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goamules
21-Jun-2010, 08:22
I was looking more closely at this early, quarterplate Lerebours et Secretan lens today, and noticed a glint of something at the edge of the rear glass. At first I thought it was a miniscule edge chip I'd not noticed before.

Then I looked closer....and closer... finally through a loupe. They had engraved the serial number on the glass face, not the usual French practice of pen/pencil marking on the ground edge itself. The number matches the barrel, a cool discovery about these earliest of makers (it's pre 1855). White thing in photo is a grain of rice for scale. Lerebours owners, better go check your glass.

http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/lerebour9046.jpg

http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/LERE2.JPG

Jon Wilson
21-Jun-2010, 08:26
That is cool Garrett. I will have to check mine which is about the same FL as yours. Do you have a list of their serial numbers/years? Jon

goamules
21-Jun-2010, 08:38
No, I wish I had a serial number list. My research shows they made lenses from 1845 to 1855, but I need to research more to be sure.

goamules
23-Jun-2010, 12:36
I just checked another, larger Lerebours et Secretan I have, it's serial number is also engraved in tiny script on the rear glass. They are ~4000 numbers apart, I have to believe this was a process Lerebours followed. Anyone else check theirs?

Jon Wilson
23-Jun-2010, 22:27
I just checked another, larger Lerebours et Secretan I have, it's serial number is also engraved in tiny script on the rear glass. They are ~4000 numbers apart, I have to believe this was a process Lerebours followed. Anyone else check theirs?

I checked mine which is about 210mm and it too has serial numbers engraved on the front and back lens. Serial #89xx

Jon

Steven Tribe
24-Jun-2010, 01:34
This is all very interesting! Could this be an etching (strong acid) rather than engraving? The risks of loosing many days work would otherwise seem to great?

eddie
24-Jun-2010, 03:58
mine look like engraving.

Steven Tribe
24-Jun-2010, 04:47
Yes Eddie, the digits look too deep - miniscule diamond drill perhaps? The 0 looks too round for normal engraving techniques?

goamules
24-Jun-2010, 06:28
And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?

Here is another one of mine:

http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/lerebour_engraved5038.jpg

Paul Fitzgerald
24-Jun-2010, 20:44
"And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?"

Rampant counterfeiting, it would be difficult the fake the engraving on the glass

eddie
26-Jun-2010, 03:52
"And now, a challenge: why do you think it was important to serialize the glass along with the barrel?"

Rampant counterfeiting, it would be difficult the fake the engraving on the glass

huh? just engrave the counterfeit glass as well! easy.

Steven Tribe
26-Jun-2010, 06:27
Not that easy! You would need a drive axel from a hand/steam-driven engine as well as a very fine diamond drill.

goamules
29-Jul-2010, 10:26
I was examining my Jamin (pre-Darlot) Cone Centralizer lens (serial 11xx) and discovered a tiny script signature on the edge of the rear glass. So it appears it was not just Lerebours that engraved the glass, though in the Jamin it is signed with his name, not the serial number.

Interestingly, I read that Lerebours and Alphonse Darlot knew each other. I don't know what year Darlot started working with Jamin, but I bet one influenced the other with the engraving idea.

http://www.collodion.com/forum/uploads/688/SIGNED2.JPG

evan clarke
29-Jul-2010, 12:05
I think they needed to keep the parts organized...EC

Steven Tribe
29-Jul-2010, 13:32
Perhaps this engraving of the outer surface of the outer lens at the rear of the Petzval was basically to ensure that the pair was assembled correctly - either in the original workshop - or after cleaning? The air space does pick up a lot of dust during the years. We all have seen Petzvals that have two lenses switched or reversed. Jamin has a nice short name - but Lerebours et Secretan would have filled almost half the diameter, hence the serial number use? So I think evan may be correct!

goamules
25-Aug-2014, 08:44
Here is a photo of one of my Lerebours again. The number matches the serial number on the barrel.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/14846043939_66f8421d90_b.jpg

Steven Tribe
23-Aug-2016, 07:12
I have some new information about surface edge serial numbers, which may also shed some light on Lerebours & Secretan's history.

I purchased a half plate Petzval in the UK a couple of years ago, engraved JFS. Did not look to much at it until last weekend.
I knew that it has the usual french style indian ink " Paris" and the same serial number as on the barrel "6477"? In addition, there is a pencil text "JFS".

I assumed this was an early "No name" french import made by J.F.Shew of London when he just an retail and selling agent.
The most likely date was just before 1860, as this was without a WH stop. I have another french lens, similarly without WHS, sold in 1859 or 1860 by Gilbert Fleming who only had his shop at New Oxford Street for these years. Perhaps the french makers were down-loading their surplus non WHS lenses at this time in the UK market?

Anyway, as you have guessed, this JFS lens has a complete set of rice engraving on the two outside glass surfaces. THey are completely identical to those on L&S as shown earlier in this thread. The number is the same as on the lens sides and the engraved number on the barrel.

I am inclined to think that the number is part of the L&S serial number sequence, rather than representing Shew's endeavours. The number matches where L&S would got to in the late 1850's. Unless someone has a "real" L&S with 6477 serial number?

goamules
23-Aug-2016, 11:51
Good find Steven! Another Lerebours, I'd say.

Two23
23-Aug-2016, 15:33
Superb detective work!


Kent in SD

Steven Tribe
24-Aug-2016, 12:38
More news for historical intrested.

It is not only the rear meniscus lens that has the edge scratched with the serial, the front surface of the inner concave/Convex is also marked in the same way. At least on my JFS/L&S 6477.

Steven Tribe
11-Mar-2017, 04:22
I am now the owner of JFS (Lerebours?) serial number 6425, which is a pill box type landscape achromat. This was also a major product from Lerebours in the 1850's.

Wrongly listed as Magic Lantern and JES engraving. Will it also have the lens edge scratched serial numbers?
More info in a week.

For the very interested, here is the link.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-E-S-OLD-BRASS-LENS-MAGIC-LANTERN-CAMERA-AS-IS-SPARES-OR-REPAIRS-/352002427415?hash=item51f4faca17:g:EGgAAOSwuxFYw7Ju

Two23
11-Mar-2017, 10:40
Isn't this a Petzval with a missing element?


Kent in SD

Steven Tribe
11-Mar-2017, 12:32
No, I don't think so.

The inner barrel is quite short. There is a thread cut inside the open front end, so it hasn't been shortened. The seller described the rear lens as a single lens.

THere are three different landscape designs shown in D'Agostini's book, which have a screw-in plate with the front washer stop arrangement.
The example illustrated on page 239 is particularly interesting as it has a serial number just 3 away from my JFS. That is, 6422 rather than 6425.


The serial number is also only 50 or so away from the other JF Shew lens I have, which could mean that he got hold of a restrcted number of these. Shew was very much a one man business in the 1850's and I doubt he could have reached this serial number, unless he just used the lens scratched numbers from Lerebours to make the brass engraving serial number.

Steven Tribe
15-Mar-2017, 02:40
The J.F.Shew/Lerebours & Secretan landscape meniscus lens arrived to-day. The edge scratches noted by the seller are, indeed the "rice" numerals and match the sleeve engraved numbers. There is not enough thread at the front to screw-in a lens cell due to the racking track, so it once had an end plate with pill box.

As I wrote in another thread on Maugey, a 1850's catalogue/advert for J.F.Shew exists , where he says he has imported Lerebours and Maugey for sale in London.

The threads on the two JFS lenses are identical which means only one flange is necessary and the petzval achromat can be used as an extra long landscape lens.

goamules
15-Mar-2017, 10:48
Very good analysis and find!

russyoung
15-Mar-2017, 15:02
162620

The smaller lens, #3636, has the matching number on the glass but on the inside of the rear element... couldn't find it then finally examined with a magnifier in raking sunlight and voila! At 6x, it appears to be engraved or scratched onto the glass.

