Rodenstock Sinar Schneider Linhof

[swmcl]

Hi,

I am aware of the relationship between Schneider and Linhof and am just wondering if its equivalent might be Rodenstock Sinar.

Schneider Linhof lenses command a better price than just the Schneider lens even though I can't find any MTF curves to compare the Schneider-Linhof lens to the straight Schneider lens. So from my perspective I must take the word of others on the supposed benefits.

I am however able to view Rodenstock lens data quite easily. This makes me trust Rodenstock more than Schneider who only put out glossy brochures as far as I can see. Perhaps their specs can't beat Rodenstock ... ? Surely if they could beat Rodenstock they'd be crowing about it ?

Anyways ... is the Sinar connection any guarantee of optical nirvana in any way?

Rgds,

[Brian Ellis]

Where have you been looking for information about Schneider lenses? Schneider puts out a massive amount of information about its lenses, both those currently in production and those out of production. In the U.S. it's at www.schneideroptics.com, you surely can access the same information from Australia. I haven't looked for Rodenstock information in quite a while but back when I did the situation was actually the reverse from what you describe, i.e. Rodenstock provided almost no information and Schneider had a huge amount.

In general there isn't a significant difference between Schneider and Rodenstock lenses of the same design, at least not to a point that one consistently "beats" the other in a significant way. Both companies make excellent lenses.

The only relationship I know of between Schneider and Linhof is that Linhof used Schneider lenses for its so-called "Linhof Select" lenses, which were lenses picked from the Schneider production line and then tested further and modified in some respects I've now forgotten. But whatever benefit there was from being "Linhof Select" lenses when they left the factory, at least in terms of closer tolerances and things like that, has likely been dissipated by the time they've been used for a period of years. So IMHO it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay more for a used Linhof Select lens though I know people do.

[swmcl]

Thanks Brian,

I still can't find what I'm looking for ... now I'm singing it!

I did look at the site mentioned but I'm still seeing brochures in the page

https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/photography.htm

Not to worry.

I have also seen in an other site a mention of a lab at Linhof but I can't see anybody saying they've been to a lab at Sinar.

Thanks again,

[Arne Croell]

Linhof sold(sells?) both Schneider and Rodenstock lenses as Linhof select lenses, which is essentially another quality control step at the Linhof plant. The lenses are then labeled with the Linhof script in addition to the makers name.
Sinar has a line of lenses under their own name, "Sinaron", which are manufactured by Rodenstock and are equivalent to the Rodenstock lines (make a search here and you'll find which one is which, its not straightforward). However, Sinar is the only name on there. Whether that entails another QC step, I don't know, but it is likely. Before they had the Sinaron line, Sinar followed the Linhof example and engraved their own name next to the makers name for their "select" lenses. I have a Schneider Angulon that has that inscription (in green).

[swmcl]

Thank you doctor.

You'd think the Sinaron would be a specially selected lens. Sinar are a company which seeks to offer high-end products. Simply rebadging wouldn't do the Sinar image much good.

I hope someone can speak from experience about the Sinaron QC process.

Have found a link or two to some Schneider MTF pdfs but can't seem to browse ...

Why make it hard ??

Grumpy's off to get a cuppa ...

[Lachlan 717]

Steve,

Not sure if this will help you, but I was in Ted's Camera store a few weeks ago and saw a lady buying a Leica D-Lux 4. Well over a grand. I had a little
snigger to myself, as she could've bought 2 Lumix LX3s for the same price. Thing is (if you aren't familiar with these models of compact digitals), they're the same camera except for the red Leica badge. Same lens, same sensor, same processor.

I have no doubt that she is brand-fixated - a Marketer's dream. Someone who'll pay twice for a brand name.

Whilst I'm sure there is a theoretic difference in the lenses you ask about, I doubt you'd ever see a difference.

Buy the "standard" and get another focal length or a couple of years' supply of film!

[Tim Povlick]

Thanks Brian,

I still can't find what I'm looking for ... now I'm singing it!

