems with movements using that lens and the regular bellows. I can also tell you I had no problems with my set up in a Super Trekker provided I kept lenses to a minimum. I used the telescopic rail mentioned above from my 4x5 (rail lengths of 15 cm) and just had the camera mounted to one of the halves which was removed from the rest of the rail system which I packed into my bag seperately.
great camera- Im thinking I want one again and shouldnt have sold mine.

This is great all sorted thanks again, As i have been travelling using a horseman 8x10 lx, and it is 10kg+ it is going to be so good to get a lighter camera togeather
thanks again

[rohan hutchinson]

also any advice on what tripod head as i need a new one, it is going on a gitzo, and not to heavy i was thinking of the arca swiss z1 sp, but also a friend has a really right stuff that he was suggesting?

[Darren H]

Rohan, as others have said use the 30cm folding or get a 15cm piece to slide both standards to it and it should fit in a LowePro. I have the Discovery with 171mm frames and that works well.

Arca-Z1 ballhead is an excellent choice, RRS BH-55, and maybe a Kirk BH-1. I use the Kirk BH-1 with the Discovery and it does a decent job. I think the Z-1 Arca has better specs though and with an 8x10 I'd be really tempted to go that way.

Good luck with the Arca, it is a great system!

[Dominique Cesari]

I second resummerfield to carry the camera on a 15 cm rail and to affix it on a longer optical bench (40 cm for me) and a long rail. I began with a 30 cm collapsible rail, and was not pleased when combined with the 25 cm extension for lenses over 240 mm.
On the 15 cm rail you can only use a 110 Xl or 120 mm, it works well with normal bellows but only with absolutely no movements, you will want a short bench (8,5 cm) for compactness though a long one could do it. For 150/210 mm, you need a bellows bag, as the normal bellows are too stiff and allow very minimal movements.

[rohan hutchinson]

Thanks for the advice Dominique, Why were you not happy with the collapsible rail with the extender????
Also i will be using it with a 240mm and 360mm, and will be shooting 4x5 as well as 8x10.
Does anyone know were you can go check one out in a showroom as everywhere seems to be a special order, I am thinking I will have to fly to france.
Any ideas?

[Dominique Cesari]

Rohan,
The collapsible rail is OK alone, but the limit is a 240 mm lens at infinity. Above, you will have to add the extender. It's tolerable in 4x5 as you probably don't need long draw too often, and the set is not too heavy. With a 8x10 camera, depending on your way to shoot, you may be exposed to need the extender more than 2/3 of pictures. As the he collapsible rail and the junction to the extender are made, you can't slip them in a long optical bench. So you have in hands a long bit of articulated rail, a not long bench, and the whole not optimal to balance and stand firmly ont the tripod. However, it's manageable, and when I used it I added a small bench supported by a walking stick.

[Don7x17]

Rohan
I actually have a pair of Arca 8x10's - the first FC purchased in 1991, without orbix or metric. It packs quit well on a short section of rail. The second FC is the newer version of the FC. Both with 171x171 lens boards, which is needed for some of the larger lenses I use.
Good thing you are purchasing it new - the rail you receive (and the bridge you should be ordering as well) will be for the newer "thick rail" with the tightener slot inside the rail bottom of the rail (quit visible on the end of the thick rail). The older F and FC models had very thin (and wimpy with heavier lenses unless it was in a bridge) rail that had no slot, and the bridges were tightened with compression clamps on the sides rather than the 1/2 turn screw on the bottom of the rail. So if you are going to find any rail, etc on the used market, make sure its compatible with your new Arca rail.

Best to you and your new Arca. You won't regret the purchase.
Don

[rohan hutchinson]

hey thanks for the advice, still not sure about the 30cm collapible rail with the extender, i am thinking i might take flight to the states and have a look at one at percision camera, as I could get my tax back on it flying home, which would pretty much pay for the flight, also i would not have to pay import duties. I am about a month away from getting one, and god my horseman seem so big and heavy now as I used it the other day.
anyway thanks again all of you for you help.

[RK_LFteacher]

Photomark in Phoenix has many Arca cameras in stock.
I will send you some info if you email me your snail mail address, on how to better use the Arca system.
I teach large format photography and many of my students use Arca cameras.
Rod