Thus far, I haven't found it on the larger lens #7927.

Russ

Steven Tribe
15-Mar-2017, 15:18
A reversed rear lens perhaps on the smaller one?

I read the larger one as 2729. I think this is made in the period before his fetish with edge engraving began. Later Lerebours' (9,000?) are also without edge scratchings. Later: serial no. 8941 has lens scratchings as the highest number known at present.

russyoung
16-Mar-2017, 15:16
I wondered the same thing, Steven. The lens throws an image of about the proper focal length and it is quite sharp - as it is currently assembled, which seems to indicate a correctly oriented element. Is there an error in my logic?

Russ

Steven Tribe
16-Mar-2017, 16:37
Some Petzval bl - convexes have very similar curves. I'll measure up my lerebourses tomorrow.

But there is a big difference. The flatter side points outwards.

Perhaps of relevence is a recently sold Lerebours et Secretan. This seemed to have two sets of 4 digit numbers on the rear face. This is a lens I didn't bid on as the front achromat surface looked unserviceable, unfortunately. I asked him about the numbers - thinking replacement. It turned out it was the same (correct serial number) 4 digit number, engraved on both sides of the lens. I'll try and find a photo from the listing.

It was Lerebours 6821.
If you look at photo no. 7, you will see the two sets of rear digits at the bottom. I was drawn to this as the outer number looks like it has been done by another method than the usual diamond pen - there are curves, rather than straight lines. The internal number is "standard scratching"! Quality control found this, at least!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Lerebours-et-Secretan-Paris-brass-lens-approx-7-5-034-vintage-camera-old-/132115007237?ul_noapp=true&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F0%252Fe11051.m43.l1123%252F7%253Feuid%253Dc2b9dd1e27ae499b8853c27a0c9d4e3d%2526bu%253D43161594393%2526loc%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fitm%25252F132115007237%2526sojTags%253Dbu%253Dbu%2526srcrot%253De11051.m43.l1123%2526rvr_id%253D0&nma=true&si=8Uy4xNax77m%252FqF4ThwH0ap1E4Pg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Later!

I have just had some correspondence with our "exclusive" Parisian shop owner. One of his items is a non-serial number Lerebours. I could see 4 equally spaced edge marks on his rear lens photo that looked very much like they could be the "four digits". I asked him to check, but "no there is nothing there". So then I sent him some of the photos from this thread. 30 minutes later he replied that they were there after all and the number was 4655 - about 1855 period. So (some) plain Lerebours barrels have concealed serial numbers.

russyoung
22-Mar-2017, 19:09
Steven, I examined the rear element and the side facing towards the film is almost flat... so it seems to be oriented correctly.

Russ

Steven Tribe
8-Oct-2017, 10:31
Another JFS imported Lerebours lens to-day on the bay. Exactly the same petzval that I have!
This one has a slightly later serial number (They use Lerebours serial number series) 7081.

I think this is near the end of lens edge numbering - or perhaps just after it stopped.

Obviously, it is now general knowledge that J.F. Shew got his lenses from Lerebours so my bid was well under two others.
If the winner sees this, it would nice to know whether the lens marking had ceased? Ebay 292276743237.

paulbarden
7-Feb-2018, 19:04
I have a 15" f5 Lerebours et Secretan lens I acquired recently, serial No. 7799, with matching numbers engraved on the front and rear elements. Any of you more knowledgeable folks have an idea what year this might have been made?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4750/39163781255_2e229925e2_b.jpg

Steven Tribe
8-Feb-2018, 02:27
I'll get back to you on this! I await the arrival of the Le reve edition booklet on Lerebours which has just been published in France. I don't know whether it will add to our knowledge about serial numbers, dates and lens scratching, but it might!

Your lens was one of the last to get the lens marking treatment - it was gone by 7900! Not true - see serial number list later in this thread!

Is that the original aperture cup inserted in the lens hood? Most of these were discarded when Waterhouse stops were added after 1860.

paulbarden
8-Feb-2018, 07:30
I'll get back to you on this! I await the arrival of the Le reve edition booklet on Lerebours which has just been published in France. I don't know whether it will add to our knowledge about serial numbers, dates and lens scratching, but it might!

Your lens was one of the last to get the lens marking treatment - it was gone by 7900!

Is that the original aperture cup inserted in the lens hood? Most of these were discarded when Waterhouse stops were added after 1860.

Thanks for anything you can add to my knowledge of its history, Steven!
And yes, that is the original aperture cup in the lens hood! Amazingly, the felt is in remarkably good condition as well. After 160 years, the odds of a lens like this surviving at all is astonishing, never mind in such good shape, and with most of its parts!

The lens flares pretty easily, which is to be expected, but renders beautiful values and sharpness when used as a wet plate lens: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4725/27734527989_0407d30279_b.jpg

Steven Tribe
8-Feb-2018, 08:01
I think it was only Hermagis and Lerebours who used these insert cup apertures. These two may have had some informal co-operation as I have one of each from the same period (late 1850's) and the same size, which are identical in every dimension. The only difference is that Lerebours used a finer thread than Hermagis on lens cells and brass hoods.

goamules
9-Feb-2018, 11:21
Derogy and Jamin used them too, If you are talking about the internal fitting that supported a washer-like stop.

Steven Tribe
9-Feb-2018, 12:27
The construction is similar to the between lens insert (which was replaced by the WHS system) and echos the pill box stop system. But it is a cup system - pushed inside the brass hood - which has a mount for various sized washer stops just in front of the front achromat.

It is not surprising that most of these have been lost or thrown away.

You can see the edge of the Lerebours cup in post #32 - with the pipe wrench marks!

My smaller, no number, Hermagis is below , showing construction

paulbarden
9-Feb-2018, 18:54
This is the “cup stop” insert from my Lerebours 15”
174547 from the front.

174548 rear view.

The velvet inside the hood is still intact and in surprisingly good condition, for its age! (160 years, give or take)

Steven Tribe
10-Feb-2018, 01:31
This has exactly the same profile as the Hermagis cup I have. I think "cup insert" is a good term for them, although I have never seen any written description of the system! Mine has the original felt seal/bearing too.

paulbarden
10-Feb-2018, 07:52
This has exactly the same profile as the Hermagis cup I have. I think "cup insert" is a good term for them, although I have never seen any written description of the system! Mine has the original felt seal/bearing too.

Steve,
I’ve seen reference to it being called a “timber stop” also, but I have no idea if this is correct.

Steven Tribe
12-Feb-2018, 09:41
Well, I received the P et P booklet covering Lerebours et Secretan. It is at least as comprehensive as any of the other sections I have seen. This is just a short reference relating to things taken up in this thread, I'll come back later with more!


1. Believe it or not- but our French friends have not discovered the micro scratching of seriai numbers on lenses which existed for a long period in the 1850's.

2. The cup inserts we have described here are called "Diaphragme emboite". They date this system as being from before 1855 and the central washer system as post 1855. And Waterhouse stops after 1860.

3. Serial numbers and Dates.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them is 2012 and highest is 12609!

Steven Tribe
12-Feb-2018, 09:51
I think this serial number list will push back quite a lot of your Lerebours lenses to the 1840's!

paulbarden
12-Feb-2018, 10:09
Well, I received the P et P booklet covering Lerebours et Secretan. It is at least as comprehensive as any of the other sections I have seen. This is just a short reference relating to things taken up in this thread, I'll come back later with more!


1. Believe it or not- but our French friends have not discovered the micro scratching of seriai numbers on lenses which existed for a long period in the 1850's.

2. The cup inserts we have described here are called "Diaphragme emboite". They date this system as being from before 1855 and the central washer system as post 1855. And Waterhouse stops after 1860.

