heip identify my 12" dagor lens

[JWC]

I have a 12 inch dagor lens marked Goerz Dagor F6.8 Focus 12 in. No 312455. It is mounted in a #4 Compound shutter. The shutter speed dial is marked Bausch & Lomb Optical Co. Rochester. N.Y. U.S.A. No.4.

My question is, who manufactured the lens, where and when was it manufactured? Does the fact that it is mounted in a Bausch & Lomb shutter mean that it is one of the dreaded Bausch & Lomb remounts?

Thanks.

[Mark Sampson]

There is some Goerz s/n information in the lenses section found on the front page of this site. AFAIK, there's no such thing as a 'dreaded Bausch & Lomb remount'; you're probably thinking of Burke & James. B&L had the patent to make Zeiss lenses for the USA, I don't believe they ever made any Goerz designs. Your lens may have been remounted into a Compound that once held a B&L lens. It's a murky subject, though, and with any luck, one of the real experts/historians around here will be able to shed more light.

[carverlux]

I have a 12 inch dagor lens marked Goerz Dagor F6.8 Focus 12 in. No 312455. It is mounted in a #4 Compound shutter. The shutter speed dial is marked Bausch & Lomb Optical Co. Rochester. N.Y. U.S.A. No.4.

My question is, who manufactured the lens, where and when was it manufactured? Does the fact that it is mounted in a Bausch & Lomb shutter mean that it is one of the dreaded Bausch & Lomb remounts?

Thanks.

I think it would be much easier to be helpful if you posted a picture of the engravings on the lens.

My best guess would be that it was an American lens made by C. P. Goerz American Optical Company around 1913. Goerz did mount Compound shutters to their lenses during that period. Compound Shutters were imported by Bausch & Lomb into the US during that time so many were marked with their name on the shutter, even if it had been fiitted to a Goerz lens. Therefore it is entirely possible for this combination to be original.

As for "remounts", AFAIK Bausch & Lomb in Rochester did not do them for anything other than their own lenses. It was Burke & James in Chicago that did them for any lens, and from what I have personally experienced, many of these were not even technically "remounts" but a lens that says it is one thing but nothing from it - glass, barrel, iris, engravings - came from the original factory. I have come across quite a few lenses that fit this description so you are right to be careful.

Authenticating the barrel is relatively easy, but trying to prove what glass is in your vintage lens and whether it is ground true to the original design is not so easy. Imagine back in the days when there was no internet, no emailing hi-res digital pictures around, no forums like LFF and very few truth in advertising laws, how would you know what you have is original and will perform as you expected other than the word of the traveling salesman who came to your studio or a flimsy line drawing on newsprint in a catalog?

This phenomenon of "remounts" has certainly prompted me to be very cautious about buying vintage lenses. Over the years, with more user reports and debates here in LFF and other forums, it has become easier to identify what's original and what's not; but debates still rage on, especiallly when someone just plunked down good money for what may not be what they'd hoped. Again, the more pictures you can show about the lens in question, the more accurate the feedback will be.

Good luck,
Carver

[JWC]

Thanks for your responses. Here are a few photos of the lens in question. Any further information you can give me will be highly appreciated.

[IanG]

My late 30's 12" AM Opt Dagor is in the same shutter but marked Goerz, that was the only shutter option Goerz offered, there's always the possibility the shutter itself been switched in recent years.

Dagors were only made by Goerz themselves, the sons owned Goerz Am Opt and were US citizens before 1913. So in the 1914-18 Great War the sons were making & selling lenses to the US military and the father to the Germans.

Ross in the UK manufactured Dagors up until WWI.

Check the serial number of the Compound shutter, it was made by Deckel so the serial number dates should match the Compurs.

Ian

[Paul Fitzgerald]

It looks like an American Goerz but someone has changed your speed dial.

American Optical is older than B&L and they bought American Goerz in the 1940's?, they still do business with Todd/AO today

B&L was licensed to built compound shutters from Deckel

American Goerz used both Deckel and B&L shutters, Wollensak and Ilex also

[Jim Galli]

I think Carverlux is probably right. I also think the Burke & James "Berlin Dagor" lenses get a bad rap. None of them are worth large $$$ unless they're late, coated, Gold Rim etc. I'm always glad to have any Goerz Dagor in my bag if it takes nice pictures. :cool:

[IanG]

It looks like an American Goerz but someone has changed your speed dial.

American Optical is older than B&L and they bought American Goerz in the 1940's?, they still do business with Todd/AO today

B&L was licensed to built compound shutters from Deckel

American Goerz used both Deckel and B&L shutters, Wollensak and Ilex also

The Goerz company in the US became C.P. Goerz American Optical in 1905 when the sons business became a separate company to their fathers.

The company continued trading under that name until bought by the US subsidiary of Schneider in the 1970's.

Bausch & Lomb pre-dates all Goerz companies by many years asi t was founded in 1852.

American Optical is an entirely different company to CP Goerz American Optical, and they never made Goerz lenses.

Ian