I did look at the site mentioned but I'm still seeing brochures in the page

Thanks again,

Hi Steve,

I had a difficult time finding datasheets for Schneider until I figured out their website. Each datasheet is under the particular lens. One goes to Photography tab, Large Format, then the lens family and then the particular lens. Once on a lens page, choose the Technical datasheets tab:

https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=164&IID=1832


Best Regards,

Tim

[Darin Boville]

I've never believed the Linhof/Sinar rumors that the branded lenses were somehow superior to the regular lenses. Has there ever been any data to support this?

Upon even quick reflection it doesn't make much sense--how would a company that makes a high quality, machined piece of equipment (Linhof, Sinar) even know what the technical standards are for a lens let alone have standards that exceed those of the optical company?

Are we to imagine that there are hundreds of Linhof employees and they have a sub-team dedicated to optics?

On the Leica forums they will insist that picts from the re-badged Leica Panasonics are better than regular Panasonics because Leica has Panasonic incorporate superior processing into their version of the camera. (As if Leica's expertise in electronic imaging trumps Panasonic's.) Even when shown clear evidence that the output is identical they will still insist this to be true. It's an amazing experiment.

--Darin

[Oren Grad]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29981

[Bob Salomon]

I've never believed the Linhof/Sinar rumors that the branded lenses were somehow superior to the regular lenses. Has there ever been any data to support this?

Upon even quick reflection it doesn't make much sense--how would a company that makes a high quality, machined piece of equipment (Linhof, Sinar) even know what the technical standards are for a lens let alone have standards that exceed those of the optical company?

Are we to imagine that there are hundreds of Linhof employees and they have a sub-team dedicated to optics?

On the Leica forums they will insist that picts from the re-badged Leica Panasonics are better than regular Panasonics because Leica has Panasonic incorporate superior processing into their version of the camera. (As if Leica's expertise in electronic imaging trumps Panasonic's.) Even when shown clear evidence that the output is identical they will still insist this to be true. It's an amazing experiment.

--Darin
Linhof, and Sinar, purchased the water cooled, room filling, Rodenstock Siemens Star projector. In Linhof's case a technician first inspects every Rodenstock and Schneider lens by hand with a high power loupe to find any dirt, grit, dust inside the lens that can not be easily cleaned by a technician. If the lens does not pass that test it is returned to the manufacturer. If it passes the shutter is then tested for proper performance, if it flunks it is returned to the manufacturer. The lenses and shutters that have passed those tests are then sent on to the Siemens Star projector and the lens is clamped in place in the projector. The projector then projects a series of Siemens Stars across the wall of the test room. An engineer stands at the wall at the outer limits of the area the lens is designed to cover. He has a remote control in his hand with which he can rotate the lens. This instanly displays and problems such as an uncentered lens. Some lense sperform particularly well over the area that a Linhof Technorama 617 SIII or 612 II used for and those lenses are set aside for use on those specific cameras. While those lenses are superior performers over the arear of the 617 or 612 they may have problems which would make them unsuitable for use on a view camera.

Lenses passing the Siemens Star test are then branded with the Linhof logo on either the front or rear rim of the lens (depends on how much room is left on the rim after the Rodenstock or Schneider info on the rim) and is put into Linhof's inventory. Lenses that do not pass the test are returned to the manufacturer.

All lenses that Linhof tests have already passed whatever tests and controls that the lens manufacturers put their lenses through. Linhof just performs a more stringent test on 100% of the lenses that they sell. The lenses that are returned do go to market under the manufacturer's branded name after whatever bothered Linhof is corrected to be within specs.

So Linhof is simply filtering out the best of the best. And they charge for it.

[rdenney]

We've been told that Linhof Select lenses did indeed go through an extra testing process at the Linhof plant to ensure that they met Linhof's stricter standards. This practice started back when Schneider (and most manufacturers) didn't have the quality control that they have enjoyed for some decades now.

Sinar did not, as far as I know.

When Sinar was buying Sinar-branded lenses from Rodenstock, however, the quality control of those lenses had improved to the point where further testing was probably superfluous. There may be sub-standard examples of 50's-era Super Angulons and Symmars, but I would expect many fewer sub-standard examples of more modern Schneider or Rodenstock lenses.