3. Serial numbers and Dates.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them is 2012 and highest is 12609!

Thanks Steven! Great info. I was told my lens #7799 was mid-1850s so this confirms it.
PS: what is the P et P booklet?

Steven Tribe
12-Feb-2018, 10:16
Voila!

http://lereveedition.com/fr/

paulbarden
12-Feb-2018, 11:14
Voila!

http://lereveedition.com/fr/

Merci!

Amedeus
12-Feb-2018, 13:18
Voila!

http://lereveedition.com/fr/


Very worthwhile and highly recommended, just got my Lerebours, Hermagis, Berthiot and Jamin/Darlot booklets ...

Cheers,

paulbarden
12-Feb-2018, 15:22
Voila!

http://lereveedition.com/fr/

So, by my estimation this 24 page "booklet" costs nearly fifty bucks USD, with shipping, is that correct? And it appears there is no English language option? But two people already have vouched for its merit.... Its worth it, is it?

Steven Tribe
12-Feb-2018, 15:38
It is a variety of what used to be called "subscription publication" in Victorian times. Just 100 examples of each dedicated booklet. Obviously the price would less if there was a larger market available - but there isn't! It isn't a profit-making organisation!

A single old catalogue would cost more. The ones I have bought have certainly been useful.

Amedeus
12-Feb-2018, 17:17
So, by my estimation this 24 page "booklet" costs nearly fifty bucks USD, with shipping, is that correct? And it appears there is no English language option? But two people already have vouched for its merit.... Its worth it, is it?

It helps that I speak French of course but yes, it is easy to use the images and the tables in the publications.

Was indeed surprised that they didn't mention the glass engraving with the serial number. (And we know their serial number table is no longer correct for the Hermagis lens ... )

Cheers,

paulbarden
12-Feb-2018, 17:28
Thank you both, Steve and Rudi!

Steven Tribe
13-Feb-2018, 02:29
Not quite finished yet!

A longer read of the booklet reveals that the data about the company's production of photographic lenses is a bit thinner than some of the other major makers. There are plenty of illustrations but not so much supporting text. I suppose this is due to their early demise and shortage of different catalogues. I think the serial number/dates could be wrong by a couple of years around 1855.

The cup insert diaphragm system was in use before serial numbers were adopted. The example shown on page 234 of d'Agostini's book is without serial numbers but has a complete insert cup shown. D'Agostini talks about both lens barrel inserts and hood inserts.

I reproduce the tables of sizes for the 15" Petzval, so you can find yours! Note that Lerebours made three speeds for each basic lens diameter.

anachromatic
13-Feb-2018, 02:54
Not quite finished yet!

A longer read of the booklet reveals that the data about the company's production of photographic lenses is a bit thinner than some of the other major makers. There are plenty of illustrations but not so much supporting text. I suppose this is due to their early demise and shortage of different catalogues. I think the serial number/dates could be wrong by a couple of years around 1855.

The cup insert diaphragm system was in use before serial numbers were adopted. The example shown on page 234 of d'Agostini's book is without serial numbers but has a complete insert cup shown. D'Agostini talks about both lens barrel inserts and hood inserts.

I reproduce the tables of sizes for the 15" Petzval, so you can find yours! Note that Lerebours made three speeds for each basic lens diameter.

I think this diaphragm system is really early, it starts around 1843/early 1844.
It is an improvement introduced shortly after starting to produce Petzval lenses. Lerebours, quickly understood the need to control exposure times more accurately with this portrait lenses.

Jon Wilson
7-Mar-2018, 21:46
Have Lerebours et Secretan with FL 7 inches +/- with three lens all have matching sn 8941 as does the barrel. It also has the “washer” stop. it also has the metal lens cap. Any idea when this lens was made?

Jon Wilson
7-Mar-2018, 22:08
went back and reviewed the earlier posts and it appears my lens was made after 1855, but before 1860 since it uses the "washer" system.

Steven Tribe
8-Mar-2018, 05:53
You have the complete aperture cup assembley, and it it survived conversion to Waterhouse slot - not that common!

You also have the highest serial number with lens scratching (so far!). Nearer 1855 than 1860, I think.

monsta
8-Mar-2018, 08:28
I have a nice 300mm Lerebours but it vignettes a little at infinity on 8x10. I think it's the lens hood that is the problem. On mine it doesn't seem to want to screw off, any ideas how to get it free? Cheers, John

Steven Tribe
8-Mar-2018, 11:07
The range around 1853 was as follows.

Lens diameter 81mm

- 20cm 1/2 plate
-27cm. 16x22cm

Lens diameter 110mm

-30cm 16x22cm
-37cm. 16x22cm

Between 1855 and 1865 there were some additions:

Lens diameter 95mm

- 25cm 18x24cm
- 30cm 18x24cm

I don't think it is the lens hood, 30cm Petzval is generally considered as a full plate lens.

-

monsta
8-Mar-2018, 16:12
Thanks for the info Steven. Seems like it is not the hood then. Cheers.

Jon Wilson
8-Mar-2018, 16:35
Thank you Steven. I appreciate the benefit of your research. This one and my many Derory lens are some of my favorite.

Steven Tribe
9-Mar-2018, 16:23
I have been into this before on other threads but I think it has relevance here.

I have read that Lerebours was plagued by counterfeit lenses - wish I could remember where! But I have never seen any. There were three lenses with apart engravings last year with the same retailer name added. My conclusion was eventually that these must have done by special arrangement with Lerebours as anything else matched with genuine lenses.

So if there were no typical forgeries, why did Lerebours complain about counterfeits?
I think the answer is Vallantin. He started an independent production of lenses after having being employed at Lerebours from 1840 to 1856. He had the nerve to engrave his brass sleeves with this information and with "Lerebours" written in rather large script. As Vallantin was making the same range of Petzvals and Meniscus lenses as Lerebours, this would probably have been considered by Lerebours as an gross affront. This was made worse by a man called Colas living in London and making sliding box cameras importing Vallantin lenses (with ink lens edge identification) and engraving them "Colas eleve de Lerebours, Paris" - so a "Lerebours" twice removed. It looks like Vallantin gave up engraving his lenses for a 'time" - under pressure from the powerful Lerebours, perhaps? - and then went over to plain "Vallantin".

How is this relevant here? Well, I would suggest that the date of Vallantin leaving Lerebours in 1856 and the start of his provocative engraving ( 1856 or 1857) was the reason for Lerebours's anger and resulted in his extreme decision to serial mark all his component lenses. So lens scratching starts in 1856/7 and probably ends when Vallentin falls into line.

By the way, as this knowledge of lens marking has been lost for over a century, I suggest we call these lens marks "Garrett marks" after the OP!

Later: It appears that lens scratching marks existed well before Vallantin's departure from Lerebours, as there is a very early engraved serial number (2113) which has these marks. The present date for the start of serial numbers is 1845 with a probable start at a very low 20xx!

Steven Tribe
9-May-2018, 03:24
Another lens scratched number from Lerebours et Secretan. 6582. It looks as though it is just a single surface edge that is marked. But I'll check later to see if there are others behind the dirt/mount. This one has Waterhouse stops installed. Done well, but a different style from an obvious ex-maker one I have which is a few years later 8648.

And then there is the other L & S Petzval I got to-day! This is as early as serial no. 2113. This has lens engraving too. It is only on the inside lens surface of both cells, so is not nearly as apparent as the later outside surface markings. This pushes the start of Lerebours concerns back to 1846 or 1845.

Steven Tribe
10-May-2018, 01:47
Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

Steven Tribe
12-May-2018, 06:10
This an attempt to put some order into known Lerebours et Secretan lenses in terms of consecutive serial numbers and (hopefully) some dates. Confirmed foreign agent sales (just J.F.Shew of London at the moment) will also included when there is a serial number.

This is the current most reliable allocation of serial numbers to dates. The start at 2,000 looks realistic and the production (Under different names) before 1845 could have been around 2,000.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them (Pont et Princelle) is 2012 and highest is 12609! So total production is around 10,000 lenses with serial numbers.

Sources include lenses mentioned in this thread, auction records, own lenses, Corrado's book and the lenses illustrated in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Lenses without descriptions are Petzvals. SRC means lens scratching identified! Cup means the presence (or evidence) of the insert washer stop system.

1845
XXXXno serial number. ordinary Petzval - late WHS but full engraving retained. Antiq photo paris.
2012 mentioned by P et P - but not shown
2046 Mounted achromat from 81mm Petzval. SRC first example?
2113 1/2 plate size SRC
2125. Complex lid landscape
2140. cup landscape (variant type)
2323. verre combine design cup
2708. Complex lid landscape
3237 small petzval no WHS
3492. cup
3636
3811.
4008. cup - later WHS -ebay listing
4093. cup
4381. small petzval. SCR ( Digits are more separated than later serial numbers and larger - visable on Ebay listing feb 2019
4391. cup (ebay listing)Fabrice
4437 Pill box landscape
4655
4664. 1/2 plate Petzval no WHS ( so sold with cup aperture system)
4675 Petzval SPIRA COLLECTION - rear group scratched with 4668
4993 Petzval no WHS (cup aperture lost) antiq-photo paris

1850?

5250. 1/2 plate Whs
5334 cup
5541. cup
5685. petzval SPIRA collection SCR
There is a very big gap here. Considering that we know that Lerebours used alternative sales after this period, I think that perhaps most of these missing numbers were used in a way that has yet to be discovered
6422. Pill box landscape
6426. J.F.Shew import landscape SCR
6477. J.F.Shew import SCR
6582. Whs. Single surface with SCR. Rear cell splits into two sections. No Lerebours
writing but achromat has clear pencil writing " Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street
London 61+2". Must be 1855 or earlier as company was short lived.
6628. J.F.Shew SPIRA Collection
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018 3 lens surfaces have
SCR
6821. both sides of the same rear lens have SCR. No WH Slot. 1/4 plate size.
6984. small landscape SCR
7081. J.F.Shew import
7093 Identical landscape with pill box - same as 6426. antik-photo paris.
7492. petzval no added WHS SCR ( both surfaces of same lens) Lens hood/cup insert lost
7556. large petzval SCR but different numbers 7815 added WHStops.
7696. hood lost
7799. cup & seal intact SCR
7815. see serial number 7556
7927. Whs

1855?

8169. 1/4 plate. hood & cup insert present. No WHS. Ebay august 2018.
8247. Pill box landscape
8249. Whs
8323. cup
8454. cup engraved with dealer "john Mawson Newcastle" so it passed through his hands before 1860 as he formed a partnership with Joseph Swan in 1860.*
8519. no Whs!
8572. landscape
8648. whs
8813 stereo Petzval SCR
8816. stereo Landscape SCR
8916. cup
8941. cup
9436. pill box landscape
9442. cup and SCR
9675. landscape cup
9764. pill box landscape
9783. small Petzval SCR
98(37?) pill box landscape ebay risting
10127. stereoset landscape cup
10402. cup
10536. Large pill box Landscape SCR
10855. pill box landscape

1860?

11358. Whs
11569. Whs
11773. Whs
11779. Whs
12006
12103. Whs
12157 pill box landscape
12309. pill box landscape antiq photo paris
12334. pill box landscape
12609

* John Mawson was blown up in a nitro-glicerene explosion outside Newcastle (He was also Sheriff of Newcastle) when supervising its disposal in December 1867!. Joseph Swan (the junior partner) became a major contributer to wet-plate, bromide papers, carbon printing etc. He also beat Edison by a year in his electric light bulb patent!

I think it is clear from the distribution of serial numbers after about 1850, that Lerebours did not produce very many lenses for a period - at least the brasswork. It looks like he could still produce glass - or had a good stock of lenses. These appear to have "dumped" on the nearest big market - London - which was without the political problems in France. We know about J.F.Shew and Bland & Long, but there are likely others to be discovered.

Amedeus
14-May-2018, 13:08
Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

Andrew Plume
14-May-2018, 13:56
I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

Steven Tribe
15-May-2018, 00:41
I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

I would find it difficult not to hang onto a lens from 1846! I have 2113 now and it is going nowhere!

Steven Tribe
15-May-2018, 00:56
Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

Added.

I am leaning towards the conclusion that the cup front washer system was available (perhaps standard) until their demise around 1863. I have been unable to see a standard system of cutting out the Waterhouse rectangle in the barrel sleeve - even for those made after 1860. Lens scratching started as early as no. 2113 (with an accepted start of production serial numbers at ca. 2001) and there is quite late example on the list! There are six surfaces to check on a Petzval and some have only one or two sides marked.

Steven Tribe
27-May-2018, 03:11
This, I think, is an interesting development concerning serial number 6582 - which I mentioned in post #61.

This has a very acceptible engraving and the single lens scratch marking matches with the serial number.

I did a strip and clean to-day and was very surprised. There were no edge pencil marks relating to Lerebours. There were some darker areas which suggested that there had been markings early on. On the front achromat, written in an unusually neat script was "Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street London. 61 +2". This is unlikely to be the name of the name of a repair company as Long left the company around 1856.

In addition there were a couple of anomalies. The rear cell can be split into two halves - each with a mounted lens and the distance ring is permantly mounted. I happen to have the same sized Petzval from Lerebours no.8646. The glass is the same along with the distance between the cells, but barrel is a couple of mms. less in diameter in "Bland Long" version. Similarly, threads are not the same (imperial vs. metric?) and the hood is not so prominent on the "Bland Long". Now Lerebours made good brass, but I have to say that the "Bland Long" has quite superb threads - even after 160 years. I also happen to have a CdeV Bland lens from a bit later in the 1850's and quality and finish is the same as the Bland and Long Lerebours.

Now we already know that J.F.Shew was selling complete Lerebours lenses at the same time (and serial numbers) in London. Perhaps Bland and Long had brass manufacture facilities that could help Lerebours with some extra manufacture and sales during "problems" in France?

So perhaps the scenario is:

Lenses made in France, serial number scratched there. Sent to London. Bland and Long make the brass (deviating slightly from Lerebours traditions!) add the company name. Sleeve engraving added in France. Sold in London?

Amedeus
31-Jul-2018, 13:01
Acquired a front achromat in cell with hood with serial rice writing of 2064. There's a lot of dark mass evidence writing on edge of the element but nothing that is readable any longer. There's absolutely no separation, so most likely this one has been re-cemented a few times over life. Diameter is 80.7mm, qualifies as an 81mm cell in my book.

The soldered-in barrel was clearly sheared off, I'm assuming the back-end didn't survive ...

Must have been a good size Petzval in the days ;-)

Edit: that would be a very early example of rice writing ????

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
31-Jul-2018, 13:35
Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for people who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

Remember that the achromats used in landscape lenses and the front cell in Petzvals were identical. 81mm was a popular size for Lerebours and most serial numbers in the 2000's are Landscapes - so perhaps the achromat was used in a UK landscape lens around 1846?

Amedeus
31-Jul-2018, 13:41
Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

We may be talking about the same lens, I'll take a closer look to check if my 0 is your 9 ... ;-)

There were a few manufacturers with 81mm diameter cells ...

Steven Tribe
31-Jul-2018, 14:05
Yes, I think so! My opinion was asked and it was given!
81mm and some other sizes were standard across the French makers in the late 40's 50's and 60's. Most of them had worked at another maker first and obviously copied Voigtlander's range early in the 40's.

goamules
31-Jul-2018, 19:19
...I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork....