Sinar branded their own lenses partly for marketing reasons, but also partly to identify lenses for which their particular DBS mounts had been specifically designed.

I have a Sinaron-S 210/5.6 that could just as easily say Rodenstock APO-Sironar-N. I'd be just as happy to own it if it did, and I did not pay extra for the Sinar brand.

Rick "noting that Sinar has also rebranded Schneider lenses" Denney

[Oren Grad]

Rick "noting that Sinar has also rebranded Schneider lenses" Denney

Zeiss lenses too, albeit only medium format ones, mounted for the Sinar m camera.

[swmcl]

Thanks Tim!

I've been struggling with this for a while now ... my intuition is different to just about everyone elses!

Cheers,

[Lachlan 717]

So, the objective, repeatable, scientific analysis is a bloke standing in front of a projector?

I have heard the theory that you shouldn't buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday, as the Monday cars are made by people tired, possibly hung over and generally not in the mood to concentrate. The Friday cars are put together by people whose only thought is getting out of the joint to start the weekend.

Wonder if the guy standing in front of the Linhof projector suffers the same human foibles?

Think I'll stick to the regular lenses, unless, of course, I'm going to be shooting Siemens stars…

And go buy myself some film with the savings.


Linhof, and Sinar, purchased the water cooled, room filling, Rodenstock Siemens Star projector. In Linhof's case a technician first inspects every Rodenstock and Schneider lens by hand with a high power loupe to find any dirt, grit, dust inside the lens that can not be easily cleaned by a technician. If the lens does not pass that test it is returned to the manufacturer. If it passes the shutter is then tested for proper performance, if it flunks it is returned to the manufacturer. The lenses and shutters that have passed those tests are then sent on to the Siemens Star projector and the lens is clamped in place in the projector. The projector then projects a series of Siemens Stars across the wall of the test room. An engineer stands at the wall at the outer limits of the area the lens is designed to cover. He has a remote control in his hand with which he can rotate the lens. This instanly displays and problems such as an uncentered lens. Some lense sperform particularly well over the area that a Linhof Technorama 617 SIII or 612 II used for and those lenses are set aside for use on those specific cameras. While those lenses are superior performers over the arear of the 617 or 612 they may have problems which would make them unsuitable for use on a view camera.

Lenses passing the Siemens Star test are then branded with the Linhof logo on either the front or rear rim of the lens (depends on how much room is left on the rim after the Rodenstock or Schneider info on the rim) and is put into Linhof's inventory. Lenses that do not pass the test are returned to the manufacturer.

All lenses that Linhof tests have already passed whatever tests and controls that the lens manufacturers put their lenses through. Linhof just performs a more stringent test on 100% of the lenses that they sell. The lenses that are returned do go to market under the manufacturer's branded name after whatever bothered Linhof is corrected to be within specs.

So Linhof is simply filtering out the best of the best. And they charge for it.

[Frank Petronio]

I prefer buying the Linhof or Sinar branded lenses since I am patient and get them at reasonable prices, I won't pay anything extra really. But given the choice, why not? I've never gotten a bad one.

[Arne Croell]

So, the objective, repeatable, scientific analysis is a bloke standing in front of a projector?

I have heard the theory that you shouldn't buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday, as the Monday cars are made by people tired, possibly hung over and generally not in the mood to concentrate. The Friday cars are put together by people whose only thought is getting out of the joint to start the weekend.

Wonder if the guy standing in front of the Linhof projector suffers the same human foibles?

Think I'll stick to the regular lenses, unless, of course, I'm going to be shooting Siemens stars…

And go buy myself some film with the savings.

I've seen that projector demonstrated at a Linhof workshop in the early 1990's, including the demonstration of typical defects like centering problems. At the magnification they were using, problems were really easy to see. So in my opinion the possibility of human error, while not zero, is quite small - and this is, as Bob pointed out, a second inspection after the original manufacturers QC.
I think the early Zeiss LF lenses like the 135mm Planar, 75mm Biogon etc. were always labeled Linhof as they were sold only through them, not for other cameras, but Bob may correct me on this.
For the record, I own both Linhof labeled lenses, and lenses directly from the manufacturer.