I highly doubt 1840s and 50s French companies of the renoun of Lerebours et Secretan were using UK brass fitters. They, and other French optics makers, had been around a lot longer than most early British lens makers. And you can tell the french brass work from the British.

Steven Tribe
1-Aug-2018, 01:40
I highly doubt 1840s and 50s French companies of the renoun of Lerebours et Secretan were using UK brass fitters. They, and other French optics makers, had been around a lot longer than most early British lens makers. And you can tell the french brass work from the British.

We have no disagreements about this! All I am saying is that Lerebours glass has ended up in brass mounts which are quite different from the French traditions of the 1840's and 1850's. There were plenty of UK brass instruments in the UK who, perhaps, didn't have access to experienced glass lens grinders and polishers. It appears there are two periods when Lerebours was a supplier of glass to others. Just after 1845, with serial numbers above 2000. Then mid 1850's, with serial numbers above 6000. The 1840's makers have yet to be identified, but the 1850's group include Shew and Bland.

goamules
1-Aug-2018, 06:07
Where did you get the data about those two periods? Is it documented or published during the period, or just conjecture today? Why do you quote the 4000 and 6000 serial numbers? Is there documentation that Lerebours supplied glass lenses, and were those glass lenses for telescopes, microscopes, or actual photographic lenses?

your quote: "It appears there are two periods when Lerebours was a supplier of glass to others. Just after 1845, with serial numbers above 2000. Then mid 1850's, with serial numbers above 6000. The 1840's makers have yet to be identified, but the 1850's group include Shew and Bland."

I may not be understanding, but it sounds like you are saying "any Lerebours et Secretan above 2000 serial number (to what higher number?) was put into British brass fittings." But that can't be right, or I'd have to have proof. Do you mean, instead, "my hypothesis is some British lens makers used Lerebours brass"...? If so, why confuse the matter with serial numbers, which everyone will take to mean those on Lerebours. The internet becomes a big "reference library" for most people. If they read your post, they will start repeating that "any Lerebours above xxx is in British fittings..." which I don't believe there is any proof or reason to believe.

goamules
1-Aug-2018, 06:13
I'm rereading this thread. In your post 61 you mention another lens you found with a scratched serial number. But it's a mistake to assume that mark was only made by Lerebours. There are other possibilities:

1. Other makers could have done the tiny "rice writing" at times
2. A Lerebours glass element could have been inserted by some owner (not the Lerbours or any other factory) to replace a broken lens

I have a Jamin Cone Centralizer with some tiny scratched writing on it's lens also. That could mean either Jamin did it at times (he did learn lens making from Lerebours after all) Or that someone replaced the lens in my Jamin with a Lerebours. Or, I suppose, that Lerebours made lenses for Jamin... See what I mean? We can hypothesize any number of reasons for these cases.

Steven Tribe
1-Aug-2018, 13:06
In post #18 in this thread, you considered that J.F.Shew lenses from the mid 1850 did have Lerebours glass.

They have been included in the serial number list for some time. There is advertising copy that J.F.Shew sold Lerebours lenses.

The earlier orphan scratched lenses (starting from around serial number 2000 - 1845) look exactly like the "standard" lerebours system.
At this date, Lerebours did not have the status it had later in the century so it did not have a reputation to defend. All sales were important.
I doubt there will be any documentary evidence forecoming which will confirm these early use of Lerebours lenses by others.

goamules
1-Aug-2018, 18:02
OK, thanks. I'm getting old, and forgetting more than I ever knew. Wait...is that possible?

anachromatic
2-Aug-2018, 02:05
In post #18 in this thread, you considered that J.F.Shew lenses from the mid 1850 did have Lerebours glass.

They have been included in the serial number list for some time. There is advertising copy that J.F.Shew sold Lerebours lenses.

The earlier orphan scratched lenses (starting from around serial number 2000 - 1845) look exactly like the "standard" lerebours system.
At this date, Lerebours did not have the status it had later in the century so it did not have a reputation to defend. All sales were important.
I doubt there will be any documentary evidence forecoming which will confirm these early use of Lerebours lenses by others.

I think Lerebours had much more status and relative importance in 1839/1845.
Do not forget that was in the earliest team with Bianchi, Giroux, Chevalier y Gaudin as Daguerre's camera/lenses maker/provider, a really early manufacturer of some advanced cameras and lenses, an early Voigtlander's retailer in France and then the first french maker of Petzval lenses, "Excursions Daguerriennes", "Traite de Photographie et...",
In 1850/1860 he was very popular and massive, but comparatively less important; and similar to many other manufacturers in terms of the quality and innovation of its products...
Check at "Histoire de la Photographie" by Lecuyer, "Theorie und Geschichte des photographischen Objektives" by Von Rohr or "History of Photography" by Eder among others....

goamules
2-Aug-2018, 19:09
Exactly. Lerebours et Secretan was the most important early photographic lens maker. Before most or all of the others. They even optimized the Petzval formula to be more corrected for the color spectrum. And Darlot was an apprentice at Lerebours, where he learned lens making. Early on, Lerebours et Secretan had the best status: exclusivity. They also were instrumental in producing the Petzval lens type that led to their early competitor's loss in the market (Chevalier and his failed lens).

Steven Tribe
3-Aug-2018, 08:49
I think Lerebours had much more status and relative importance in 1839/1845.
Do not forget that was in the earliest team with Bianchi, Giroux, Chevalier y Gaudin as Daguerre's camera/lenses maker/provider, a really early manufacturer of some advanced cameras and lenses, an early Voigtlander's retailer in France and then the first french maker of Petzval lenses, "Excursions Daguerriennes", "Traite de Photographie et...",
In 1850/1860 he was very popular and massive, but comparatively less important; and similar to many other manufacturers in terms of the quality and innovation of its products...
Check at "Histoire de la Photographie" by Lecuyer, "Theorie und Geschichte des photographischen Objektives" by Von Rohr or "History of Photography" by Eder among others....

Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.

anachromatic
3-Aug-2018, 17:16
Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.


Steven, Lerebours was making lenses with the Petzval design from 1842. He started as retailer of Voigtlander lenses and few months later he starts production of Petzval lenses. Lerebours early cameras(1839-1842)fits achromats lenses; maybe few cameras in 1842 fits the earliest Petzval lenses by Voigtlander and from 1842 in advance he sell cameras with Lerebours Petzval lenses.
Some samples from my collection coming soon....

goamules
3-Aug-2018, 17:25
Agreed! I had forgotten his literary contribution in the early days. Until 1845 he was only making single achromats and the Doomed Combine. The Petzval version came in 1845, when he became Lerebours et Secretan and started serial numbers. THe Petzval was not a major product until late in the late 1840's - as can be seen in the serial number / lens type list in this thread.

Actually, that is wrong. Lerebours was making Petzvals from the early 1840s, not late. According to the Vade Mecum, "He designed Petzval Portrait Lenses with improved colour correction in 1840." But I think that's about a year or so early. By 1842, yes many Petzvals were being built by Lerebours. He sold and recommended them in his 1843 Treatise (a 3rd edition guide and catalog), and the period journals are full of reports on using them. ("Double Objective" is a Petzval)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/862/43116124454_2d1f09a3e1_o.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1834/42929846545_f4025dcf44.jpg
A treatise on photography : containing the latest discoveries and improvements appertaining to the daguerreotype
(by Lerebours, 1843) here (https://ia800209.us.archive.org/33/items/treatiseonphotog00lere/treatiseonphotog00lere.pdf)

Steven Tribe
4-Aug-2018, 03:12
Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

Steven Tribe
4-Aug-2018, 03:20
[/U][/B]

Steven, Lerebours was making lenses with the Petzval design from 1842. He started as retailer of Voigtlander lenses and few months later he starts production of Petzval lenses. Lerebours early cameras(1839-1842)fits achromats lenses; maybe few cameras in 1842 fits the earliest Petzval lenses by Voigtlander and from 1842 in advance he sell cameras with Lerebours Petzval lenses.
Some samples from my collection coming soon....

I look forward to seeing these as you seem to be the only owner of a Lerebours (not Lerebours et Secretan!) Petzval!

anachromatic
4-Aug-2018, 04:27
Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

Steven,here you have some samples of Lerebours Petzval lenses(dit "Systeme Allemand") from circa 1842/1843. In the next replay, I added also pics of an original and really early Voigtlander petzval lens(serial #380) that is fitted on a really early Lerebours daguerreian camera(not a collodion camera!!) from adaguerreian set from late 1842/early 1843. Also a sort of "missing link" from the earliest Lerebours Petzval lenses to the regular Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses. This one is signed "Lerebours & Secretan" but has not serial number.
Finally some pics from the really 3th edition of Lerebours traite and Catalogue of May 1842.


2 Lerebours Petzval lenses(c.1842/1842) and 1 Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/NSfHdp.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnNSfHdpj)

Lerebours Petzval lens(c.2nd half of 1842) that comes from Marseille, France.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/BpZwTg.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmBpZwTgj)

Lerebours Petzval lens(c.2nd half/1st half 1843) that comes from UK.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/UCcY9V.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poUCcY9Vj)

Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number that comes from a daguerreian/collodion camera set sold in France
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/Rid8ha.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plRid8haj)

anachromatic
4-Aug-2018, 04:51
Yes, I was aware of the 1842/43 Lerebours publications and the lenses for Gaudin and "systeme allemand".
But where are these pre-serial number Petzvals? I haven't been able to find any in the Pont et Princelle booklet or even in Corrado's book.
I am also intrigued by figures 7 and 8 in the last post - and which is also reproduced on page 15 in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Is this really a very poor sketch of a Petzval - or is this a Verres Combines? Certainly, Pont et Princelle think it is a Verres Combines in the sketch!

Here the early Voitlander Petzval lens fitted on a Lerebours daguerreian camera(c. 1842/1843) and the Lerebours Traite and Catalogue from May 1842(3th edition).

Voigtlander Petzval lens serial #380 fitted on an early Lerebours daguerreian camera(c.1842/1843)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/AlwLo4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnAlwLo4j)

Lerebours Traite and Catalog from May of 1842
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/u1gQR4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plu1gQR4j)

Page of the May 1842 Lerebours Catalog where you can see the doubble lens or objectif "Systeme Allemand".....Petzval lens.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/M8266O.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnM8266Oj)

anachromatic
4-Aug-2018, 06:31
I look forward to seeing these as you seem to be the only owner of a Lerebours (not Lerebours et Secretan!) Petzval!

I have two early Petzvals made by Lerebours. I think one of them is really early....maybe late 1842. Both signed only "Lerebours" and with no serial number.

Steven Tribe
4-Aug-2018, 09:13
Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lens(c.1845) with no serial number that comes from a daguerreian/collodion camera set sold in France
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/Rid8ha.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plRid8haj)

The two Lerebours Petzvals are very impressive - pity there are no images of these in the few "standard" works.
I am not so sure about the one above - which is one of three "Lerebours & Secretan" sold through Flints last year. Very early 1845 production could be an explanation.

anachromatic
4-Aug-2018, 11:32
The two Lerebours Petzvals are very impressive - pity there are no images of these in the few "standard" works.
I am not so sure about the one above - which is one of three "Lerebours & Secretan" sold through Flints last year. Very early 1845 production could be an explanation.


No doubt about this lens, is something like a "missing link". Its morphology is closer to the very first Petzvals made by Lerebours but already corresponds to the period of the Lerebours & Secretan brand. Made certainly in 1845.
That sale was only the last link in a chain, the lens pops with a "fresh to the market" photographer set...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/n2PEtM.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pln2PEtMj)

anachromatic
7-Aug-2018, 10:15
[/I][/B]

No doubt about this lens, is something like a "missing link". Its morphology is closer to the very first Petzvals made by Lerebours but already corresponds to the period of the Lerebours & Secretan brand. Made certainly in 1845.
That sale was only the last link in a chain, the lens pops with a "fresh to the market" photographer set...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/n2PEtM.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pln2PEtMj)

God, what have bad memory!
Reviewing the information, I realized that I have in my collection, 3 more examples of Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number!
Two of them comes from the same photographer set that I post before. Pretty sure that the 4 lenses were a whole set of a daguerreotypist. Camera with big lens(maybe A. Millet) was added later.

3 more Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number.
The small one...from the daguerreotypist set.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/gJbUaw.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plgJbUawj)

The big one...from the daguerreotypist set too.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/4aQ36N.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po4aQ36Nj)


Big one but no proveneance info :-(
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/TuuHTB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnTuuHTBj)

anachromatic
7-Aug-2018, 10:21
And here the whole "team" of Lerebours and Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number...!
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/zxULbC.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmzxULbCj)

goamules
7-Aug-2018, 11:02
Excellent! These are very historic and rare lenses. Congratulations to you.

anachromatic
7-Aug-2018, 11:34
Garrett, thank you so much!

Duyfam
7-Aug-2018, 21:30
Hi everybody, I have very first Petzval made for A Gaudin by Lerebours. One mark "5" on the body, near rack and pinion, so It's the serial of this lens? Thanks!

181339 181340 181341

anachromatic
8-Aug-2018, 02:04
It is not the serial number. Normally, these small numbers identify some, or each lens part.

Duyfam
9-Aug-2018, 18:43
Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

181393

Amedeus
11-Aug-2018, 12:41
Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

181393

Agree with Anachromatic. I have a few barrels with single digit numbers that were part of tool identification, most of them are at the rack.

I have also few lenses with 4 digits stamped in and those I consider serial numbers.

Soooo, it all depends on the situation.

Cheers,

Amedeus
11-Aug-2018, 13:08
Just confirming that the lens Steven is talking about is also the lens I bought, so serial 2964.

The brass is indeed non-Lerebours. I have other lenses to compare with.

Few months ago I picked up a Lerebours & Secretan landscape lens with missing glass.

What appears to be the rear cell holder is different as it doesn't have any thread in it. Internal diameter is 85.5mm and it appears that's a receiver for a lens cell of some sorts.

So yes, I'll be milling that non-Lerebours brass down to fit the 85.5mm landscape lens receiver and assemble as such a functional landscape lens albeit with a different serial number on the glass (2964) as the barrel (4914) or 1950 units apart ;)

As for the landscape barrel, came with two washer stops, brass lens cap is missing and a few screws holding the pinion.

I'm clearly not a purist !

181421181422181423

Cheers,




Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for (probably UK based) makers who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

Remember that the achromats used in landscape lenses and the front cell in Petzvals were identica. 81mm was a popular size for Lerebours and most serial numbers in the 2000's are Landscapes - so perhaps the achromat was used in a UK landscape lens around 1846?

Steven Tribe
12-Aug-2018, 00:41
Hi anachromatic, Are you sure? Check the link below out. The number on that lens (same brand) is 4186 - too big number to identify any lens part.

link of this lens:
https://www.oldlens.com/gaudin%20petzval%20lens.html

181393

Whilst I am sure that the no. 5 is a size reference to the gears used in the tangential drive in your case, I have seen more than a couple of lenses marked with 4 digit numbers here - both of French and UK origin. Some have had makers/sellers initials at the same spot - some didn't! The "makers" were mostly hardly known and couldn't have made the number of lenses suggested by the serial number! Age looks to be around the 1850's.

Amedeus
15-Aug-2018, 17:44
Adding one more to this list

Serial 4664, Petzval, no WHS, still has lens cap but no flange. Two out of three elements marked with this serial number. Lens diameter ~60mm, didn't pull them out of the cells.

Serial 6821, Petzval, no WHS, no flange, no hood. Two out of three elements marked with the serial number. Lens diameter ~47mm, didn't pull them out of the cells. This lens is already on the list I believe.

Cheers,

Rudi

Steven Tribe
16-Aug-2018, 05:21
And here the whole "team" of Lerebours and Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number...!
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/zxULbC.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmzxULbCj)

I have to ask the obvious - did you check for any "rice" lens edge scratches on this collection?
It would be nice to have 2001, 2002 and 2003 on the serial number list!

I have added the 1/2 plate 4664 to the list.

anachromatic
16-Aug-2018, 15:15
I have other Lerebours lenses and they all have a serial number on the barrell, and the same serial number scratched on the glass edge:

An small Petzval #9783.
An small "paysage achromatique" #6984.
A big "paysage achromatique" #10536.
An stereoscopic Petzval #8813.
An stereoscopic "paysage achromatique" #8816.

But the 6 early Petzvals of the last photo, have no serial number or scratched number on the glass.

anachromatic
16-Aug-2018, 15:49
In addition, this lens has on the sunshade the address of "rue Bourbon le Château 2", an address in which Gaudin operated between 1855 and 1857 approximately.
If it was one of the first Gaudin lenses, the address would be "Faubourg Montmartre 56" or eventually "rue Montmartre 76".

Steven Tribe
27-Aug-2018, 07:04
I have done a minor clean-up on the serial number list in post #63. There have been quite a few additions this year. It seems to confirm that lens scratchings have always been standard for Lerebours et Secretan since the start of using serial numbers in 1845!

I havn't included the group of pre-serial number - engraved as - Lerebours & Secretan, which preceded the serial number lenses with the Lerebours et Secretan engraving.

I have looked more critically at the JFS (J.F.Shew) lenses I have with Lerebours serial number glass. There is a brass lens hood that has a very clear "JAMIN" stamping inside. I note that knurling on the hood matches the knurling on the front lens cell, so it not a question of a misplaced lens hood in the last 150 years! So perhaps the friendship between Lerebours and Jamin included supplying lenses for Jamin's enterprises in the early 1850.

Amedeus
10-Sep-2018, 16:33
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018

Confining that this lens has the rice writing on three lenses. There are pencil marks on the rear negative lens but it is firmly wedged in the holder and I've not been able to remove it yet without jeopardizing the glass. There was a number on the front achromat but that one is no longer complete/legible.

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
11-Sep-2018, 06:14
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018

Confining that this lens has the rice writing on three lenses. There are pencil marks on the rear negative lens but it is firmly wedged in the holder and I've not been able to remove it yet without jeopardizing the glass. There was a number on the front achromat but that one is no longer complete/legible.

Cheers,

I have added the new info about 6651! Glad it didn't disappear into the unknown! I was a low bidder early on and a "best offer" participant. I was in London during the showdown.

Steven Tribe
8-Feb-2019, 09:36
2046 added (Sorry about the delay) as well as 4381.
I'll bring the serial number listing forward sometime this weekend as it back on page 6 now.
I think I have found another UK lens seller who used Lerebours glass in the 1850's.

Amedeus
11-Feb-2019, 21:19
Lerebours 9116 with matching glass rice writing confirmed ... glass diameter 115mm ... 500mm, f4.5

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
6-Apr-2019, 04:20
The old list was way back on page 6, so this time I have moved it forward in front of all the posts about lerebours and the non-serial number and alternative early engravings post of last year.
Note that I have suggested that the apparent missing numbers between 5541 to 6422 could be a bulk disposal through other outlets, which we know was the case just after this date.
They could perhaps make lenses, but had lost their brass turning facilities.



This an attempt to put some order into known Lerebours et Secretan lenses in terms of consecutive serial numbers and (hopefully) some dates. Confirmed foreign agent sales (just J.F.Shew of London at the moment) will also included when there is a serial number.

This is the current most reliable allocation of serial numbers to dates. The start at 2,000 looks realistic and the production (Under different names) before 1845 could have been around 2,000.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them (Pont et Princelle) is 2012 and highest is 12609! So total production is around 10,000 lenses with serial numbers.

Sources include lenses mentioned in this thread, auction records, own lenses, Corrado's book and the lenses illustrated in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Lenses without descriptions are Petzvals. SRC means lens scratching identified! Cup means the presence (or evidence) of the insert washer stop system.

1845
XXXXno serial number. ordinary Petzval - late WHS but full engraving retained. Antiq photo paris.
2012 mentioned by P et P - but not shown
2046 Mounted achromat from 81mm Petzval. SRC first example?
2113 1/2 plate size SRC
2125. Complex lid landscape
2140. cup landscape (variant type)
2323. verre combine design cup
2708. Complex lid landscape
3237 small petzval no WHS
3492. cup
3636
3811.
4008. cup - later WHS -ebay listing
4093. cup
4381. small petzval. SCR ( Digits are more separated than later serial numbers and larger - visable on Ebay listing feb 2019
4391. cup (ebay listing)Fabrice
4437 Pill box landscape
4655
4664. 1/2 plate Petzval no WHS ( so sold with cup aperture system)
4675. Petzval Spira. Collection. SCR but with number4668
4993 Petzval no WHS (cup aperture lost) antiq-photo paris

1850?

5250. 1/2 plate Whs
5334 cup
5541. cup
5685. petzval Spira collection SCR
There is a very big gap here. Considering that we know that Lerebours used alternative sales after this period, I think that perhaps most of these missing numbers were used in a way that has yet to be discovered
6422. Pill box landscape
6426. J.F.Shew import landscape SCR
6477. J.F.Shew import SCR
6582. Whs. Single surface with SCR. Rear cell splits into two sections. No Lerebours
writing but achromat has clear pencil writing " Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street
London 61+2". Must be 1855 or earlier as company was short lived.
6628 J.F.Shew import SCR
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018 3 lens surfaces have
SCR
6821. both sides of the same rear lens have SCR. No WH Slot. 1/4 plate size.
6984. small landscape SCR
7081. J.F.Shew import
7093 Identical landscape with pill box - same as 6426. antik-photo paris.
7556. large petzval SCR but different numbers 7815 added WHStops.
7696. hood lost
7799. cup & seal intact SCR
7815. see serial number 7556
7927. Whs

1855?

8169. 1/4 plate. hood & cup insert present. No WHS. Ebay august 2018.
8247. Pill box landscape
8249. Whs
8323. cup
8454. cup engraved with dealer "john Mawson Newcastle" so it passed through his hands before 1860 as he formed a partnership with Joseph Swan in 1860.*
8519. no Whs!
8572. landscape
8648. whs
8813 stereo Petzval SCR
8816. stereo Landscape SCR
8916. cup
8941. cup
9116 large Petzval SCR
9436. pill box landscape
9442. cup and SCR
9675. landscape cup
9764. pill box landscape
9783. small Petzval SCR
98(37?) pill box landscape ebay risting
10127. stereoset landscape cup
10402. cup
10536. Large pill box Landscape SCR
10855. pill box landscape

1860?

11358. Whs
11569. Whs
11773. Whs
11779. Whs
12006
12103. Whs
12157 pill box landscape
12309. pill box landscape antiq photo paris
12334. pill box landscape
12609

* John Mawson was blown up in a nitro-glicerene explosion outside Newcastle (He was also Sheriff of Newcastle) when supervising its disposal in December 1867!. Joseph Swan (the junior partner) became a major contributer to wet-plate, bromide papers, carbon printing etc. He also beat Edison by a year in his electric light bulb patent!

I think it is clear from the distribution of serial numbers after about 1850, that Lerebours did not produce very many lenses for a period - at least the brasswork. It looks like he could still produce glass - or had a good stock of lenses. These appear to have "dumped" on the nearest big market - London - which was without the political problems in France. We know about J.F.Shew and Bland & Long, but there are likely others to be discovered.

tymeorama
7-May-2019, 06:28
191049191050191051191052
Hi, I just got a Lerebours & Secretan lens, the serial number is 7492. I got it on a 2nd hand website in France, but I didn't managed to get any informations about this lens. It has the rice number serial number (see next post)

tymeorama
7-May-2019, 06:29
191053191054
What was unexpected for me is that the rice writing-serial number is seen twice on the back lenses (inside and outside)

Steven Tribe
7-May-2019, 13:20
Yes, I have seen another with a lens with both surfaces marked.
I have added this lens to the sn/data list.

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to mention that our good friend Grubb of Dublin engraved the edges of his aplanatic lens in the same way - or at least, some of them. Text was "Grubb Patent XXXX".

If you don't have access to an early catalogue, measure the focal length and/Or the glass diameter and someone will give more information!

tymeorama
8-May-2019, 04:18
If you don't have access to an early catalogue, measure the focal length and/Or the glass diameter and someone will give more information!
Here are the dimensions of my lens:
Mount thread: M68x0.5 mm
Lens hood thread: M61x0.5 mm
Front lens diameter: approx. 52.5 mm
Back lens diameter: approx. 55 mm
Total length: approx.102.3mm

Steven Tribe
8-May-2019, 04:48
This is a 1/4 plate (CdeV) Petzval of 12cm focal length and will cover 9x12cm. Made around 1854. This could be a "back" focal length (measured from the rear of the looong petzval!) rather than the real focal length.
The lens dimensions for the smaller sizes are pretty constant for all french makers.
1/6 plate 44mm
1/4 plate 54mm
1/2 plate 61mm

tymeorama
9-May-2019, 05:24
Thanks Steven! I have basically no knowledge in large format photography :do you have any link that explain the 1/4 plate thing? I started to look at the articles I've found in this forum, but I hadn't find yet an easy explanation of this.

Steven Tribe
9-May-2019, 05:29
Here is a start :
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?14666-Plate-Sizes&highlight=plate+sizes

Steven Tribe
12-May-2019, 14:22
Something new of some interest, perhaps.
We have a problem with Lerebours et Secretan's missing serial numbers (both the scratched lenses sold in other's brass, as well as a quite long sequence of missing serial numbers). I have made the suggestion that they may have lost their brass machining facility for a period. But perhaps they lost their supplier of brass tubing?

This could be an explanation of the strange lens below. That L & S sacrificed completed brass Petzvals to make, perhaps 2 landscape lenses. Normally, I would have said that the modification is not original - that the lens had lost its rear pair and the original barrel had been cut down, fitted with the front fixture to look like a typical French landscape lens.

But the "conversion" looks very professional. So perhaps L & S still had a brass working workshop, but were cut off from obtaining new tubing?

Later:
This is, of course, a sleeve - rather than an original barrel, which has been fitted up with internal threads to take an (oversize) lens cell and an end cap.

Amedeus
13-May-2019, 12:44
Hi Steven,

Good catch ... talk about cannibalizing.

Agreed that this looks like it's coming out of the factory. Or someone broke the Petzval and conversion to landscape was all that was covered under warranty ... ;) ... just fun to think about it !

Cheers,

goamules
20-May-2019, 08:09
191053191054
What was unexpected for me is that the rice writing-serial number is seen twice on the back lenses (inside and outside)
I can't remember if I ever commented on this, since discovering the tiny serial numbers. But Steven did. Maybe their purpose is to aid keeping the two rear lenses together for assembly. I believe the refractive index varies slightly even with the same type of glass, crown and flint. So when the lens grinder makes the curves he has to optimize each surface for that particular lens pair. Depending on how these were finished (put in brass mounts), they may have wanted to make sure the pairs remained together.

So that begs a question: if a Lerebours has the scratched serial on one lens, is it always on the other? My number 5038 does. I'll have to pull out my other to see.

Steven Tribe
21-May-2019, 00:36
I have seen just about all possible combinations of scratched serial numbers, both on standard L et S lenses and the known UK users of their glass (Shew and Long) but the outer surfaces seem to be most common.

There was a lot of variation in refractive indices in delivered glass blocks to lens makers. I only have knowledge from the workshop photos which were made which show shelves of glass blocks of different diameters. I don't think we have enough data to find out whether there were production series of the same Petzval/Landscape size with consecutive serial numbers. We know from Dallmeyers record that this was certainly the case with this larger volume maker who made to stock, rather than pressing customer demand.

The concept of having a number of curve formers for all of surfaces (8 in all) to allow for variation in two types of glass sounds like a production nightmare, but our "resident experts" must explain how it could be done?

goamules
22-May-2019, 11:25
I know the glass would be selected for it's refractive indices. So perhaps there was a table, "for crown 1-3, use flint 7....for crown 4-6, use flint 8..." which would help them compensate and have similar curves ground. I also know that as they got closer to the final curve, they'd finish it by using different instruments. So each lens pair would be tested, ground some more, tested again. But that kind of blows my theory that it as for "during production", because they'd grind off the numbers if they had to do another pass. But it could be to keep them together afterwards, when getting installed in the brass. And it indicates to the mounters that the grind was complete. Just making educated guesses.

Amedeus
22-May-2019, 15:28
I believe the serial numbers were only there to keep a set together for assembly in a barrel. It is the combination of the different focal lengths that determines the ultimate focal length of the assembly. So there is some variation allowed from cell to cell as it is the combination of both cells that sets it in the end.

I'm with Garrett that mixing and matching of crown and flint was most likely a consideration as not doing it will affect FL significantly requiring intervention at more levels than necessary.

Serial production was so much more efficient as you didn't have to constantly change tooling. Dallmeyer was definitely one of them.


The concept of having a number of curve formers for all of surfaces (8 in all) to allow for variation in two types of glass sounds like a production nightmare, but our "resident experts" must explain how it could be done?

Cheers,

Amedeus
22-May-2019, 23:30
So that begs a question: if a Lerebours has the scratched serial on one lens, is it always on the other? My number 5038 does. I'll have to pull out my other to see.

All mine have two serial numbers, one of them has three serial numbers.

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
23-May-2019, 15:05
If I had seen this item on ebay in march.
If I had bid and won it.

- What would I have found on the two lenses?

The superb stereo set has just a single serial number on one lens.
Would both lenses have identical scratched serial numbers? If so, would there be extra information to prevent mixing up matched pairs of cells?

Amedeus
24-May-2019, 09:13
If I had seen this item on ebay in march.
If I had bid and won it.

- What would I have found on the two lenses?

The superb stereo set has just a single serial number on one lens.
Would both lenses have identical scratched serial numbers? If so, would there be extra information to prevent mixing up matched pairs of cells?

I expect each lens to have a different serial number in this case like other stereoscopic lenses I've seen.

Cheers,

Amedeus
23-Jul-2019, 12:13
Serial 4602, half plate Petzval, no WHS, rice writing on all three lenses but have not been able to remove the lenses out of the cells. Solid jam, may be later. There's writing visible on the front achromat but mostly smudged and not readable without disassembly.

Cheers,

goamules
25-Jul-2019, 12:58
If you can read a date on the edge that would be great. So many lerebours have the serial numbers, but no way to tie them to a date.

Amedeus
22-Aug-2019, 14:59
Serial #10173,

Large (81mm diameter lenses) Petzval, no SRC (none expected with this serial number).

Front achromat seems to be re-glued a few times. Pencil marks all smeared out.

Rear negative lens not removable as the lens cell was slightly burnished at some point.

No WHS, no cup, restrictor still in place, beautiful specimen.